I have never really payed attention to the differences in the older Knurling sight screw drivers but noticed one sold in the classifed and it is decribed as a 9 row I looked at the one I have and it is a 8 row does any know how many different variances there are?

hvac,
While I'm not an expert, I've heard it said in this section by some of the experts that the 8 and 9 rows were made concurrently and they are both the same value wise because there's no way to know which ones shipped when.

Bill

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US Marine, 16 years+

That's about it; 8 and 9 rows. But is it all blue steel, Nickel handle or aluminum handle?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

mine appears to be aluminum thanks for the info.

We've also heard two answers from Roy on the subject. One was that S&W made them "in house", the other that when they were busy, they farmed or jobbed them out.

There's so much we don't know. Much of what we think we know comes from finding a pristine gun, in its original box, with tools included. We often assume it came that way. But others of us have pristine guns we obtained, then matched a box or box and tools. The next gullible guy in the chain assumes he bought it either as its always been, or worse, from a guy who knew what should have been matched. Not always reliable.

We aren't sure, but we assume that prewar K22 Masterpieces shipped with large nickel adjusters. We also assume that the early postwar guns came with leftover nickel examples. But some of us have obtained early K serial guns with gold boxes. From that we assume they were shipped in them.

Later, we're pretty sure the nickel gave away to black oxide, often called blued. We only know that because so many of us have found and bought gold box guns with them inside.

Most of us stopped paying attention to the number of rows because they seemed to interchange. Earlier and later were seen with both row counts. Our assumption, right or wrong, was that it just didn't matter if the color and material was correct.

To make it worse, Roy has said he doesn't know, and the factory didn't bother to record such details. Very occasionally, we see a period picture of a S&W and its tools. From that we assume, right or wrong, the tool was the one being furnished. Could just as easily have been a box packer who got near the bottom of his bin and found an old one lying there.

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Dick Burg

To ad to what Dick said, Bill (Doc44) has told me the 44 magnums all shipped with the aluminum handle adjuster with either the 8 or 9 row being correct as was stated above.

BTW there is a long running argument on the nomenclature of this device...some say screwdriver while others say sight adjuster.

Now the purists who believe the latter is correct will point out fixed sight guns did not come with the tool.

Personally I believe multi-tool is appropriate. It can be used to adjust your sights BUT it is also the perfect size for the sideplate screws.

Dick,
I agree with the pitfalls you've described. But the assumption above is not one I share. Rather I PRESSUME pre war Masterpieces and also Reg Mags came with the small all steel nickel screwdriver for two reasons:
The small one was appropriate for the prewar era and the small one fits the sights on those guns. Why S&W would ship a a gun with a SD that doesn't fit the sights on that gun defies common sense when coupled with the fact that only adjustable sighted guns came with a screwdriver, confirms to me at least that they were intended as a sight adjustment tool no matter what other screws on the gun they may happen to "fit".

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hondo44,
Your presumption is totally incorrect. The Registered Magnums didn't have the same sighting system as the K22/40 Masterpieces. Thus, the K22/40 Masterpieces would have shipped with the larger screwdriver as Dick stated. This product change occurred only on the pre war Masterpieces.
I also support the idea that the K22/40 pre war guns shipped with the nine row knurled, nickel over steel sight adjustment tools.

bdGreen

bd is correct. Below is a picture of the New K-22 Masterpiece as shown in the All Model Circular from July 1940. As can be seen, it has the "modern" micrometer click rear sight that became standard after the war. The larger screwdriver (to me at least ) with the knurled, steel handle (nickel plated) is correct.

This model was also the first one to be built with the short action. Also, see History of Smith & Wesson by Roy Jinks, pages 172-173.

Bill

bd Green and Bill.

In the words of Fonzi from 'Happy Days': "I knew that!" (Smile) Now that I'm an old fart, I also know what oldtimers meant when they said: "I've forgotten more than (whomever) knows!"

