Smokeless: in what year(s) were S&W revolvers 1st made for use with smokeless powder?

Glenn s&c · May 13, 2009

This is something that's important to me, because I shoot most of my guns; and, since I love all my Smiths (and Colts), I want to be able to shoot smokeless powder cartriges, and spare the Smith the mess of blackpowder. I've been trying for years to learn when Smith & Wesson revolvers were first guaranteed for smokeless, and so far haven't been able to get an answer. Do any of you guys know?

For what it's worth, I've been trying to get the same answer for my Colts, again without luck; I just posted this question in the ColtForum, and only one person had any answers, and that was for the SAA only. That, I expected, but what surprised me is that only 93 people even read the post (and half of them were me). My question about using linseed oil on walnut grips got 28 answers and 669 hits. I guess it's just me, but the blackpowder v smokeless issue seems important...to me.

Thanks.

Glenn

pace40 · May 13, 2009

smith17 · May 13, 2009

Glenn:
I have a couple of UMC boxes, one of which was guaranteed by the cartridge collector seller to be from 1902, which have statements on the sides indicating they are "Adapted to .38 Smith & Wesson New Military Revolvers". One is a 158 grain load, the other is a 116 grain sharp shoulder bullet, both are smokeless. Both are pre-Remington merger. I think I also have a Winchester box from 1906-08 that is smokeless but can't put my fingers on it right now.
Ed

stanws6 · May 13, 2009

Glenn, this probably won't be of much help to you, but since my latest addiction is 32 Safety Hammerless models, this means something to me also. I have two second models and three third models. Since they were all made after 1899 I have no problem shooting either factory smokeless cartridges or my own reloads. I'm about to aquire a first model made before 1899 and I don't want to hurt it with the wrong loads. I think it will be fine with these mild smokeless rounds, but it would be great to know if and when a change was made in them for the new smokeless cartridges. Hope we can get an answer.

pace40 · May 13, 2009

The 1907 catalog is the first to "guarantee" the revolvers for use with factory smokeless ammo while the 1906 catalog specifically states that they do not.

Glenn s&c · May 13, 2009

Originally posted by pace40:
1907

Pace, thanks a lot . I'm amazed that it can be distilled into a single year. With Colt's, the change was gradual, and perhaps a decade passed between the manufacture of the first smokeless DA revolvers for the military, and the year in which all models in all calibers were guaranteed for smokeless. ("Perhaps"...I still don't really know.) Did Smith & Wesson convert everything to smokeless in 1907, and were all pre-1907 revolvers designed and built to be used w/blackpowder?

pace40 · May 13, 2009

Glenn

I really don't think they made any specific design changes to accomodate for smokeless until later on. We still see fouling cups in the teens. I just think they realized that the cartridge manufacturers had figured out the correct loads to maintain the pressures within spec. Here's the 1906 catalog page discussing it.

Glenn s&c · May 13, 2009

Ed and Stan, many thanks. I share Stan's addiction to .32 (and .38) top-break Safetys. My earliest (not hammerless) was, according to Mr. Jinks' letter, shipped in 1887, so there's no question of smokeless for that one; my latest is a .32 hammerless made in 1907. For what it's worth, I've put a few hundred rounds of smokeless-powder cartridges through it, without a problem. It never occurred to me that 1907 could possibly be a blackpowder year. Given Pace's reply, that would be marginal.

Stunning...in about fifteen minutes, this post, in this forum, has gotten three times as many responses as my post in the ColtForum got in four days. Maybe it's time to reassess my loyalties.

Pace, Ed and Stan: thank you.

Best,

Glenn

smith17 · May 13, 2009

And, Glenn, half of the views of this thread weren't even yours!!!! Good luck in your quest. By the way, black powder loadings of .38 Special were still in the Winchester ammo catalog in 1938 but not in 1941
Ed

Texas Star · May 13, 2009

If it helps, Webley thickened the cylinders of the MK IV revolver in 1913 for greater safety with smokeless. The result was the MK V, made for only two years. But some earlier Marks were re-cylindered.

T-Star

Glenn s&c · May 13, 2009

Pace, thanks a lot for the '06 catalog excerpt. I had thought that there would have been specific design changes, in order to accomodate the higher pressures of smokeless, changes like the thicker cylinders that Texas Star mentions, or better control of headspace and better heat treatment of cylinders. Also, different materials (steel). If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the guns didn't change so much as that Smith & Wesson gained more confidence in the commercial smokeless loadings available by 1907. Correct?

And, Ed: I'm not really surprised that blackpowder loadings were still available in 1938; but, I just assumed they were intended for "blackpowder guns", and that "blackpowder guns" were something different and separate from "smokeless-powder guns". Apparently it's not as simple as I would have wished.

Maybe if I phrased this differently: Is there a year of manufacture of S&W revolvers after which you would feel confident you could shoot the gun with modern smokeless cowboy loads? Would you feel safe firing moderate-power smokeless loads w/lead bullets, in any Smith made in 1907 or after?
Or a different year?

