Hi all, I just got this Smith and Wesson revolver, and I feel like I have a general idea of what it is, but some other things have me stumped. I added some pictures, and I didn't notice any model number, just a serial number, and these little symbols that are next to the CTG on the barrel. Any help is much appreciated. I'm also curious if people have luck with shooting these? I don't mean it to be my main gun for anything, but I would like to take it to the range. Someone scared me about "catastrophic failure" with older guns, and my understanding is that is more likely from using the wrong ammo as compared to an old gun being akin to a ticking time bomb. Either way, something about it made me fall in love, but the other part of me feels silly knowing not much of it! Is it a 1905? 1910? Any estimate of a shipping date with a serial number of 3228XX? The serial number on the butt matches the cylinder. One of the things that perplexes me the most is that there is no Smith and Wesson stamp on it, and the same with the wooden stock.

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It's a post WWI M&P with a chopped barrel, aftermarket grips, and refinished in nickel. No collector value unless you can prove it was owned by someone famous...

Should be a fine shooter if the crown isn't all messed up from the chop job.

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Psalm 27:2

You have a Model 1905 Military & Police revolver. That serial number falls in the range listed as 1915-1942. I'm afraid the book doesn't get closer than that. Best guess would be the late 1910s, maybe early 1920s.
The offset barrels roll marks indicate that the barrel has been shortened. And its been nickle plated somewhere along the line.
The little symbols are what collectors commonly refer to as dingbats. They do nothing more than frame the cartridge designation markings.
If its in good mechanical condition and the timing is good, it should be safe to fire with standard velocity ammo.

Welcome aboard from ol' Wyo, brittneysue.

I'm quite sure a few of the local aficionados will be along soon with
more specific details about the era your .38 M&P originated.

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

The lack of any logo might be either from the refinish or wartime production...No address line might also be poor refinish or pre-1922 production......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Welcome to the Forum!

Serial numbers for that model passed 400000 in the mid '20s, so that one probably left the factory around 1920-22. I'm not sure it has been refinished. The photos are overexposed, but it looks to me as though someone took a gun with a failing blue finish and just rubbed it with steel wool and tried to make it look better without necessarily making it look new. There seems to be shallow pitting everywhere, so possibly the gun was completely covered in thin rust at some point. Note that the sideplate screws seem unmangled; they may never have been out of the gun. Note too that the sideplate to frame fit is ungullied. That indicates that if the gun was refinished, it was done by someone who knew how to do it sensitively.

I don't understand the dark patch visible on the forward top of the cylinder in the right side photo of the gun. There is also a tiny black spot just above the retaining pin in the barrel underlug. Could those be remnants of the original blue?

As others noted, the barrel has definitely been cut, probably from six inches to a little less than four.

If the action is tight, there is no reason not to shoot that gun. Standard loads of .38 Special are fine, but +P loads are probably best avoided. The gun won't detonate, but why stress a century old gun unnecessarily? I usually shoot low pressure wadcutter loads in my older .38s.

I may be way off base in my understanding of the photos and the nature of the finish. Let some more opinions pile up and see if others agree. I could be just another average old guy with bad eyes.

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David Wilson

Thank you all, I'm no collector by any means, other than I like to visit the range, so no loss in that regard. I do wonder though, what causes people to refinish these revolvers? It's a shame if it did cover what may have been there previously, but all in all, the timing is fine and I'll take it out in about 2 weeks when I visit my range. Enjoy your days everyone, and thanks again.

Showing a picture of the underside of the barrel on the flat area with the cylinder open may give us a clue to the original finish...The presence of a stamped "B" preceding the serial number could indicate an original blued finish......Ben

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It appears the ole girl suffered the fate of many guns that were mass produced after the turn of the century. Cut and nickel plate. Nobody cared about serial numbers. Much less over buffing and homemade grips. Who
cared. Paint your tractor with a brush and the wrong color paint. Had a Deere tractor painted Ford blue with red fenders. Ran like new.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Thank you for your reply! I took the photos outside in the sun, maybe was not the best idea, but I took some inside ones showing some of the finish up close. The dark spot on the cylinder almost looks like a spot that peeled off or wore off, I cannot be too sure. When I took the stock off, there were some dark spots like corrosion, not sure if that gives any better idea of if its been refinished or not. I checked the timing on it and it seems just fine, so I'm excited to take it out! It might not be a collector grade, but Im pretty happy to add it.

