M&P and Victory model

[Allen Bosely]

I am trying to learn a bit about the pre war M&P and the Victory models history and major variations.

I went through the FAQs and am going though old posts, but the info is coming kind of slow.

If there are some threads any one could point me to that would be great.

I want to get my wife a 4" K frame .38 Special and we are interested in the pre war long action ones.

So we have some questions that maybe some of you would be kind enough to help answer.

What are the differences between a Victory Model and a M&P?

In the basic time frame of late 20s to end of the war is there a difference in the heat treating if so about when was the change made.

Can a pre war M&P or Victory model take +P loads? If not at what mfg. date or model #
change can they take +P loads.

We like the old large style ejector rod knobs.But want to be able to use some +P loads.
Did the transition models have the large ejector rod knobs?

Sorry for so many questions. When it comes to early K frames I am starting from very little knowledge about them. But I'm trying to fix that.

Allen

[Allen Bosely]

I am trying to learn a bit about the pre war M&P and the Victory models history and major variations.

I went through the FAQs and am going though old posts, but the info is coming kind of slow.

If there are some threads any one could point me to that would be great.

I want to get my wife a 4" K frame .38 Special and we are interested in the pre war long action ones.

So we have some questions that maybe some of you would be kind enough to help answer.

What are the differences between a Victory Model and a M&P?

In the basic time frame of late 20s to end of the war is there a difference in the heat treating if so about when was the change made.

Can a pre war M&P or Victory model take +P loads? If not at what mfg. date or model #
change can they take +P loads.

We like the old large style ejector rod knobs.But want to be able to use some +P loads.
Did the transition models have the large ejector rod knobs?

Sorry for so many questions. When it comes to early K frames I am starting from very little knowledge about them. But I'm trying to fix that.

Allen

[digi-shots]

I'll help answer a few of your questions. They'll be more knowledgeable folks along soon to answer some more.

The "Victory" models are M&P (Military & Police) k-frame .38's. They were available in both .38 Special & .38 S&W cartridges. Many of our UK allies used the .38 S&W for their troops (shot the .38/200 cartridge). There were a little over 800,000 of these Victory .38 special & .38 S&W models made.

The Victory models were made specifically for WWII and will have both the letter "V" prefix in the serial number and have a lanyard ring/swivel installed on the butt of the gun. I've heard that the name "Victory" was for Victory against the Axis during WWII. In order to speed up production, final polishing steps were eliminated and they were finished with a matte "parkerized-type" finish.

Later during the War, a hammer safety block was added and the guns were serial numbered with a SV prefix.

Prior to WWII, the M&P had a numerical serial number without a letter prefix.

When WWII ended, this M&P model had the letter "S" prefix in the serial number.

The Victory models usually command a higher price for their value as a collectible WWII gun. They were used for both the US & Allied Military along with stateside Civl Defense personnel.

Hope this helps!

[digi-shots]

Allen,

Here are a couple of pics of WWII S&W's...

A .38 Special Victory issued to US NAVY:



And .38 S&W (.38/200) shipped to Union of South Africa. This is a "pre-Victory" .38 S&W. It has a blued finish and 6 digit serial number without the "V" prefix.

[Art Doc]

The V Models are simply M&Ps dressed for war.

At about serial 165,000 S&W started tempering cylinders. Anything earlier than that should get light loads, only.

There are wildly varying opinions on +P. Some say only very late guns specifically OKed by S&W. Others say any model-marked gun (starting in 1957) while others say any post-war gun is OK. So many opinions means nobody knows for sure.

Except me, apparently. I am sure that factory +P is not a hot load at all. It is a very mild load in my opinion not even as powerful as what was called standard ammo in the 1940s and 1950s.

Over the years the ammo companies have reduced the power levels on 38 Special ammo to avoid lawsuits when owners of cheap, imported guns blow themselves up. The +P was created as a means to sell something loaded beyond a gallery load but give them legal cover. As in "We told you not to use +P!"

Factory +P is generally a 125 grain bullet at about 925 FPS. This is a very mild load, well below industry standards for maximum chamber pressure and frankly I don't understand how so many people have become convinced that it is a hot load. It is not.

Having said that, I know that the tempering of metal was an imprecise science until around 1930 (give or take) and my personal policy is to stick with target loads in any gun made before 1930. I may be over-cautious.

Why does your wife want the older gun? Post war M&Ps and Model 10s are fine.

[Kamerer]

I believe the s/n given for when tempering became effective is 316,6xx - I recall reading this recently somewhere and mentally noted the number. I would use +p ammo on guns after that - as saxonpig has stated, the modern +p issue is really overblown.

If you do go after a victory, be cautious. Many more were made in .38 S&W than for the US IN .38 special. Conversions were common and not always well done. Many guns have been refinished and aren't worth premium prices.

The "large" ejector rod caps ended about 1930. They were still slightly proud of the rod itself until 46,when they became fully cylindrical and the barrel relief cut was deleted. Here is a visual comparison:

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2...g-k-frame.html

So there are a few transition models out there with the "intermediate" style ejector rod. The main appeal of the transitions is the coupling of the long action and the hammer block safety.

[Allen Bosely]

digi-shots, thanks for the pictures. They are staged great!

SaxonPig,
Actually it was partially me, I really like the long action style hammer.Plus we both like vintage stuff. So based on looks really.

But saying that, last night I found some pictures of the long and the short action and don't ya know she likes the short action hammer better! She thinks she may be able to reach the hammer spur a little easier on the short action model.Probably not a big deal really but since she likes the short action it does make it simpler to deal with +P since it will be a little later gun.

SP, nothing wrong at all with a later M&P or M10, basically it was just a looks thing and it being older.

Ok a question: is a M10 and a M&P the same thing or is there a difference? If different, what's different?

I think the plan is, we are going to look for an early style hammer M10 4" tapered barrel. The reason is the earlier M10s hammer was styled slightly more like the pre wars and should be less concern about +P ammo.

Kamerer & Doug, thanks for the links.

Another question, what is the model designations between the round but and square?
There's the 1902 & 1905 or something? Still trying to figure this one out.

I think she likes the Round butt 4" tapered barrel with the older style hammer spur.Is there a model and dash # or serial # range we should be looking at?

Thanks for all the help guys. It sure is nice to have a wife who wants a gun but wants a particular gun and style of gun. And wants to learn to shoot "Her Gun" well.
So I want to get her the gun that really tickles her fancy!

Allen

[digi-shots]

Allen,

The model 10 is an M&P and comes in various barrel lengths..

Here's a 2" snub nose:



And a 4" barrel: