In models that ran concurrently? Especially in in the pre computer era.
Thanks
Thanks
How did S&W avoid duplicate serial numbers?
- Thread starter Mbrgr1
- Start date
I really hate it when opportunities such as this come along, but they avoided it very carefully.(!!)
Apologies to all in need!
Ralph Tremaine
There is, in the 1954 edition of the Gun Digest, a photo essay titled Raw Steel to Smith & Wesson-The Story of Revolver Making---60 photos (with captions). I'd supposed there might be a clue in there. They show the serial number being stamped on the butt---also shown is the stamping of other numbered parts; but there's no treatment of the control process for avoiding duplicates.
If memory serves, the serial number was applied to hand ejectors early on the production process----after the yoke was fit, after the grips were fit, and presumably after the sideplate was fit. It stands to reason these serial numbers came from a list. It also stands to reason each number was scratched off the list as it was assigned---assuming God was on duty in His Heaven. Given a number was scratched off such a list, there's your control right there. I'll go one step further, and suppose the guy stamping the number on the butt, was the same guy scratching the number off the list----and the number of scratched off items determined his earnings.
Is that the way it happened? I don't know. I do know it make sense---some sense anyway.
Apologies to all in need!
Ralph Tremaine
There is, in the 1954 edition of the Gun Digest, a photo essay titled Raw Steel to Smith & Wesson-The Story of Revolver Making---60 photos (with captions). I'd supposed there might be a clue in there. They show the serial number being stamped on the butt---also shown is the stamping of other numbered parts; but there's no treatment of the control process for avoiding duplicates.
If memory serves, the serial number was applied to hand ejectors early on the production process----after the yoke was fit, after the grips were fit, and presumably after the sideplate was fit. It stands to reason these serial numbers came from a list. It also stands to reason each number was scratched off the list as it was assigned---assuming God was on duty in His Heaven. Given a number was scratched off such a list, there's your control right there. I'll go one step further, and suppose the guy stamping the number on the butt, was the same guy scratching the number off the list----and the number of scratched off items determined his earnings.
Is that the way it happened? I don't know. I do know it make sense---some sense anyway.
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IIRC, according to Dr. Jinks, they didn't always. I have seen him speak to guns out there with the same serial number. One must remember that S&W's were built by human beings and human beings make mistakes. I don't think that it happened too often but it did happen. I'm guessing that it was the floor foreman's job to see that numbers weren't used twice. But that's why pencils come with erasers.....
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OP
Didn't avoid it all together. The HFT from 1923 (I think) had about 90 duplicates. They put a D in front of the SN.
I'll post pics in a few.
I'll post pics in a few.
Check that. It was the 22 SS, 3th model Perfected from 1920. I have D 9402, shipped Nov. 24, 1920. There were about 90 of them. Pics in a minute.
I dont think the possibility was a common occurrence. Especially within
frame sizes. I have seem a Mod-1 with the same Sn. as one of my early m-39s. I have never seen a duplicate Sn. in the J.K, or N frame sizes. Of course I have not seen them all. Would welcome pics. of anyone whose field of collecting is duplicate Sns.
frame sizes. I have seem a Mod-1 with the same Sn. as one of my early m-39s. I have never seen a duplicate Sn. in the J.K, or N frame sizes. Of course I have not seen them all. Would welcome pics. of anyone whose field of collecting is duplicate Sns.
Collecting guns with duplicate numbers would be a small niche. 
OP
So......
It was caught before it left the factory, yes?....
"d" stood for "duplicate", "dumb#*$", "d'oh!"?
It was caught before it left the factory, yes?....
"d" stood for "duplicate", "dumb#*$", "d'oh!"?
StrawHat
SWCA Member
I don’t believe they tried. The Model 1917 had its own serial range. I believe it overlapped several other ranges but I have no positive proof of that. But, I have serial number 31, New Century 455 and I am sure there is a corresponding Model 1917.
Kevin
Kevin
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bwade
SWCA Member
I know they had duplicates, sometimes in the same model. I have a Pre 27 4" S164145 shipped to H.H. Harris February 25, 1957 which was a duplicated serial numbered to a Pre 27 3.5" shipped three weeks before to H.H. Harris. Would like to find the 3.5" to go with my 4"!
mikepriwer
SWCA Member
Roy has told me that they had a serial-numbering machine, that automatically advanced to the next serial number after it stamped a number, presumably a butt serial number. For any particular model, frames were made up in batches, anywhere from 100 or so to 500 or more. When they were ready to start working on a new batch, of anything, they would reset the machine to the last number stamped for that particular model, plus 1. Somewhere there had to be a list of the last number used, for each model.
Where the problem seems to have come from was the resetting of the machine to the last number used. If, for any reason, that didn't happen, or they used the wrong starting number, then problems would result. If the starting number was too low, then duplicates would result. If it was too high, then gaps would occur in the shipping ledgers, which were books preprinted with all the possible list of serial numbers, in serial number order.
