I have two 32-20 HE's, SN 112xxx and 119xxx. These were made after S&W stated heat treating the cylinders. My question has to do with the caution in SCSW about using modern ammo with RIFLE on the box. I have some newer Remington ammo that says rifle and a very limited quantity of older Remington Kleanbore. Both guns have the mushroom ejector rod knob and are in excellent mechanical condition. 32-20 ammo is hard enough to find and what I have seen is for rifles.

The newer Remington ammo with lead bullets is safe for use in a .32-20 HE in sound condition. My guess is that in this day and age it is more likely to be used in rifles like an older Marlin. If in doubt, I’d contact Remington.

The rifle-only older ammo I have seen used JHP bullets at much higher velocity.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I don't remember how long, but a very long time since anyone loaded the jacketed "rifle only" 32-20 ammo. Probably would be very hard to find any outside of an antique ammo collection. I have several S&W 32-20s, earlier and later than yours. I think I've shot them all with whatever 32-20 I could find, none of the old "rifle only" as I've never seen any. Mostly with my cast bullet reloads. Anyway, no issues with any of them. Lots of fun though.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Well I don't see a question but the older Kleanbore marked Rifle I would not shoot in your guns. Older ammo was loaded hotter than modern ammo, especially that made for rifles..

I would go on-line and look at the Remington ammunition catalog for the specs on the newer 32-20 ammo.
Compare the information for the rifle ammo with that for their other 32-20 ammo. Newer ammo for the old traditional cartridges is loaded down for all the old guns that are still around due to today's increased liability concerns of the manufacturers. If the ammo marked rifle is clearly loaded higher based on the velocity listed, don't shoot the new ammo in your guns either.

Note: handloading for those shooting traditional cartridges really pays off, especially during the ammo shortages these days.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I have shot a few boxes of Remington 32-20 Rifle loads to get brass for reloading and they are loaded light. Obviously, the company knew that there were lots of Colt and S&Ws out there in that caliber, but cannot figure out why they felt they needed to use the "Rifle" on the box?? They chronographed around 800 fps. I would not make a habit of using the ammunition, because I load to under 750 in these old guns, but they handled the factory stuff without issue.

Original vintage rifle loads were jacketed bullets and heavier bullets than pistol ammo. I believe the jacketed bullets were 115 grain and ran around 1400+ fps in rifles. Revolver ammo used a 100 grain lead bullet but still ran over 900 fps.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

My 32-20 hand Ejector is a First Model, S/N 3265. It has no issue with currently available Remington ammo or my handloads. Post a picture of your ammo - I bet it's fine too.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

It's been several years, but I've chronographed modern Winchester and Remington .32-20 ammo. It's in the 1100 fps range in a rifle, very mild and safe in in any handgun or rifle regardless of age as long as the gun is in sound condition. This is all 100 grain ammo and probably wouldn't chronograph more than about 800 - 850 fps from a revolver.

Here is a sample of the two that I have, both of which are 100 gr. LRN. Thanks for all the great insight and suggestions. The old stuff says "For use in standard rifles and revolvers...".

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RE the new box, I would call Remington and ask.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

SAAMI only shows one load for .32-20, 100 gr lead at 1200 fps (rifle) at 16000 CUP.
It has been a long time since any of the various High Speed, High Velocity, Super Speed, 1892 ammo was made.
I recall it dropped out of Gun Digest's ammo listings around 1960.

The .32-20 (.32 WCF, .32 Winchester) cartridge was introduced as a rifle round & was later chambered in Colt's Single Action Army revolver. All of the currently produced ammo is safe in all revolvers.

The RIFLE ONLY round has an 80 grain hollow point bullet and the headstamp has HV on it (for High Velocity).

Picture courtesy of alk8944.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Not just and only 80 gr.

In 1939 Remington had 100 gr bullets at 1330 fps and an 80 gr "Mushroom" at 2000 fps.

Peters had similar plus 100 gr High Velocity at 1640 fps.

Winchester loaded a 115 at 1225 and Super Speed 80 at 2000.
Then a 92 Special WHV 115 gr at 1635 fps.