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No B to be found on this one! Thank you.

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Thank you for the additional photos. It now seems to me that the dark spot on the cylinder is the result of flaked off nickel, so I was wrong in my initial interpretation. It still seems odd to me that the nickel finish carries multiple fine striations, but maybe an earlier owner used whatever rags and compounds were available to try to polish it up and make it look better.

Shoot it in good health!

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David Wilson

It might be originally a nickel gun, but S&W didn't plate the hammer and trigger, which are dead giveaways of a refinish if found as such.

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Psalm 27:2

In addition, I believe the extractor star would still be blued on a factory nickeled gun...But so far we haven't seen that view......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

It certainly does look like some sort of flaking, and yes there is alot of pitting and interesting texture. Which makes me think, is there a certain cleaning procedure with these old guns? Thank you again!

Here's that view, looks about the same as everything else?

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I Googled a Factory Nickel and I see what you mean. Is there a reason people refinished them in Nickel? Was it purely aesthetic? I do love the Blued and Parkerized finishes...I guess that's a reason to get another someday!

In that last picture, the finish doesn't look nearly as beat up as all the other pics. I think this is a case of the camera making it look much worse than it does in person.

Is that extractor star actually blued? Kinda looks like it.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

I agree, the finish does not look nearly as weathered in this last photo...And the star is blued, and the hammer seems to be color case-hardened...I think it may have been originally nickeled from the factory...Can we see pics of both sides of the grip frame with the grips off?......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Welcome to the Forum.

Smith & Wesson revolvers built around the time of WW I did not receive any S&W markings.

The stocks are non factory Magnas. This revolver would been shipped with service stocks.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

The bottom line of all this is what you already said, "----------I'm pretty happy to add it."

That says it all, and that's all that counts.

And then, as usual, I'm compelled to utter a few words about the cautions of shooting +P ammo in it.

1. The best reason to stay away from + P is the price---can you say "rip-off"?

2. The next, and my favorite, is the +P hype doesn't track with FACTS!

Here's just one set:

The muzzle velocity of the 158 grain bullet load from 1925 is 858 feet per second. This from S&W's catalog of the time.

The muzzle velocity of today's 158 grain bullet load is 755 feet per second. This from the tables published in the Gun Digest.

Then there's the muzzle velocity of today's +P 158 grain bullet load some of the folks are cautioning you about using (also from the Gun Digest tables)----890 feet per second. I reckon you can see why they're concerned----or then again, maybe not.

I've wondered about the whys and wherefores of +P from time to time, and came up with this illustrative tale:

The scene is the conference room of any ammo manufacturer. The guy from the corner office is asking for input on how to increase the profit margin. A bright eyed, bushy tailed kid who doesn't yet know the first thing about the business sticks his hand up in the air, and waves it frantically----calling out "I KNOW---I KNOW!!"

Nobody laughs out loud, but there are more than a few stifled snickers from around the table. The Boss Man knows better than to shut the kid down, and gives him the go-ahead.

The Kid says, "How about this?!! We increase the loads back to about what they used to be, give them a catchy name, and charge more for them."

Nobody says a word----except for the Boss Man. He says, "I sure am glad I thought of that! How'd you like to have lunch with me in the Executive Dining Room, and we can talk more about it?"

The Kid was promoted to Executive Vice President a week later, and they all lived happily ever after---all except for those who snickered at him when he was waving his hand and hollering I KNOW--I KNOW. Those folks were tossed out on their butts by the new Executive Vice President.

Ralph Tremaine

What does case-hardened mean? Here's some more pictures.

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Thank you for your reply! You are right, all that matters in the end is that I'm happy to have it. I do also find alot of fascination in all the things I've learned since I purchased it! Seems to be sort of a rabbit hole, lots and lots of interesting facts and history to learn, definitely been a fun few days, and I appreciate everyone's sharing of their own knowledge. Since we are on the subject of ammo, is there an issue with using less than 158 grain? Would 130 grain ammo be inappropriate to use with this gun? That's what we have at the house at the moment, but if I need to get something else I absolutely will. Thank you!

