I have this 3rd Model Ladysmith that I picked up 18 years ago, and just finally got around to getting lettered. I know that most references including SCSW routinely describe this gun as being shipped with "smooth walnut square butt stocks with gold medallions", but I have wondered about the accuracy of this. Most of the photos I've seen of 3rd Models have had those smooth stocks. However, my gun has checkered stocks that exhibit checkering that has a very "factory" appearance and quality to them. Furthermore, I have seen numerous others pictured online that appear to have the exact same grips. A simple Google image search quickly turns up several.

My grips are numbered to the gun in a very faint, yet legible, pencil. And yet, the letter I received today states that the checkering was done after leaving the factory, from which it was shipped on June 15, 1916, to Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Company in Chicago.

So, questions. First, is it possible that the records are incorrect, and perhaps the checkering was either a special order or possibly just mixed in randomly with the smooth stocks during assembly. Or, perhaps there was one specific source that was checkering them, possibly for an exclusive dealer? I'd love to hear from anybody with any thoughts or insight into this.

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Ain't This Fun Though?

The photos are very tiny so I can’t see them very well. But I did checker exactly one set of factory stocks for someone, but don’t remember who. And if I did someone else could.

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kbgrips.com

Keith
If you just hover your mouse over the pics, they will come up full size. At least they do on my computer. If you click on them, they are tiny.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

The checkering does not appear to me to be of the quality expected on the stocks of a Smith & Wesson revolver and, I agree, the checkering was done after the time of purchase. Compare the checkering on the stocks of your revolver to the checkering on the stocks of this also 1916 shipped revolver, mine being a .455 Hand Ejector Second Model revolver.

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Yes, if you hover, it will open full size. If you click on the picture, it will sometimes open as a thumbnail. Just close that browser window and you will see the full size picture.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

OutAtTheEdge,

First of all I'd like to compliment you for posting the photos of Your "Very Fine" 3rd Model Ladysmith...Not many are found in the condition yours exhibits!!

As to the Checkered Stocks...FWIW...Two of the Three Ladysmith 3rd Model 6-Inch Targets of mine have Checkered Stocks very near ...Or the same as yours!! Also...As you have noted..."Both" of mine are Serial-Numbered to the Revolvers as well!!

As far as why Your Letter doesn't make mention of them...Liz Shuter (Well known to some of the Long-Time Members here who might have crossed paths with her over the years...Was known to those who knew her well to be the "Queen of the S&W Ladysmiths"...And for good reason if anyone has ever seen one of Her Fantastic Displays at various events years ago!!

Why I make mention...Liz & I had several lengthy discussions as to why some of these Revolvers "Letter" with them & some don't!! Her theory was..As well as mine...Since it was highly unlikely this Checkering was a Special-Order type of thing back in the day...Most likely the Factory Records make no mention of it in most cases unless an Invoice was found noting a Customer specifically ordered them to be Checkered!!

Now I realize this was speculation on both her & my part, but given she knew nearly everything that was worth knowing about these Little Ladysmith Revolvers...Many S&W Collectors listened closely to what she had to say!!

Also as an aside...You have to remember comparing about anything on these Revolvers is somewhat difficult to do being they were much smaller overall than any Hand-Ejector produced back then...Meaning most any feature on them is somewhat down-sized in comparison...If you get my meaning!! Hope at least some of this helps explain your questions!!

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Masterpiece

Thank you Masterpiece, I really appreciate it. This is exactly the kind of input I was looking for. I figured someone here would have shared my curiosity about these things, and would be able to shed some light on the matter.

A couple other slightly interesting things about this gun. It's pretty plain to see the presentation etching on the frame, and it's also pretty obvious that it is not of a quality you'd expect from the factory. Still, is it interesting to speculate about who "Frank" and "Ed" were? We'll probably never know, but still...

The other thing I like about this is the destination the gun was shipped to. Some here probably know it, but for those who don't, Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett and Company was a large hardware retailer in Chicago. in addition to dealing in firearms, they also had a line of knives they sold under their name that is of some interest to knife collectors these days. They are also known for the line of hardware they established under the name "True Value". Then in 1962, the True Value brand and hardware business were sold to Cotter & Co, another Chicago hardware chain that sold firearms, frequently under their own brand. I mention this because, also in my safe at this time, is a Marlin .30-30 with brass saddle ring sold by Cotter & Co as their Westpoint Model 33

And then another pic...
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Ain't This Fun Though?

Took another look after opening them in a new tab. I’d say done at a later date, the top border cut is located lower than I’d expect from factory and there are a couple pretty big overruns. With that said these stocks are very small and comparing them to K or N isn’t really fair.

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kbgrips.com

I do not believe the checkering is Factory. The diamonds are not centered on the escutcheons. The bumpy radius on the top border is the clincher for me.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Keith,
They were from my son, Matt Cucchiara (Pontiaker on this forum), after you checkered them he gave them to me for my M frame. They are clearly factory quality work and the pattern is perfect, and as I recall him telling me, only the coarser different lines per inch give them away as non-factory checkering.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

"First, is it possible the records are incorrect---------------------?"

Naw----can't be!

Then again, I had this 8" .32 caliber 1st Model Single Shot. It letters as a 10" .22.

So much for correct/incorrect!

There's more, but not as re correct/incorrect; but complete/incomplete---and that's a different department----a bigger one!

On the other hand, these records were compiled by human beings---perhaps somewhat flawed from time to time---or too busy with their work to do their job----or maybe just having a bad day.

See how easy it is to be charitable----especially when it isn't your Ox getting gored! Then too there's the fact that when you're put out by someone's boo-boo from long, long ago, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it---except maybe kick your dog---but watch out for those teeth!!