Western cataloged 115s at 1250-1290 fps and a Super X 80 gr at 2050 fps.

There were multiple bullet types in each spec, lead, soft point, and full jacket. The fast 80 gr bullets were mostly hollow points, maybe a full jacket.

All listed only under rifle ammo, although Colt and Smith had .32-20 revolvers in the same catalog.

Here is the jacketed Winchester 115g ammo box.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I have fired that ammo in a pre WW I S&W revolver with no ill effects. It was loud though.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

First, .32-20 is and always has been a rifle cartridge in all loadings! There have never been any commercial loads marketed specifically for revolvers! This rifle cartridge was adopted by both Colt and S&W, and all commercial ammunition except the 80 grain high velocity hollow-point is appropriate for revolvers. Any load with a bullet of 100 to 120 grains is appropriate for revolvers, regardless of when loaded! This includes lead and jacketed bullets.

The 80 grain High Velocity loading was the only load that was marketed with a warning against use in revolvers!!!!!

You mentioned .32 Special. This is a rifle cartridge chambered in the Model 1894 Winchester, a totally different animal.
The velocities you list or various .32-20 loads are what would be seen when fired in a rifle, not a revolver. You will not find a warning against use in revolvers on the boxes of any .32-20 ammunition, made at any time, except the 80 grain high velocity hollow point load!

All your post succeeds in doing is muddying the water for people who seriously want to have an authoritative answer!!!!!!!!!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

I know what you mean, years ago when I obtained my first 32 Winchester S&W, I searched for loads and found very few. I had an old spiral bound Lyman Reloading Guide that had both rifle and handgun loads for that caliber. Found a handgun load for 95g LRN and ran samples from min to max.

Out at the range I set up my chronograph to test the mid-range load and upon firing, I got the loudest crack from the ammo. I checked the chrono and it registered a hair under 1200 fps! I had broke the sound barrier and quickly unloaded the other cartridges and went to the min load. It registered over 900 fps so I proceeded to pull the bullets for all the ammo I had loaded. Eventually found a plinking load and now can keep my loads to under 750 fps, plenty of speed for paper. The 1908 - 6 1/2" S&W handled the super-sonic loads without issue, but I am sure I tempted fate. Lyman must have liked hot ammo back then, without any concerns about liability!

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Gary
SWCA 2515

The HV .32-20 loading was discontinued over 50 years ago. Note that the Remington box label does NOT say “Rifle Only”. The old HV loads used an 80 grain jacketed hollow point bullet which is instantly recognizable. About the only place you can find them today is on the ammunition collectors market. I have several specimen HV rounds in my collection, but not a full box.

Some may not be aware that back in the old days, there were rifle-only HV loads in .38-40 and .44-40. They also used lighter weight bullets. “Rifle only” did not include Winchester 1873s as they had a fairly weak action.

If you want to play it safe and have fun at the same time, get yourself some .32-20 Cowboy Action loads. It may take some searching to find it, but ammo manufactured by HSM, Black Hills, etc. are great. Round Nose Flat Point in 100 or 115g. Midway and Brownell's usually stock it, but I think COVID is still affecting the manufacture of the more unusual ammunition and many suppliers are Out of Stock right now. My 1905 4th Change .32-20 HE (118705, ca. 1923) is a hoot to shoot. Good luck!

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Before Al Gore invented the Internet and the Internet ‘xperts came along and said otherwise the 32-20 was considered to be a deer cartridge. Now days the .223/5.56 is considered adequate as a deer cartridge by the same ‘xperts.

The 32-20 is my favorite cartridge. I shot a lot of it in CAS using a Uberti carbine and EMF SA revolver. The cylinder of the EMF is beefy and I would not have any concerns about shoot the 80 gr. HV cartridge.

But why?

Somewhere in my many old reloading manuals I recall reading that the 100 gr. LRN is consider to be factory standard. Since I can never find commercial 100 gr. LRN I use 115 gr. LRN. (Actually they have a small flat nose). In addition to the thousands of 32-20 I have shot in CAS I also use it on the farm for varmints and small game. It is very accurate and results in one shot kills which is especially nice when dealing with skunks.

