hey guys, was able to get this awesome piece, is a 98+ condition, was wondering to get letter and an original golden box, what do u thing about this?

Please share ur thoughts


Regards

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here more pics

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Beautiful gun!!! That looks like a Mexican Model to me (one of 2,900, SN Range S812000 - S833000) - the post-war .38 M&P Target, prior to the factory coming out with the K38 Masterpiece. BUT I am no expert on this model...but I do have to say WOW!!! I also do not believe that it shipped in a gold box, but in one of the burgundy boxes (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Thanks for sharing,

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Yeah, same here, it's Mexican Target, was lucky to get it, also read that was complete with pre parts, got confuse with grips to be honest, was expecting pre magnas as well, but anyhow, it's gorgeous, im very happy

Count me among the jealous!...I assume this will soon be lettered, and if so the letter may clear up in which box it was shipped if you request that information...Supercool gun......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Richard,

It is most definitely a Model of 1946 (Mexican Model) with Serial Number 833717...If I'm reading it correctly!! Hopefully...If willing the OP will confirm that!!

Also...Concerning the Box it would have shipped in...I believe depending on whatever Shipping Box was available at the time...It could have been shipped in either Box...A Gold or Late Pre-War Dark Burgundy Box!!

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Masterpiece

Very fortunate acquisition, in beautiful condition. Your lucky.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

yeah, didn't know how bad need that letter now

was digging around and there was an example at RIA, and it came with a golden box, but are right let's see which box it was the one

woden,

Don't take this a gospel, but the Boxes I've observed Correctly Serial-Numbered to Revolvers that are in the 833,000 Range all have been in the Early Post-War Gold Shipping Box!!

That aside...Like I noted earlier...Please don't take this as an absolute certainty given if there weren't any Gold Boxes available when it was being boxed for shipping...There's always a possibility it could have shipped in one of the Late Pre-War Dark Burgundy Two-Piece Boxes if there was one handy at the time!!

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Masterpiece

I show a Mexican Model near that serial number that shipped in October, 1946. Either box could be correct.

Those stocks are the early postwar style and are correct for the period. I've not found any prewar style Magna stocks that shipped later than April, 1946.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

My gun S814910 shipped 30APR46 (Birthday tomorrow!).

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RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

That is a beautiful gun and anyone would be proud to have it in their collection.

As far as an original golden box, as a purist collector there is only one, the one it came in and hopefully numbered to that gun. IMHO, using any period correct box that a gun did not ship in removes the possibility of the correct gun ever finding its box.

Everyone sees these things differently but just my opinion. I have often wished that there was a way for collectors to list items in their possession that are true Smith and Wesson but not original to anything in their collection. To me the possibility of reuniting a box or set of stocks to an original gun is a very cool aspect of collecting. I have seen it happen a few times but it is rare.

If there was a central data file where collectors could list their excess items I feel that it might happen more often.

Just my humble opinion and worth exactly what was paid for it...........

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James Redfield
LM #497

Unless there is already confirming information about it being a Mexican model, a factory letter ought to be ordered.

Regards, Mike Priwer

First off, congratulations. The 1946 Mexican Target is one of rarest of the rare. Nearly all production was exported to Mexico, with small shipments to Central American countries and Uruguay reported in addition. I track these guns, and yours is only the sixth specimen known to the broad collector community, though one might reasonably suspect that a few more are locked up in private and out-of-sight collections.

Roy Jinks once said he has lettered about 10 specimens of this model in the last few decades. You should definitely get a letter.

If the S/N on this revolver is indeed S833717, that is the highest serial number on a 1946 Target known to me. Records report that the last production block ran from S833701 to S833860, but the last three serial numbers of that range have been reliably associated with some short-barrel M&Ps without target sights. The highest serial number on a 1946 is probably no higher than S833857.

I'm not sure that any of the regular shipments ever left the factory in gold boxes. Some are known to have shipped in maroon M&P boxes with a stamped "Target" (or perhaps pasted label) on one end of the box. Some overrun production remained in S&W's hands until the 1950s, at which time they may have been shipped in gold boxes. [EDITED TO ADD: At least one known 1946 Target is said to be NIB and has its original gold box. Unfortunately this gun is "open on the books" in S&W parlance, meaning we do not know when it shipped or where it went.]

Your revolver seems to have a variant sideplate marking in which the "MARCA REGISTRADA" is fit to the curve of the REG. U.S. PAT OFF stamp just above it. On my specimen, with a serial number nearly 20,000 lower than yours, that last line is stamped in a straight line a little below the rest of the company logo.

A fine acquisition! Enjoy the owning of it.