Sorry to drag this out, but, as I said, this is something which has long been important to me for a long time, and I'm suddenly closer to an answer than I've ever been. Again, thanks for all your great help.

Best,

Glenn

pace40 · May 14, 2009

Different question, Glenn. S&W did make these types of modifications later on. Don't remember exactly when but I can look it up later if someone else doesn't chime in first. FWIW, I shoot 1899 M&P's with mild cowboy loads. There are manfacturuers that make smokeless rounds for specific model guns too. I shoot Model 2 Armys from the 1860's with these rounds. Navy Arms comes to mind. I just don't do 500 round range sessions with them. The problem with this is that if something does go wrong, you can't just call the factory for the parts to fix it. In reality, some of these guns are just for lookin at.

H Richard · May 14, 2009

It was my understanding that S&W began heat treating the cylinders for higher pressures in the 1925 time frame. That it was O.K. for regular smokeless powder loads, but not heavier (hand loads) until then.

Glenn s&c · May 14, 2009

Originally posted by pace40:
Different question, Glenn. S&W did make these types of modifications later on. Don't remember exactly when but I can look it up later if someone else doesn't chime in first. FWIW, I shoot 1899 M&P's with mild cowboy loads.

Pace, if you get a chance to look it up (dates of modifications for smokeless), I'd appreciate it. You could email me directly ([email protected]) if you think the other forum members will have had enough of this by then.

The 1899 First Model was intended for use with cartridges loaded with 21½ grains of black powder; if you feel safe using it with modern cowboy loads, maybe that should settle the issue for me. What I had in mind was to use Winchester's Super Match load, 148gr LWC @ 710fps. Sound okay for use in a First Model or Model of 1902 M&P? How about 158gr LRN @ 755fps?

Thanks, Pace. And, thanks H. Richard. I'd assumed that cylinders were first heat treated about the time that smokeless loads became common. I have a lot of assumptions that are wrong. One less now.

Glenn

pace40 · May 14, 2009

Glenn

Just to clarify, I make no reference to "safety" using smokeless loads in early guns. I will refer to the last paragraph of the 1906 page above though. "...we have no desire to detract from its merits or discourage its use when properly handled."

This exact quote is in the 1903 catalog as well so I feel moderately confident that low load smokeless is OK especially on a limited diet.

Also, I can find no reference to engineering changes specifically stated for smokeless powder use. I guess the catalog reference is the best I can do.

Glenn s&c · May 14, 2009

+

Originally posted by pace40:
Also, I can find no reference to engineering changes specifically stated for smokeless powder use. I guess the catalog reference is the best I can do.

Thanks so much, Pace, for taking the time to check. I guess the reason I've never found the answer (to the question of when S&W converted revolver designs and steels for use w/smokeless) is that there isn't an answer.

When Colt's first chambered the SAA for .357 Magnum, in 1935, they made at least three significant engineering changes, and switched to "higher tensile strength, fine grain ordnance gun quality steel cylinder blanks." That's the kind of bright-line change I had expected for the blackpowder>smokeless conversion. Anyhow...many thanks.

Glenn

pace40 · May 14, 2009

Kept looking cause I knew I saw something somewhere. per Neal & Jinks...

May 17, 1919:Order to heat treat all .32 Hand Ejector Winchester cylinders by J.H. Wesson

Feb12, 1923: 38/32 yoke stud diameter reduced .020" adding .010" to wall thickness at cylinder swingout cut in frame by order of H. Wesson.

May 1, 1933: All HE yokes heat treated after this date per H Wesson.

Looks like subtle strength changes on various models over time. Not a specific event.

Glenn s&c · May 14, 2009

Pace, one of my random facts matches one of yours..."cylinders 1st heat-treated in 1919 @ sn 316,648"...that's for the M&P.

If you come up with anything else like this, I'd greatly appreciate your letting me know.

Again, many thanks.

Glenn

john traveler · May 16, 2009

The magic year 1907 may be connected to the introduction of the New Century or Triplelock revolver in .44 Special. The new cartridge was designed specifically to use the new bulky smokeless powders and required a case 0.2" longer than the .44 American and .44 Russian cases on which it was based.

Glenn s&c · May 16, 2009

I hate to hijack my own thread, but...Steve, thanks a lot for the quote from the supplement to the 1906 catalog. The fact that S&W's 1906 catalog (supplement) listed a gun intended to be used w/blackpowder is important information, and corrobates what Pace said earlier about the 1906 catalog specifically stating that S&W did not guarantee their guns for smokeless. I would really like to be able to read the contents of that catalog, and I think a lot of other people here would as well. If you ever felt like scanning the 1906 Smith catalog and posting the contents in the forum...well, just a suggestion. Possibly a violation of copyright as well. But, if it's legal to do so, it would be a great thing to share.

Thanks for your contribution.

Glenn

Smokeless: in what year(s) were S&W revolvers 1st made for use with smokeless powder?

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