Personally I would not shot jacketed bullets especially in those old Smiths. I never found lead bullets to be lacking and use will avoid bore wear. I would put the jacketed ammo in a can with a label “For emergency use only when the world is ending”.

I can ramble on and on about the 32-20. I could survive easily with my 32-20’s as long as I can reload my ammo.

p.s. I forgot to ask Santa to bring me a 32-20 HE. Dang.

I didn't mean to muddy the water, I SAID it was from a 1939 catalog, none of that stuff has been made in decades, but writers have been warning against its use in revolvers long after it was gone, so I will have at it, too.

The then standard loads gave 1250-1330 fps for a 100-115 gr bullet from a rifle, present standard is a 100 gr bullet at 1200 fps. Fine for revolvers.

But I disagree that "Any load with a bullet of 100 to 120 grains is appropriate for revolvers regardless of when loaded." There was factory ammunition in excess of 1600 fps with 100-115 gr bullets, which Phil Sharpe showed as a 28000 psi load, same chamber pressure as his data for the 80 gr 2000 fps.

Not a serious matter in the 21st century, they have been out of production even longer than the 80 gr Mushroom. But I would not include them in "any" and put them in a revolver.

I cited the 92 Special WHV 115 gr at 1635 fps.
That is not a .32 Winchester Special, it is their .32 WCF product especially for the Model 92 Winchester rifle. One of those heavy bullets I don't consider a suitable revolver load.

My Dad carried a sawn off Police Positive Special .32-20 to defend his streetcar and bus change box. He was not an enthusiast and his cylinder full might be lead, it might be JSP, it might be a mixture. In those days you could buy loose ammo, so whenever he felt like firing a few, he replaced them with whatever was available. I never saw one of those hot hollow points, but the standard stuff was a great plenty in that lightweight gun for a kid.

Any ammo sold by Winchester & Remington in last 50 yrs is safe in S&W and Colt revolvers in good repair. I’ve got couple boxes of the old rifle ammo and have never shot any.

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I found new manufacture HSM 115 grain rnfp cowboy action load to be somewhat affordable. It shoots good in the model 1892 winchester, the S&W 1902 and 1905.

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I don't believe the Model of 1903 was ever chambered for the .32-20 Winchester cartridge.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I shoot the 32-20 a lot out of a 1906 vintage hand ejector and a 1905 vintage model 92.

I would highly recommend, if you want to shoot that caliber, to use it as an excuse to start reloading and casting.

I would not shoot any factory ammo that says "rifle" in the HE.

You probably will have a REALLY hard time finding ammo unless you reload and cast...then you can make it exactly the way you want it and you'll have no problems.

I use two different bullets:

An Accurate molds 115 LFP with a large grease groove, along with 18 grains of Swiss 2f Black powder. This works great in the pistol or the rifle. Yields about 900 fps in the pistol and 1250 in the rifle.

An Accurate molds 90 grain LSWC, with a smaller grease groove and cast a bit harder for smokeless. 3 grains of bullseye goes easy on the pistol, and 5 grains of Unique for about 1350 fps in the rifle.

I know I could get a lot more out of the rifle but I have no desire to...

You'll have peace of mind and an (almost) endless supply of ammo if you take this route.

Oops, what model is the round butt ? Fixed it, thank you

The K-Frame Model Hand Ejectors made for the .32-20 were 1899, 1902 and 1905. Basically they are all the same gun so far as shooting is concerned. Other than caliber they are identical to the various .38 Hand Ejectors known as the .38 Military and Police.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

I would not try any box that states "Super-X", "High Velocity", and has jacketed bullets in any old revolver. I believe that bottom box dates back to the 1940s, maybe late 1930s. Western Super-X was introduced in the 1920s and meant high power. High velocity is not something you see on most boxes made in the last 50 years, and jacketed bullets will raise chamber pressure from 15% to 30% over lead.

