1911 S & W 22/32 Bekeart VS 1911 Colt 22 Police Positive T Revolver

I am seeing S & W manufactured 1911 22/32 Berkart for sale and a Colt 22 Police Positive 22 also made in 1911 both in excellent condition. Both target models. Similar in price and condition.

I know nothing about guns this old. Can someone shed some light on these two firearms before I start Googling?

Not much help here. I have a 22/32 HFT and it just fits me better. I've had the Colt in the past, but sold it. Both shot well, but the 22/32 just felt more natural.

I'm a Smith guy too. Never even owned a colt but most of that is because I couldn't afford them back in the day. Talking early 70's Python days. I only have collected large caliber Smith's but some of these older guns are starting to intrigue me. Thanks.

AC Man: How about an opinion from a guy who never owned either one of these? But I am a Smith man and my experience with a lot of S&Ws says a Bekeart would be fine as long as you have examined it carefully. Most of these are called Bekearts, but only a quantity of them were actually ordered by B. Others here would be able to tell you how to know. The true Bekearts are worth more money. I have had several Colt Police Positives but not a .22. I have a .32 Colt New Police (same as .32 S&W Long) and it works well. I think the Police Positive is a good design and it was popular for police work as a .38 S&W and later as a . 38 Special. It is built on a medium frame and with barrels 4 in. or shorter work pretty well as a pocket gun. Most PPs had fixed sights but there was a target model with adjustable sights. It was made in all calibers but the .22 is the most common. And, it also brings a premium in the collector market.

Seems to me the equivalent Colt that was supposed to compete with a Bekert model would have been the Officer's Model Target. The Police Positives probably shoot just as well, but the fit and finish on an Officer's Model is a notch above the PP.

Not sure why I say this but I would recommend the S&W .22/32 HFT. This I frame .22 caliber revolver built on the .32 caliber frame is the precursor to the mid 1930's K 22's and was considered HEAVY because it replaced the M frame Ladysmith .22 revolver that was very small. The interesting thing is that nearing the end of the production run of this model S&W shortened the barrel from 6" to 4" and sold it as the "Kit Gun". So what was a new larger arm replacing an older smaller one, once more became a smaller arm.....

The first run of 1,050 are numbered in the 138XXX and 139XXX serial range. The next run appears to be in the 160XXX range and then the 490 that went to M.W. Robinson in 1914 are in the 207XXX to 208XXX range.

Bekeart only received 294 from the first run so a little over 750 went to other S&W customers of the day. Bekeart is credited with this new design so collectors refer to these as the Bekeart model and the 294 that shipped to him in San Francisco will usually command a higher price.

To the founders of S&W, COLT is a 4 letter word!!!!

So the only Beakert model is the 294 shipped to him in 1911 even though others the same 1911 manufactured guns shipped elsewhere were not? That doesn't make sense

The terminology is Bekaert Model. Those actually shipped to Bekaert are rarities. Those who went elsewhere, not so much. I believe true collectors recognize four categories if the 22/32s. True Bekaerts are in the most desirable category.

I once had a Colt Police Positive revolver in .22. Except mine was chambered in .22 WRF. It was a neat gun, but not a target gun. It had a pair of MOP grips on it. In fact that is the only .22 PP I ever remember seeing. I don’t think they are very common. I would probably go for the PP if I had to choose.

22/32 Heavy Frame Target for me ...

22/32 Heavy Frame Target for me ...

My ID says it all.

Bekeart

depends on what you are buying for

I believe that what gun you "should" buy depends a lot on why you are buying a 100 + year old revolver for. If for collecting then the S&W HFT beats out the Colt Police Positive Target (I assume from the OP post title that the T means Target).

Just 1 major website has 2 full pages of the Colt PP, many are Target, even in mentioned "mint" condition...most are in the $380 to $600 range.

If you're just looking for a fun shooter, either one would work well, but the Colt would win on price.

If the grips are numbered on the butt with a separate number then the one you are looking at MAY be a true Beakart. If no number (even if made in 1911) it may not be. Mine was made and shipped in 1915 and I wouldn't consider less than $1,200 if I were to sell.

Of course...this is a S&W Forum....so I am biased. Either way you end up, be sure to buy the gun and not the story..check provenance carefully. Do either come with a Factory Letter? Are they in the exact configuration as when they shipped (grips, sights, bbl length, finish)? Both mechanically sound?

Drop back and let us know how it goes....even if you go for the prancing pony brand....we love pics and some of us even dabble in the Colts.

The terminology is Bekaert Model

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Just to be correct it is spelled BEKEART

So the only Beakert model is the 294 shipped to him in 1911 even though others the same 1911 manufactured guns shipped elsewhere were not? That doesn't make sense

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Again it is BEKEART

The first run was 1,050. 294 went to Bekeart in 6 shipments and are considered "True Bekearts" by collectors. He also received some in the second run that are also Bekearts but collectors refer to these as a lower grade since they weren't in the first 6 shipments. I suppose if one was real anal you could grade the guns from the first 6 shipments as from shipment #1, #2 etc.

Some collectors feel that any gun with the imprint number has some level of Bekeartness.

If the grips are numbered on the butt with a separate number then the one you are looking at MAY be a true Beakart. If no number (even if made in 1911) it may not be

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This statement is true and not true. All 1050 of the first run have the 4 digit assembly order number imprinted into the left stock bottom. So yes with an imprint number it could have gone to Bekeart but not necessarily as only 294 of the 1050 did.

"If no number (even if made in 1911) it may not be."

This is incorrect, all of the first run of 1050, made in 1911, have the imprint number. There are NO guns made of this model in 1911 without the imprint. Realistically, these imprint numbers would be 1-1050 based on the order in which the gun was assembled.

The next run appears in the 160XXX serial number block and assuming another run of 1050 would have imprint numbers of 1051-2100

A third run includes the 490 sequentially serial numbered guns that went to M.W. Robinson that shipped in in 5 shipments in early 1914. Unfortunately we don't know how many were in this run and according to my database, the highest recorded imprint number to date is 2582.

It is possible that assuming a first run of 1050, a second run of 1050 and a third run for M.W. Robinson of 490 we have a total of 2590. That sure seems to coincide with the highest recorded imprint number that I have observed of 2582.

Of course this is pure speculation on my part but seems to fit.

After the M.W.Robinson guns from the 207XXX and 208XXX serial blocks, the next to show up appear in the 220XXX range in late 1914. From this block forward all the way up into the 1940's I show no additional guns with the imprint number except a few fliers that I believe are wearing misplaced stocks from one of these first three runs.

I hope that clears up some of the confusion.

Just an FYI - I don't own either a Colt PP or a Colt Officer's Model Target. I do own a descendant (grandchild maybe?) of the Bekeart Model, the S&W Model 35. There are about 90 of each Colt variant on both GB and GI for sale all the time. Personally I think the S&W is far superior and the market agrees.