Individual duplicates serial number errors, in the shipping ledgers, could also occur, if the person doing the recording was having a bad day, and was switching the last two digits of a serial number, around. For example, 60435 might have been mis-read as 60453, resulting in a probable duplicate at 60453, and perhaps an open entry on 60435. Roy has actually described this as a not-infrequent occurence, and happened with one of my 44 magnums.
Generally, S&W did a good job of designing their systems. Given the equipment they had to work with, it's a very workable system. As with anything involving humans, errors did occur.
Regards, Mike Priwer
Where the problem seems to have come from was the resetting of the machine to the last number used. If, for any reason, that didn't happen, or they used the wrong starting number, then problems would result. If the starting number was too low, then duplicates would result. If it was too high, then gaps would occur in the shipping ledgers, which were books preprinted with all the possible list of serial numbers, in serial number order.
Individual duplicates serial number errors, in the shipping ledgers, could also occur, if the person doing the recording was having a bad day, and was switching the last two digits of a serial number, around. For example, 60435 might have been mis-read as 60453, resulting in a probable duplicate at 60453, and perhaps an open entry on 60435. Roy has actually described this as a not-infrequent occurence, and happened with one of my 44 magnums.
Generally, S&W did a good job of designing their systems. Given the equipment they had to work with, it's a very workable system. As with anything involving humans, errors did occur.
Regards, Mike Priwer
Manufacturing Process Circa Pre 1957; includes 'soft ftting' Outline
SOFT FITTING:
The gun was disassembled because the parts had to be polished and finished in blue or nickel before being sent to hard fitting, etc. You can look at soft fitting as a 'dress rehearsal'. It was an old world craftsmanship process no longer affordable in the post war's competitive times. I don't think anyone can say soft fitted guns were any better or worse than later guns. High tech machining and continuously improving processes and parts tolerances also mitigated the need for it.
Here's the story of the production process in brief including when and how the 'work numbers' are used to this day, and when parts were serialized from 'the man' himself.
"I will give you a general outline of the manufacturing process up to about the 1957 period when the soft fitting department was eliminated. The company is divided into departments, forging, frame, barrel, cylinder, small parts, heat treat, stocking department, soft fitting, polishing, finishing, hard fitting, test range, final inspection, [storage in the vault], and shipping. The flow is roughly in that order.
"Bar stock is forged into frames, barrels, hammers, triggers, and side plates stamped from flat stock. These parts are all trimmed and sent to the appropriate department. In each department the parts are machined to a finished stage.
"In the frame department once the frame is partly finished a yoke is fit to it and the yoke and frame are stamped with a work number. The frame is then sent to the man who fits the side plate which is swaged onto the frame and the side plate is given the work number in the slot cut for the hand. The yoke and side plate are over size so the frame with these parts in position are sent through the machining operations so that they are blended together.
"When the frame is finished it is sent to the stocking department where a pair of stocks are fit to the frame. Once the stocks have been fit, the frame, yoke [on the rear face visible thru one chamber] and the stocks are stamped with a serial number. Only the frame will have a letter prefix if one is assigned to that model. The frame is then sent to soft fitting and the stocks to finishing and when they are done to the inspection department.
"In soft fitting the frame is fit with a finished barrel, cylinder, and internal parts. The barrel, cylinder and extractor star are stamped with a serial number[barrel and cyl with letter prefix as well]. The gun is disassembled and the small parts placed in a bin and sent to hard fitting. The frame, barrel, and cylinder are sent to polishing then to get a blue or nickel finish.
"Once completely finished they are sent to hard fitting, where the gun is assembled, the fitter stamps his mark in the yoke cut, and its inspected by the floor inspector. From hard fitting the handgun goes to the range where it is test fired and marked with a prick punch mark in the lower front corner of the cyl window, usually.
"From the range it goes to the inspection department where the first inspector finds the right numbered pair of grips* and puts them on the handgun. It then goes to final inspection where all the features are inspected for proper function. Then it is packaged and moved into the vault. From there it goes to the distributor."
Roy G. Jinks
Historian, Smith & Wesson
NOTE: Once soft fitting was eliminated as of May 1, 1957, serial numbering of the yoke, cylinder and barrel were no longer needed to insure all the matching 'soft fitted' parts got back together, and were therefore eliminated.
*GRIPS
“The stocks were fit to unfinished frames in the stocking department and the last step in fitting was to serial number the frame and the inside of the right stock at the same time. Then the frames would be separated and sent to fitting and the stocks would be sent through finishing and then forwarded to the stock holding area just outside the final inspection area. Here they would be sorted by frame size and put in numerical order by serial number. Once the hand gun had gone through the firing range they were delivered to the stock holding area and the correct numbered stocks would be matched to the frame and installed on the gun. Then to final inspection and packing department. Hope that this helps.” Roy
When were stocks installed on new revolvers?