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David Wilson

Thank u all for ur comments, know that get the box, grips are serial'ed and it's like winning lotto to find the match ones, or maybe a presentation box? perhaps

A request: can you post a close-up pic of the front sight? I can't tell from the photos if it has an embedded bead, which was (I believe) standard for this model.

Or if a close-up is hard to produce, your report of its presence or absence is fine. Thanks!

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David Wilson

Very nice woden.Enjoy it!

David:

From this photo, it sure looks to have an embedded bead in the Front Sight:

Isolated:

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Richard, I have to agree. Guess I just didn't look closely enough. But even allowing for soft shadow effects, I still don't see any contrast between the bead and the vertical blade face around it. Whether you call it brass or gold, I'd think it would brighter than it appears.

ADDED: I just noticed that one of the OP's photos showing the gun from the back of the frame forward has a bright glint at the top of the front sight. Under direct illumination there is clearly a gold highlight. My uncertainty is resolved.

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David Wilson

The RIA description. The Mexican Model S&W is one of things, like the Maltese Falcon, of which dreams are made of (at least for S&W collectors). Mexican S&W 38 M&P Target Revolver with Factory Letter | Rock Island Auction

Note that the MARCA REGISTRADA stamp on the RIA revolver (S833542) is a straight horizontal imprint rather than aligned on a concentric path with the circular logo as we see on the OP's gun (serial number S833717, with a little uncertainty about the last digit).

I recently learned from invoices for 1946 Targets (a tip of the hat to SWCA member RM Vivas -- thank you, Bob!) that the square notch rear sight seen on earlier specimens was not an original specification; early orders were simply silent on the matter. A 200-unit order dated 8 July 1946 and fulfilled in December contained an additional specification for a U-notch rear sight. The front-sight specification was always for a 1/8" Call Gold Bead.

The RIA revolver was not photographed from an angle that reveals the shape of the rear notch. I suspect that only revolvers with serial numbers beginning S833... would have the U-notch rear sight, but probably not all of them. The revolver in the top post of this thread has a square-notch rear sight.

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David Wilson

I just have to say, woden, your Mexican Model is a beautiful gun in every way.
Thanks for sharing your rare find! And, I appreciate all the knowledgeable replies, too.

Where else can you find such a wealth of fascinating history and information?
I doubt I'll ever see one. But if I do, I am now informed as to what I'm looking at.

-Bill

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Veteran Paratrooper, '86-'90

Given your desire for knowledge concerning which style/color box, you MUST pose that question within your letter order. (I can't recall any mention of the box in any of my letters---unless I'd asked---and it's more than likely their response will be a best guess rather than a definitive statement.) The good news is their best guess trumps any of ours!

Bottom Line: Given virtually no factory records on target sights, it's a good bet there will be absolutely none on boxes. Jinks' explanation for such goes like this:"This is not a surprise as many of what the foreman (read Plant Manager) considered as minor changes is not recorded."

Next Bottom Line: It doesn't hurt to ask.

Ralph Tremaine

All I have to add here is … wow

Here is some information I have on my Mexican Model, and other interesting information about these guns. First, here is one of two factory letters.





This gun is pictured in Roy's History of Smith & Wesson, page 175, top right corner. Depending on the edition, it may be one or two page numbers different. This letter refers to the gun as a Military & Police Target Model, and as a Mexican Model, which is the gun's nickname.

This next image is another factory letter, and the gun is always referred to by the factory name of Smith & Wesson Military & Police, and does not use the nickname Mexican Model. However, it does include the adjustable rear sight.



Next document is about Antonio del Conde, the man to whom the guns were shipped.



The next two pages are a story written by Col. Rex Applegate, about his life and times as a gun importer in Mexico. He seems to have been the factories agent, or representative, for the Mexican Models.





From some other documents I have, while my gun was shipped to Mexico, a lot of others are either open on the shipping records, or went to other places besides Mexico. For example, the gun in the Rock Island link (in an earlier post on this thread). is open on the shipping records. Ray Cheely, the founder of the Historical Foundation, was apparently the owner of the gun.

The last picture is the last paragraph of the factory letter about this gun, stating that it is open on the shipping ledger.



In almost all the documents I have shown here, there is mention of the number 2091 as the number of guns produced for the Mexican contract. There is also mention of the shipping ledger entries being open for some of them. S833542 is one of these guns. From earlier in this thread, the OP's gun looked to be S833717, but was not confirmed by the OP. If it is S833717, then I would not be surprised if it, also, is open on the shipping ledger. It's serial number is only 175 numbers after S833542.


Regards, Mike Priwer

DCWilson,

Sorry, was a complicated days but finally was able have time and take pics

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I added some more documents to my post on this thread.

Mike Priwer