Early Post War 2" M&Ps made with Prewar Parts

ADMIN Edit-
Folks,
This thread is specifically about Round Butt 2" M&Ps shipped in 1946. These guns are RARE. They have serial numbers in the high 833000 range and the 690000 range.
Please Do NOT post Square Butt guns.
Please Do NOT post later C numbered Round Butts.
Very few of these guns have turned up, and they deserve more research, so I'd like to keep this thread focused on them alone.

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original post:

Thought I would post these two since I have rarely read anything on these M&P 2" guns. These were part of the first hundred or so that were made with prewar parts after the war. The 2" barrels are the rare part of these. I look for the prewar snubs and try to buy them when I can. Both of these guns have the "S" marked on the left side of the frame under the stocks. The top piece has been restored to OEM as close as it could be, because I did it after someone else refinished it and over polished some areas that I had to fix. I need to replace its hammer, but have not yet. This revolver is not the prewar revolver that I previously posted pictures of...

I thought the second one (bottom one) was refinished also, but after looking at it closely after I got it home, it is completely original finished and has a very faint plum color to the cylinder. The gun is about as mint as any gun I have had.

***I would love to see the other 2" immediate transitional postwar ones that other members have. Please post pictures of these rare little revolvers. I would like to have a better idea on the actual population of them or at least the ones in collector's hands.

Also of note the top one is SN S833946
The bottom one is SN: S694068

Also, the Serial Numbers are orientated in different directions on the butt. I guess it depended which way the frame was placed in the frame stamping jig at the factory. That may be common for S&W, but I had never seen that before.

They are very nice.

The serial number reading, left or right, indicates a time frame with N frames. Not sure if it applies with the K frame.

Kevin

Very nice, Blaine.

My two are 1949 and 1954. So, too new to help out.

The reason the serial numbers are facing different directions is that 694068 is a prewar frame. Several of those in the 694000 range were still in inventory after the war. They were not upgraded with the new sliding hammer block safety but were sold after the war. I show six of them in my database and they shipped in August and September, 1946. One carries number 694106, and shipped to the Boston PD in 1940. None of them that I have examined have an S prefix serial number on the butt. However, some of them have the S in other places, including the barrel flat and the grip frame. No one seems to know the reason for this inconsistent use of the S, especially since these revolvers do not have the new hammer block.

11 of these 2" round butt M&Ps with the prewar 694000 serial numbers were shipped to Zork Hardware in El Paso TX on September 22, 1946. Another 10 units were sent to Warshal Sporting Goods in Seattle on September 17, 1946. I show one going to Bogerts Gun Shop in Sandusky, OH on August 23, 1946.

S833946 clearly was serialized after the war. It carries a postwar serial number and has the number in the right direction for a postwar gun. It does NOT have the postwar sliding hammer block, despite the S in the serial number. I have details on three others in this serial range and they shipped in August, 1946.

Records show 100 2" round butt units, including some in the S833000 range and others that have the prewar serial sequence in the 694000 range. As near as I can tell, all of these shipped in August and September, 1946, but I don't have confirmed ship dates on all of them.

All in all, this is a very interesting group of revolvers.

JP@AK said:

The reason the serial numbers are facing different directions is that 694068 is a prewar frame. Several of those in the 694000 range were still in inventory after the war. They were not upgraded with the new sliding hammer block safety but were sold after the war. I show six of them in my database and they shipped in August and September, 1946. One carries number 694106, and shipped to the Boston PD in 1940. None of them that I have examined have an S prefix serial number on the butt. However, some of them have the S in other places, including the barrel flat and the grip frame. No one seems to know the reason for this inconsistent use of the S, especially since these revolvers do not have the new hammer block.

11 of these 2" round butt M&Ps with the prewar 694000 serial numbers were shipped to Zork Hardware in El Paso TX on September 22, 1946. Another 10 units were sent to Warshal Sporting Goods in Seattle on September 17, 1946. I show one going to Bogerts Gun Shop in Sandusky, OH on August 23, 1946.

S833946 clearly was serialized after the war. It carries a postwar serial number and has the number in the right direction for a postwar gun. It does NOT have the postwar sliding hammer block, despite the S in the serial number. I have details on three others in this serial range and they shipped in August, 1946.

Records show 100 2" round butt units, including some in the S833000 range and others that have the prewar serial sequence in the 694000 range. As near as I can tell, all of these shipped in August and September, 1946, but I don't have confirmed ship dates on all of them.

All in all, this is a very interesting group of revolvers.

Click to expand...

Excellent information Jack! That was what I was looking for and had read some of that on here before, but could not locate that post. These particular guns just don't show up often. I saw where one had sold on GunBroker this past year and hoped someone would have posted about it.

It would be great if there was a published list of those numbers that have turned up on the association side of the forum like we have for the prewar Terriers. I knew someone on here had the details for these shipments and I am glad you reposted your knowledge for all to see. I plan to letter both of these and will gladly share this information when I get it, but I suspect it will be in the serial number blocks you already have.

A lot of folks confuse the standard transitional S marked frame guns (S located on the butt) that are square butt with these much rarer guns. The easiest way collectors can see the most obvious difference with these rarer prewar frames are the defined hammer studs located on the left side of the frame. The terminology "proud" hammer stud is probably not correct, but they remind also me of a visible rivet. There are other differences, but the prominent difference is the external visible hammer stud.