Ralph Tremaine

Keith,

I agree His Stocks may possibly have been "Re-Cut" at later date, but I still believe they were originally Checkered from the Factory!! Main reason being...Your mention of the Top Border Cut being lower than generally seen on most Factory Pre-War Cup Medallion Stocks...The Top cut on his is in the exact location all of those I own are cut!! I'd post a few photos of mine to compare, but My Camera's inoperable at the moment or I'd take a few Pics!! If I can get something figured out with it...I'll take a few & post them...Sorry!!

As close I can come at the moment are a couple borrowed Pics a few of Our Fellow Members have posted in the past...They're not the sharpest, but I believe you'll see what I mean!!

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	Ladysmith 6-Inch Target Overall (Right Stock Checkering Close-Up).jpg (59.0 KB, 38 views)
	Ladysmith 3rd Model Nickel (Left Stock Checkering Close-Up) .jpg (41.0 KB, 37 views)

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Masterpiece

Anything the factory has done can be done out side the factory. This is especially true of hand work.

In this case I would say it is doubtful, I will also say I love the tiny Ladysmiths and that one is a beauty, factory or non factory grips

As far as letters are concerned, there is no telling what has been done to any firearm once it leaves the factory, especially after 100 years. Penciled numbers on the inside of a stock are not hard to replicate. As others have stated the workers at the factory were CRAFTSMAN however there were and are comparable folks working outside the factory. Especially in the field of woodworking. Gagne and Brown come to mind.

For those of you that are purist S&W collectors, the term used by the founders was "checking" and not checkering according to the old factory documents. Just another one of those terms that they used to stand away from other gun manufacturers of the day, especially that dreaded company down the street in CT know by its 4 letter word name. Crane/yoke, grips/stocks are a couple of the others.

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James Redfield
LM #497

While I agree the subject pair of this thread do not look factory checkered to me: I also knew Liz Shuter and have to agree with Masterpiece, that the preponderance of evidence she owned/observed convinced me that factory checkered M frame grips are a reality. And examples of those that do not letter as factory are a simple anomaly of the records.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

For what it's worth, here are a couple of 3rd Model Ladysmiths that I own, one nickel and one blue. Both have what appear to be factory checkered stocks, although I haven't yet lettered either.

Tom K,

Thanks so much for posting the photos of Your Two Little Ladysmiths...Especially so of the Stock Panel Close-Ups!!

Main reason I make mention of the Stock Panel Close-Ups is they show...What I believe...To be excellent representations of "Factory" Checked Stock Panels as they look as close to identical to those on My Two 6" Targets I've been unable to take photos of as yet...Sorry!!

I also believe what's throwing everyone off on these...Being they're so small...Is the fact the Checked Areas on these Little Ladysmiths give the impression...If not fact...To having Finer Checkering than most are accustomed to seeing on the Larger Frame Pre-War Revolvers!! Sorry, but I'm not sure of the Lines per Inch as I've never been very good at figuring that out...Hopefully you'll get my meaning!! Thanks Again Tom!!

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Masterpiece

Those are beautiful, Tom, thanks for posting them. And Masterpiece, thank you for your additional input. The style on all these checked stocks seems to match exactly. Next question, then, has anybody ever had one of these letter with factory checked stocks?

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Ain't This Fun Though?

Look at how the checkering is with regards to the layout on the second set depicted, the more red toned stocks. Most specifically, surrounding the escutcheon. This set of stocks, as with the OPs, contains checkering that is composed such that the escutcheon is NOT centered within the dismond non checkered area. Smith & Wesson’s quality control would not allow for a set of grips that did not contain an escutcheon perfectly centered on the diamond and is proof that this set and the OPs cannot contain factory original checkering (or checking).

You mean like this?
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This is an M&P 1905 4th Change.

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Ain't This Fun Though?

mrcvs,

Sorry to disagree, but that's a pretty hard statement to confirm without confirmation of a Factory Engineering Order or Notation stating so noted in Factory Documents!!

Especially so given over the past 50+ years I've observed first-hand possibly hundreds known "Guaranteed Factory Original" Checked Stocks that don't fit the description you're describing...Very rarely are many "Picture Perfect" given in that time period these were checked by Human Hands...Not by Machines!!

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Masterpiece

Quality control wouldn’t allow for a diamond not perfectly centered, that’s just silly. When I go to a show and am looking at guns I generally look at the factory stocks before the gun. Factory stocks are commonly flawed. Way to much is made of the legendary quality control, these were a product made to be shipped and sold, a very high quality product no doubt but this often referenced image of guns and grips being hand built is just wrong IMO. They were manufactured in a very refined process but they were produced much like any other product. Sorry that’s a rant I suppose !

Also the scale of these Ladysmith grips is such that comparable work on them is at least several times more difficult than even J frame grips.

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kbgrips.com

Here’s three pair, all with the escutcheon centered on the diamond, with reasonable tolerances.

I’m fairly certain one would create the diamond around the escutcheon and checker outwards to the already scribed or checkered boundaries. Not the other way around, meaning diamond placement would be more random.

Here’s another three pair of stocks that prove my point, all three at once, then two close up photographs.

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Well if your hand checkering you establish two master lines and work from there and those are located with a template to approximate the finished diamond. The factory used a power tool that ran at a furious rate, overruns were very common. Your examples are nice and are approximately centered within reason as you say but finding another three that are not would not be to difficult. Just my observations, but I look at this stuff very very close, maybe to much.

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kbgrips.com

Back to the original set, the top cut when enlarged looks choppy and irregular, but again just an observation.

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kbgrips.com

So I guess that this K-22 that I just noticed in the Forum Classifieds has a right stock panel that was not checkered by the factory?



But the left one was?

I don’t know, but I guess I am wrong then. The pre war N frame stocks I have, which are several, plus several Triple Lock revolvers, tend to be more consistent.