PRE Victory S&W 38 Special 1941?

Hi,
I'm new to collecting military revolvers. When I purchased this firearm, I was told it was a PRE- Victory M&P circa 1941.
Questions about a Smith and Wesson M&P.

Is this PRE or POST Victory model. The dealer I purchased this from told me it was PRE Victory model around 1941.

Many posts have said That if this revolver were “POST” the Serial Number would be preceded by an SV or C Of course V would be
For Victory starting at V1 to V811xxx But my Serial Number has NO letter PREFIX and the serial number
On the Butt by Lanyard is 993450. That number is also on the rear of the Cylinder, on the FLAT under the barrel, on the backside of ejector rod and I believe on the frame c/t the cylinder rod that is hard to see but if you look through one of the cylinder chambers at 6 o’clock you can see it matches the above. Since there are NO markings as to Navy or U.S. Property am I to assume it was never issued by the military? From what little I have read I guess the “S” proceeding the serial number indicates that the firearm had been reworked and had the added the “hammer block”?
Where might have this firearm been used. Overseas? Stateside side arm of Military Police?
What confuses me is the “NO PREFIX” the only thing I would like to point out is THE STAMPED “S2” on the CRANE along with I guess the S&W factory number of #33529 on both sides of the Crane. So maybe the “S” from the S2 did mean it had been reworked to have the hammer block added?

After writing the above I just found a letter from S&W from a Victory model and in that letter it stated that BEFORE the V1
A limited quantity in this finish was sold to private firms under the Government Control of the
Defense Supply Corporation DSC. When the .38 Military & Police Serial numbers reaches 1,000,000 a NEW series
Started with V1 and was called the Victory Model. Production of this model with the prefix V began on January 1 ,1942 and continued through V750,000. All firearms
produced after this carry the SV which signifies the installation of a new hammer block. Defense Supply Corporation were shipped without U.S. or other Military
markings.

So now I do think the dealer was correct that this indeed was a "PRE" Victory model. But I still wonder if the S2 on the crane indicates
it did have the hammer block kit installed on some later date??


Thanks in advance for any information
Dean

Welcome Dean

The S2 on the yoke is a fitter's mark. Your revolver is from early 1942, maybe late 1941. There are other guys here who can narrow that down for you.

Pretty nice looking revolver from shortly before the V prefix started.

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! It is likely your .38 M&P was made after the US entered WWII. Before 12-7-41, S&W was churning out .38 British Service Revolvers which were 5" barrels and chambered for .38 S&W. They didn't make 4" .38 Special M&Ps in military finish for the US military until after 12-7. So, your gun was made for the US military in WWII but before the V series serials were issued. That makes it a pre-Victory.

drcwks:

Yes, in collector parlance it is considered a "Pre-Victory" but is technically a Military & Police, 4th Change. It likely shipped from the factory in the May-June, 1942 time frame.

Regards,
Charlie

The closest SN on my list is 994150, which shipped on 5/25/42 (993450 likely will have a nearby shipping date, which could be earlier or later). It should have the wartime dull beadblast oxide blued finish (often called Black Magic) by that time, and also smooth wooden grips, as your picture shows. There are several possible reasons why there is no property stamp, but the most probable is that it is a Defense Supplies Corporation (DSC) revolver, which was destined for stateside service by civilian law enforcement or defense plant guard services. "pre-Victory" is sort of an unofficial collector term, as it was officially called the .38 Military and Police (M&P) model. It was nearly impossible for an ordinary civilian to buy any kind of new gun at that time, as production for the national defense effort only was in full swing. The same was true for many civilian consumer products, such as new cars. There weren't any being made. Even those unsold new cars in dealers' inventories were taken over by the government for government use.

33529 is simply an assembly matching number and has no significance. A late hammer drop safety conversion would likely have an S stamp on the sideplate, and also before the V. And to the best of my knowledge, all those converted were Navy guns, not DSC guns. It is very easy to spot an M&P with the 1945 improved hammer drop safety if you know what to look for on the hammer.

I have definitely come to the right place for information! I will have to learn how
to navigate this site. Wasn't sure if I could respond to ALL in a Thank you for all the information.
I am HOOKED now on military firearms!

Thanks for everyone's replies. If I'm able, I will post a few more pictures after I remove the grips. My initial post only allowed 4
pictures.

drcwks said:

I am HOOKED now on military firearms!

Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum. I see a S&W 1917 in your future.