130 gr ammo is fine but you may find that it shoots low. These guns were regulated for 158 gr, but yours has been cut so maybe not. You won't know until you shoot it.

The hammer & trigger are hardened more or less skin deep. The mottled colors on these pieces are a result of this process.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Brittneysue welcome to the forum you have already gotten great information. Hang around this is simply the best site for all things Smith & Wesson. A word of warning though these things are worse than Lays potato chips starts out with one. Then you start seeing all the other neat ones around here pretty soon you've got a heard of em. All joking aside this site has saved me from making bad purchases, and helped me make some great ones. Really this is like a university of higher learning for all things Smith & Wesson.

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Randy

While I identified a load with only the bullet weight (158 grains), I did so because pretty much everybody who's been involved with this stuff for any length of time recognizes it as the stock, standard, everyday load for a .38 Special----that, and the 148 grain wadcutter. That said, I am not familiar with any loads using a 130 grain bullet---or any of the others besides the two I mentioned above. That's mostly because I'm old---and old fashioned---and haven't fired hardly any handguns since I joined the ranks of lunatic fringe collectors------a looooooooooooong time ago.

The most pleasant to shoot from a .38 Special are the wadcutters---also the most accurate.

Ralph Tremaine

Gil gave you a good basic description of the term...It's meant to harden the surface of the steel to forestall undue wear...The colors are just a bonus...More details here...

The picture below is not entirely clear, but it appears your far left sideplate screw is a buttonhead indicating the original grips would have been standard service grips which left this screw exposed...The use of Magnas or target grips of any kind would have caused the upper corner of the right grip panel to protrude slightly and possibly weaken the grip material...This can be remedied by either machining a small indention with a drillpoint in the grip where the screwhead makes contact, or just replacing the screw with a flathead design......Ben

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I did wonder about how it will shoot since most of the videos I've seen of them have been with longer barrels, but I will be taking her out just a couple of weeks now that the range I like it back open. I'll update sometime, we will see how it goes.

Thank you, I will definitely be sticking around, I have enjoyed reading everything and learning new stuff, and to be honest, I have already began looking at other revolvers and even books, as I have found it all to be pretty fascinating. I don't doubt I'll add more! Luckily, now I know I can run here and get second opinions the next time I find something I like. My other half and I have a pretty long standing joke of finding any reason to get a new gun, and I am all for adding a few nicer revolvers to my ever evolving collection. Plus, we have a son, and he drives me the most to learn things. He is not quite at the point of appreciating and being able to learn much, but I can't wait until hes older and we can pass along some of the interesting things we have learned. Speaking of, any books that are the best for learning about all these Smith and Wessons? Much appreciated!

Thank you for that info, I'll go ahead and seek out some wadcutters.

Oh, got ya, thank you!

It does in fact warp out right in that spot, and I was not exactly sure why, and it's now funny to me how obvious the reason is. I will go ahead and fix that. I will also check out that link you shared and read up on the case hardening, thank you!

Let's see how fast I can type this. The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 4th Edition. You might want to hold off a bit as the 5th Ed. should come out soon.

Those may be hard to find these days. They are available online. Wadcutters are an odd looking round to most people. The bullet is a cylinder and is completely seated within the case. The design has a focus on accuracy and little else.

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I would also recommend Charles Pate's U.S. Handguns of World War II, The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers. Great reference book that has some very in-depth information on S&W revolvers of that time period.

These are all within easy reach at my desk......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

The marks next to CTG in the original post look somewhat like a crown N, a German imperial/Weimar proof mark. That could be a fun gun to own with a puzzling history.

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Kind regards, Heinz

The gun was shipped sometime in 1919 or 1920. The stocks on the gun are the Magna design, and were not available until the 1930's. The screw heads on the gun are all correct, so I would not replace the far-left screw with a flat-top one.

I assume that the serial number on the butt, flat under the barrel, and rear face of the cylinder all agree ?

Mike Priwer

This responder makes an interesting, and perhaps controversial point: "The design has a focus on accuracy and little else."