I also want to be clear on scarce or rare terminology for the prewar frames. Prewar frames are common, but this configuration is not. Many, many prewar frames are out there with longer barrel lengths, but not postwar shipped with the 2" or 6" original barrel length.

bwade said:

I plan to letter both of these and will gladly share this information when I get it, but I suspect it will be in the serial number blocks you already have.

Click to expand...

S833946 is already in my database, but I don't have a confirmed ship date for it. So I would appreciate that when you have it.

694068 is not yet in my database, but I'll add it now. I do need the ship date for that one too, when you get it. I have recorded two nearby numbers, one on either side of yours: 694053 and 694074. 694053 went to El Paso on September 22, 1946. 694074 shipped to Seattle on September 17, 1946.

The easiest way collectors can see the most obvious difference with these rarer prewar frames are the defined hammer studs located on the left side of the frame. The terminology "proud" hammer stud is probably not correct, but they remind also me of a visible rivet. There are other differences, but the prominent difference is the external visible hammer stud.

Click to expand...

That hammer stud, in common with all prewar K frames, is threaded into the frame. As you say, the end of the stud is visible just below the thumbpiece.

The order to change the threaded stud to one that is pressed into the sideplate and then polished flat, was issued on January 18, 1946. There are some 2" square butt units that had the threaded stud. They show up in the S816000 range and at least one of them shipped in April, 1946.

Large production runs of the 2" square butt units don't seem to show up until the S839000 range, and all of those (and beyond) have the pressed hammer stud.

Thanks, Richard.

Once I file the article on the postwar M&P for the Journal, I'll clean up the database and make it available to the Association. I'm sure it will get posted here on the Forum.

See you in June!

Jack, I have several other M&Ps in the 2". Do you want/need serial information for other prewar or postwar models?

Thanks for the offer, Blaine. Any that have an SV or S prefix serial number would be very helpful, regardless of barrel length.

Here is one of the first 100 2 inch M&P shipped after WW 2.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/member...barrel-photo-terry-popkin-serial-833889-a.jpg
http://smith-wessonforum.com/member...m-p-shipped-after-ww-2-photo-terry-popkin.jpg
http://smith-wessonforum.com/member...89-shipped-august-22-1946-philadelphia-pa.jpg

Another of the first 100 2" postwar

That one is serial numbered 57 before mine. Great shape too!
S833889 makes 3 of the first 100 now listed with a photo.

Toyman said:

Here is one of the first 100 2 inch M&P shipped after WW 2.

Click to expand...

Shipped on August 22, 1946.

bwade said:

Also, the Serial Numbers are orientated in different directions on the butt. I guess it depended which way the frame was placed in the frame stamping jig at the factory. That may be common for S&W, but I had never seen that before.

Click to expand...

Don’t have my notes with me but the change took place for all frame sizes in 1942 IIRCorrectly.

Here is a post-war gun that is pure pre-war. No improved safety, so no "S" in the serial. It does have the post-war blue though.
SN 694074.

No longer mine, sold it at a SWCA convention a few years ago.



Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

So far after reading the above posts, 4 of the first 100 M&Ps 2" that were built with prewar parts (frame specifically shipped in 1946) by the factory postwar are:

1. S833946
2. S694068
3. S833889
4. 694074


That's 4 of them with pictures. Still 96 more to go and thanks to whoever fixed my thread title! Much clearer now.

Here is a link on another one of that turned up on here in 2015:

Pre-War M&P Snub

This makes 5 listed on here with pictures:

1. S833946
2. S694068
3. S833889
4. 694074
5. S694101


That's 5 of the 100 known posted on here. Thank you Modified for the information!

694101 shipped on August 22, 1946. It does not have the S prefix on the butt. Neither does it have the sliding hammer block safety that was introduced in December, 1944.

Oddly, it does have the S on the barrel flat, possibly a Service Department mark.

S as part of the Serial Number

Jack, I have not seen one of these with the S actually located on the butt on any of these so far. It appears they were putting the S on the side of the frame instead of the butt at this point. Is the S part of the serial number at all on either the 694XXX or 833XXX 1946 series? Clearly the S became part of the serial number in 1947 with the rest of this model until the C prefix started.

Also, both of mine have the S on the barrel flats, but they are located at different areas on the flat.

I have always thought the S was the factory's beginning of the S serial number series and they were not yet consistent with placement of the prefix (S). The side of the frame may have been an indication of what they were thinking about placement until they universally went to the butt on this model and others postwar. I have sent off for letters for both of mine and I used the S as part of the serial number. It will be interesting to see how they letter.

I have 694101, 694105, and 694106. I wrote two Journal articles on these guns, 25 years apart. The 2nd story is better than the first one. A lot of these guns, including 694105, were ordered in 1940, but because they were round butts, no commercial shipments were being made, and they eventually shipped in Aug 1946. A distributor-dealer in Detroit, Lou ???, had ordered several of them. 694106 did ship promptly, because it went to a LEO (Boston PD). Square butt 2" M&P's were not subject to the ban, and were being shipped commercially.

At first I thought that the ban was because of a shortage of 2" barrels, because the factory was shifting all production to Lend-Lease guns with longer barrels. Roy suggested that the 2" round butts were going to Ft Mason in San Francisco, for special ops training. I do have a 2" square butt shipped to Ft Mason in about 1942, so there probably is some truth to that story.

Here is a picture of all four of the 2" M&P's.



Regards, Mike Priwer