Yes. The S&W 1917 would be a nice addition. Actually my 1st military revolver was the Colt 1917 I purchased last January.

I am posting a few more pictures with the grips off and now I have MORE questions on what the other stampings may mean. This revolver was acquired last weekend and hasn’t been cleaned yet.
The inside right grip does have the correct S/N but very difficult to read. The first 9 is almost 2 numbers away from the 2nd number. The stamper must have had a long day I’m sure!

On the Left grip frame on bottom right is the S2 number that was stamped on the crane in my previous post.
The R.H. frame around the grip pin shows a 47, H, V. And to the middle right is a 4. Then up at top right is another V.
Since we decided this firearm is “PRE” victory does anyone have an idea what the “V” stamp referenced along with the other stamps of 47 H and 4?
Thanks in advance.
Dean

Those misc. stamps are from fitters and assemblers . I think there's a strong chance this gun went the Defense Supply Corp. route and wound up perhaps in some US manufacturing plant's guard shack with minimum use. Had it gone overseas they would probably be some English or Colonial stamps on it and evidence of more use. If the gun was mine, I would get a factory shipping letter from the S&W Historical Foundation, as the DSC can come up with very interesting destinations ( One of my 1st DSC Victory models went to Warner Bros Studio c/o Lt. Ronald Reagan, as they were making military training films and protection was needed from the imminent Japanese invasion of the West Coast ! ) Ed

Heck of a story Ed. So much history in these firearms. You've convinced me to get a letter from S&W. Thanks!

To the best of my knowledge, no one has made an effort to track to where all those DSC guns were shipped. DSC records may be archived in some government storehouse, and S&W shipping records also exist. The revolvers could have gone to any of thousands of locations - any local, state or federal LE agency, steel mill, shipyard, oil refinery, tire factory, aircraft assembly plant, you name it. It would make an interesting documentation project.

Ed, please post that letter if you still have it.

DWalt said:

To the best of my knowledge, no one has made an effort to track to where all those DSC guns were shipped. DSC records may be archived in some government storehouse, and S&W shipping records also exist.

Click to expand...

The Victory Model Database is now online for S&WCA Members. It contains hundreds of DSC shipped Victory and Pre-Victory revolvers as documented by S&W factory shipping records, and many hundreds of others that are likely DSC authorized guns for which factory records have not yet been requested.

Regards,
Charlie

Finally got my Letter for pre victory model!

I finally received my letter for the pre-victory model. It was
Sent to Commercial Iron Works, which was a manufacturing firm in Portland, Oregon, United States. Established in 1916, the company is best remembered today for its contribution to America's Emergency Shipbuilding Program during World War II. U.S.

My Gun was shipped from the Stockbridge Street Factory
on May 11th, 1942. Single gun order shipment to
Commercial Iron Works. Portland Oregon. Cost
$24.40.

Letter posted as a picture. Wasn’t sure if PDF was allowed.

I’m also posting a picture I found on Portland Library
Site that shows the Security officers at Commercial Iron Works, Portland. Taken November 1942. I wonder if my gun belonged to one of those guards.

The other 3 pictures were from same site but somewhere else close by. Just thought the pictures were interesting. Wish the one guard didn’t have his arm hiding his pistol. Obviously, one was packing a Colt.

Site only allowed one picture

Here are the additional pics from above post

Here are the additional pictures that didn't upload from the above post


Here is the site where you can view a higher resolution picture
if links are allowed

Security officers at Commercial Iron Works, Portland - OHS Digital Collections
You can back the above up and actually search for "security" and additional pictures will come up.

Without consulting my notes which are not handy at present, I believe that there were in the neighborhood of 80K of the DSC Victories and pre-Victories shipped during the War. Most of them led far easier lives than those that went to war, and will often be found in higher condition. As is the case of yours, most revolver orders were placed through DSC by qualified civilian end users (mainly law enforcement and government contractors) but then shipped by S&W directly to those end users. They are far from rare.

What did you use to generate this pic? Thanks

mcb66 said:

What did you use to generate this pic? Thanks

Click to expand...

I thought that was interesting as well. Pate's The Secondary Handguns of World War Two is a great reference for these guns.

MCB 66.
I used a filter in Adobe Photoshop 7 called EMBOSS. I've used it in the past when a stamp like what was in the wooden grips, is not clear. You can also DEBOSS it too. So indented or raised. Sometimes it helps.