Yes of course you're correct. I had a (another) mental lapse. The K22 prewar 1st model masterpieces introduced the Micro click sight and short action. Thanks for setting the record straight so that I didn't unnecessarily confuse forum readers.
I don't know why I fixated on the K22 and Reg Mag sights as being the same in my reference. I guess there's no argument about which the Reg Mag came with.

While we're on the subject, do either of you know if post war target guns that came with pre war sights came with the small nickle SD/SAT as well??

Thanks,

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Jim
S&WCA #819

To the best of my knowledge, all N and K frame target guns shipped in the postwar came with Micrometer sights. The only prewar sights shipped in the postwar I'm aware of were some Kit Guns. Its fair to assume they were supplied with suitable sight adjusting tools.

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Dick Burg

[/QUOTE]
To the best of my knowledge, all N and K frame target guns shipped in the postwar came with Micrometer sights. The only prewar sights shipped in the postwar I'm aware of were some Kit Guns. Its fair to assume they were supplied with suitable sight adjusting tools.[/QUOTE]

Dick,
Yes, I was referring to a '57 era .32 target I obtained without tools. I can agree with that assumption.

Thank you,

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Since you guys know a lot more about this than I do, how exactly do you tell the difference between an original and a fake?

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Rough waters ahead.

Good question, I'd like to know that too.

I do know that Smith has gone retro with the 29-10 Classics and the come with a knurled multi-tool ( ). I think they have more rows. I do know Doc can tell by sight as he saved me $100 at Tulsa.

Umm. If we told you, we'd have to kill you.

Ok, that wasn't what you were looking for?

Handle a few dozen or few hundred of them and you just get the idea from feel. Up until recently, there wasn't a big motivation to reproduce the postwar models. So the big bucks were in the faking of prewar models.

One of our posters here had someone in a machine shop do a run of them. He was very careful to make it clear they were repro's, and with those it was very easy to tell. The curvature of the top was just a little different. Then for fun, he had the handles made from Stainless Steel, not mild steel with nickel plating. Still shiny and looked very much like the originals, but not.

Every person to undertakes to recreate these things takes a different approach. Or maybe the same person changes his as we discover what he's doing.

Just like buying an old S&W, one of the safest ways is to buy from someone you know and trust, or has a reputation (hopefully a good one.)

Don't feel bad because you can't tell. At a show last year, Hugh May brought me a screwdriver, and he couldn't tell. He's one of the very best, so if he's in doubt, its at least a good fake. After I looked at it for about 10 minutes, I came to the same conclusion - I didn't know either. But I was flush with cash, and told him I'd pay him the $50 just to study it. He held out his hand.

I've got all kinds of cool toys. One of them is an Intel "Play Microscope". It plugs into your computer with a USB cord. You can select from a range of magnifications, but the weakest is the most useful for my purposes. If you put a known good one down and left click the image, it saves it. Then you put a questionable one down and do the same.

Some you can tell a difference in the final surface, as seen by the grit or how coarse it is, and also the direction of grinding and polishing. Pay special attention to the tip. Some of the supposed fakes have them ground in the direction of the shaft. All the known good ones are ground across the tip.

The problem is the screwdrivers were produced over a period of time. Its fair to assume different workers did them, and as tooling wore out, it was replaced with new. If the wear was apparent to the workers and inspectors, we'll also see that.

I've been a bad boy. Over time I'm inconsistent. I have some screwdrivers bagged off in tiny ziplocks (the kind drugs are furnished in by street corner pharmacists.) So I'd put them in with the guns that needed them. Other times, when I'd score one at an antique show or gunshow, or from a private seller here, I'd just dump it into a larger bag with similar ones. That resulted in me losing track of the sources.

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Dick Burg

Thanks rburg, looks like the one I wound up with is a repro. Aluminum handle and 9 rows of "knurling", with the grind of the tip in the direction of the handle. No complaints, as the seller said he didn't know if it was legit or not. Just a nice looking screw-turner!

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Rough waters ahead.

One of the easiest way to tell if a screwdriver is a reproduction is to look at the shank. If it does not have a dull, black oxide finish, it is most likely a reproduction. The repros are much more polished and blued.

Bill