You cannot call the factory to get any information on 70 year old ammunition, period! Makes no sense shooting vintage ammunition while having no idea what they were originally designed for, and never a good idea to shoot jacketed bullets in 100+/- year old revolvers.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Matter of fact the old Hi Velocity ammo is labeled for rifles only and either the Win or Rem also says not for use in 1873 Wins.
So rifles only means no revolvers, really not that hard to figure out.
Any 32/20 ammo made in last 50yrs isn’t the hi-vel for rifles only.

Winchester used Super Speed, Western used Super-X, and Remington used Hi-Speed to designate high velocity handgun loads. Also, the headstamp will usually contain “HV” or something similar. Reloading is advised for anyone owning a .32-20 rifle or revolver and plans to shoot it much. At least that was true back when primers were more readily available.

There was undoubtedly a great deal of HV .32-20 ammunition fired in revolvers back in the day. The consequence will not be the revolver blowing up in your face (any revolver will easily withstand the higher pressure), but rather taking a risk of causing a crack in the barrel at the forcing cone.

All the HV 32/20 I have or have seen is some type of jacketed ammo. I’m no sure if they made such ammo with lead bullet.
When I started loading 32/20 & 25/20 years ago I bought jacketed bullets.
That didn’t last long I’ve never came across original revolvers or rifles that didn’t do better with cast bullets. It’s always been a challenge to find 32/20 with excellent bores because a lot of them lived through BP days.

Every time the topic of .32-20 revolvers come up here, invariably someone warns against using HV ammo. It would be very unlikely that could happen as almost all of the HV ammo has long since disappeared into the cartridge collectors domain. Not that you couldn’t find some at an estate or garage sale, etc., but that would also be highly improbable.

[QUOTE=Drm50;141636209]All the HV 32/20 I have or have seen is some type of jacketed ammo. I’m no sure if they made such ammo with lead bullet.
When I started loading 32/20 & 25/20 years ago I bought jacketed bullets.
That didn’t last long I’ve never came across original revolvers or rifles that didn’t do better with cast bullets. It’s always been a challenge to find 32/20 with excellent bores because a lot of them lived through BP days.[/QUOTE]

I think it was the corrosive primers more so than the black powder. I have left my muzzle loaders up to a month without cleaning with no ill effects-no pitting whatsoever.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

How many Wives Tales can you think of having to do with guns and ammo? For some these are the Gospel. That’s why they never die. They are passed down from father to son.
Having said that it isn’t smart to use any ammo that you don’t know origins of. The ammo shortage has brought out all kinds of ammo to the market. Every little LGS has ammo coming in out of the woodwork. Especially hand loads. Use to be shops would not knowingly sell unknown hand loads because of liability. It is against the law to make and sell ammo without license.

Drm50, that is a fine looking Marlin carbine you have there. I know a couple people around here that would love to have something like that.

Really?

The 32-20 was originally a black powder cartridge. It was the fourth most popular cartridge in the Colt SAA and the #1 most popular cartridge in the Colt Bisley. It was considered to be a prime Target cartridge.

If my experience with my Uberti 1873 Carbine accurately reflects the same performance back then it was no wonder it was popular for use in rifles and carbines.

Time marches on and smokeless powder arrives. Sometime during the early 1900’s Colt starts heat treating the cylinder of the SAA and says it is safe for use of smokeless ammunition in them.

Only now the new fangled smokeless ammunition isn’t safe for revolvers and the 1873 rifle/carbine. It is sold for rifle use only.

Yet Colt is manufacturing new SAA chambered in the 32-20. But smokeless ammunition is unsafe for it.

Wait the situation gets worse. Smith and Wesson introduces their large frame double action revolver in 32-20. It becomes a popular handgun carried by leo’s. Yet commercial ammo is too hot for use in it?

I think not. I think the rifle only warning was concern about use in guns that had not been heat treated and manufactured with modern steel as blackpowder era guns could not safely withstand the higher pressure ammo.

Historical research shows that one of the reasons the 32-20 became popular in the 1930’s was for use against bandits. Like the 38 Super lawmen needed more powerful ammunition to penetrate the heavy steel use in automobiles. So the ammo of choice? Why rifle only labeled of course. If I was a pre-WWII lawdog I would be carrying the S&W HD loaded with rifle only label ammunition.