SOFT FITTING:
The gun was disassembled because the parts had to be polished and finished in blue or nickel before being sent to hard fitting, etc. You can look at soft fitting as a 'dress rehearsal'. It was an old world craftsmanship process no longer affordable in the post war's competitive times. I don't think anyone can say soft fitted guns were any better or worse than later guns. High tech machining and continuously improving processes and parts tolerances also mitigated the need for it.
Here's the story of the production process in brief including when and how the 'work numbers' are used to this day, and when parts were serialized from 'the man' himself.
"I will give you a general outline of the manufacturing process up to about the 1957 period when the soft fitting department was eliminated. The company is divided into departments, forging, frame, barrel, cylinder, small parts, heat treat, stocking department, soft fitting, polishing, finishing, hard fitting, test range, final inspection, [storage in the vault], and shipping. The flow is roughly in that order.
"Bar stock is forged into frames, barrels, hammers, triggers, and side plates stamped from flat stock. These parts are all trimmed and sent to the appropriate department. In each department the parts are machined to a finished stage.
"In the frame department once the frame is partly finished a yoke is fit to it and the yoke and frame are stamped with a work number. The frame is then sent to the man who fits the side plate which is swaged onto the frame and the side plate is given the work number in the slot cut for the hand. The yoke and side plate are over size so the frame with these parts in position are sent through the machining operations so that they are blended together.
"When the frame is finished it is sent to the stocking department where a pair of stocks are fit to the frame. Once the stocks have been fit, the frame, yoke [on the rear face visible thru one chamber] and the stocks are stamped with a serial number. Only the frame will have a letter prefix if one is assigned to that model. The frame is then sent to soft fitting and the stocks to finishing and when they are done to the inspection department.
"In soft fitting the frame is fit with a finished barrel, cylinder, and internal parts. The barrel, cylinder and extractor star are stamped with a serial number[barrel and cyl with letter prefix as well]. The gun is disassembled and the small parts placed in a bin and sent to hard fitting. The frame, barrel, and cylinder are sent to polishing then to get a blue or nickel finish.
"Once completely finished they are sent to hard fitting, where the gun is assembled, the fitter stamps his mark in the yoke cut, and its inspected by the floor inspector. From hard fitting the handgun goes to the range where it is test fired and marked with a prick punch mark in the lower front corner of the cyl window, usually.
"From the range it goes to the inspection department where the first inspector finds the right numbered pair of grips* and puts them on the handgun. It then goes to final inspection where all the features are inspected for proper function. Then it is packaged and moved into the vault. From there it goes to the distributor."
Roy G. Jinks
Historian, Smith & Wesson
NOTE: Once soft fitting was eliminated as of May 1, 1957, serial numbering of the yoke, cylinder and barrel were no longer needed to insure all the matching 'soft fitted' parts got back together, and were therefore eliminated.
*GRIPS
“The stocks were fit to unfinished frames in the stocking department and the last step in fitting was to serial number the frame and the inside of the right stock at the same time. Then the frames would be separated and sent to fitting and the stocks would be sent through finishing and then forwarded to the stock holding area just outside the final inspection area. Here they would be sorted by frame size and put in numerical order by serial number. Once the hand gun had gone through the firing range they were delivered to the stock holding area and the correct numbered stocks would be matched to the frame and installed on the gun. Then to final inspection and packing department. Hope that this helps.” Roy
When were stocks installed on new revolvers?
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Gentlemen, that's great information...Jim, is it possible the blog you linked is unreachable to us mere peons?...
...Ben
...Ben
StrawHat
SWCA Member
I will now have to look for this prick punch! It has escaped my usual unthorough examination!
Kevin
OP
That’s it.
I have guns with the punch marks as early as triple locks and as late as pre model 24s. I’ve occasionally seen them on the left side of the fore grip frame near the top also. That very recent thread about a .357 with the large B stamp in the extractor shroud for the bright blue finish also had a punch mark in the shroud. It’s the only gun I’ve seen with a punch mark in that location. I didn’t ask if it had a punch mark in the cyl window. But it made me wonder if that’s what it was for.
I have guns with the punch marks as early as triple locks and as late as pre model 24s. I’ve occasionally seen them on the left side of the fore grip frame near the top also. That very recent thread about a .357 with the large B stamp in the extractor shroud for the bright blue finish also had a punch mark in the shroud. It’s the only gun I’ve seen with a punch mark in that location. I didn’t ask if it had a punch mark in the cyl window. But it made me wonder if that’s what it was for.
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I always thought it was a Rockwell punch, including the one in the ejector shroud. Now I know better. Thank you.
I know it wasn't always done. I had a 5" K38 Special run for the IL State Police, that when I contacted Roy for a letter, he mentioned it was one of a duplicate number, one went to export, and one went to the IL State Police. So there were an "occasional" duplicate number.
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