There are those of us, in yet another department of the "lunatic fringe" besides collectors, who focus on accuracy---and little else. I was one of those-----a loooooooooooong time ago, when I took up handloading. My objective, my ONLY objective was accuracy---out to 50 yards---because that's the greatest distance encountered in what was called Bullseye competition.

Job one was to make ammo more accurate than factory. That was accomplished in short order, and I found myself moving on from there to better yet.

So what's "better yet"? I eventually decided there's two different definitions of accuracy----practical accuracy and ultimate accuracy. We often see examples of practical accuracy here when folks proudly post pictures of their groups fired at ranges all the way up to 10-15 yards. The groups look like they were made with a shotgun, but they're all on the paper----practical accuracy.

The groups we don't often see are ragged one hole examples out to 50 yards---ultimate accuracy.

I wasn't able to shoot those ragged one hole groups standing on my hind legs, and holding the gun with one hand; so I cheated--and got one of those then new Ransom Machine Rests. Then I bolted a K-38 to it, and BEHOLD------ragged one hole groups!! WELL!! If the gun can do it, so can I------some times---on some days----every now and then.

Given there are different strokes for different folks, practical accuracy is all well and good, but the bottom line is there are shooters----and there are people who shoot. Pick one, and be happy---but know it takes a while to become a shooter.

That was then, and now is now. Now I can shoot with ultimate accuracy with scope sighted rifles from a bench rest----and it hasn't been all that long ago that I had David Carroll sell all my rifles---all except one---and I haven't fired that one for quite a spell.

Ralph Tremaine

But consider test conditions. I don't have anything from 1925 but in 1939 the standard velocity was 850 fps from a 6" barrel. Now was that a straight test barrel or a real revolver?

Nowadays, SAAMI authorizes both a 7.7" test barrel - which will get you all enthused if you load by Hodgdon - and a 4" vented barrel to simulate a revolver. Gun Digest is apparently going by the vented values.

For the common reload of a 158 gr lead bullet and 3.5 gr Bullseye, I find
Sharpe prewar 910 fps in 6" by Hercules. "factory lead"
Lyman #44 826 fps in 6" K38. #358311
Lyman #49 863 fps in 4" test. #358311
Alliant today 814 fps in 6" Speer swaged SWC.

...and that would be me. I am a "non-tactical" shooter. Or perhaps a better description for me is that I approach shooting revolvers in the same way that a non-hunting archer approaches archery. So ultimate accuracy and practical accuracy are the same thing in some disciplines.

So next up, brittneysue is going to be over in the reloading forum. Once she recovers from sticker shock at the price of 38 special ammo.

Another rabbit hole ...

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Oh wow, may be hard to find indeed! Never seen anything like that, but I suppose I'll keep it in mind and maybe someday I will get lucky.

Awesome, any idea on what exactly I could search online to find a better fit for stocks? All serial numbers do match!

Hah! Trust me, that is the exact spot in my brain at the moment, majorly enthralled with all this information and also super impressed that there are living breathing human beings able to share this knowledge and I am not having to completely rely on Google. Rabbit hole indeed!

I like that, it is so true; "there are shooters, and there are people who shoot" I probably fall more in the lines of just shooting, but I do try to work on my development of muscle memory and comfortability with all my firearms, and hope to develop a strong skill in accuracy, eventually.

I think we have another trope to add to "Collectors vs Accumulators".

"Shooters vs. People Who Shoot".

I like it.

Edit: This has been nagging at me. "juxtaposition" is probably better than "trope".

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Just Say No - To Social Media

At online ammo sellers, Sellier Bellot and Magtech are about the only factory 148gr wadcutters available these days, $24.95 and $26.95/box, respectively. I picked up a case of Magtech from SGAmmo late last year to save the brass, and compare to my own handloads. A couple of LGS in my area are stocking the Magtech, but at over $30.00 a box.

Long gone are the days that I could find Winchester or Remington 148gr WC at local stores for $8-9.00 a box.

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Heavily armed old man.

I bought some 148 grain wadcutters from Buffalo Bore a couple of years ago when supplies were much tighter......Ben

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