There I go again. Rambling about my favorite cartridge.

While I also love the .32-20 cartridge, having had at least one handgun in that caliber since 1975 and have owned a dozen or so revolvers and rifles, there are three fallacies in your post.

The first .32-20 that S&W built was the 1899, a medium frame.

By the 1930s, S&W had discontinued building .32-20 revolvers; they were still in the catalog, but the factory had enough already built. Sales were at an all-time low for that round.

The Heavy Duty was only offered in .38 special, although some of the 1930s catalogues list the .44 Special as an option. It was never offered as a factory chambering in .32-20.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Maybe I missed this..........

Wouldn't modern .32-20 ammunition designed for cowboy action shooting be completely safe and reliable in any S&W revolver designed to shoot smokeless powder?

Maybe not but I figured I had better ask.............

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Come and take it!!

"Cowboy" ammunition is generally a code word for "underloaded" and is a common recommendation for old guns.

I have read that .32-20 revolvers are disproportionately subject to bulged barrels.
Is that so, and if so, what is the current theory?

That old muddy water.
These seem to contradict a lot of what you posted ?
Note it's a 20 round box
That it does indeed say important not for revolvers.
Also note the velocity and that's for a 115 grain jacketed bullet.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Paul
Good old Dominion ammo. When I bought my first .32-40 Marlin Model 1893, back in the mid 1970s, I went around to all the gun shops in Portland, Oregon, to see what I could find in the way of ammo for it. I managed to secure 6 or 7 boxes of Dominion 170 grain .32-40s. Great stuff. I reloaded some of those cases 3 or 4 times. One of the boxes is sitting on a shelf just above where I am at this moment.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I would say that those comments above applied to US made ammo. And IIRC, that ammo also dates to the '50s-'60s.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

You will not find a warning against use in revolvers on the boxes of any .32-20 ammunition, made at any time, except the 80 grain high velocity hollow point load!

Must have missed that part of the authoritative
Discussion

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

I have dealt in 32/20s, revolvers and rifles for years. I’ve never seen a bulged barrel 32/20 revolver. A bulged barrel is caused by bore obstruction. I’m sure there could be cases of separated cores in early jacketed ammo. That it is some kind of plague is a stretch
It’s about the same level as revolvers blow up by the old Hv rifle ammo. Now I have seen several 357s with bulged barrels from
target loads with 1/2 jacket bullets, throwing the core.
In 32/20 I’ve herd of people shooting 32 S&W in them. That could possibly also leave a bullet in bore. About shooting through car bodies also sounds like a wives tale. I don’t know what bullet they had back in 20s & 30s would be much of an AP bullet.

Paul, there were at least two boxes with heavier bullets pictured in this thread. The Dominion box above states "Do not use in revolvers" and the Western Super-X box states "For use in rifles only". The topic has been beaten to death, but old ammo without known velocities or pressures. especially with jacket bullets, should not be used in vintage S&W revolvers.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I also do not remember seeing any .32-20 revolver having a bulged barrel, and do not know why any bullet would shed its jacket. But I have heard tales about it happening. I have fired a few rounds of .32 Long in a .32-20 revolver and nothing bad happened. Long ago I had a friend who was accidentally killed by a .32 Long bullet fired from a .32-20 revolver. I don’t know why a .32-20 bullet would be any better than a .38 Special bullet in penetrating a car body.

This discussion reminds me of back in the 60s at the speed shop.
You could buy 5gal. cans of racing fuel. Clearly printed on the can, in red,
top and front, "For modified race track cars only". Enough said! Right?
Some did not heed the warning. Oh well. If it says rifle only, it means rifle only.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

So what was the best model for me to carry pre-registered magnum time?

What would be the best model for shooting today? I reload all of my 32-20 ammunition and never brought any commercial manufactured stuff.

Mike, I'm thinking that had to do with the way they taxed that off road fuel.

Great informative discussion on the 32-20 ammunition. I have my ammo dealer buddys watching for any thing available now.