Early Hand Ejector Target Sight Tutorial

handejector · Dec 17, 2008

I figure many of you who have not had a chance to handle an early Target gun might want to know more about the sight.
We are talking about the first variety that started on the 1899's and continued on into the early Post-WW I period. They have a slightly different contour on the earliest models, but they have the same design-

These early sights have an elevation screw that is threaded into the frame, but NOT attached to the sight-

This elevation screw is split to provide some tension in the frame so it does not move when shooting-

The rear sight leaf is domed where this screw contacts it-

The blade is movable for windage by two pointed, opposing screws. Keep them SNUG, or the blade can fall out!

CAUTION- these early sights are secured by NOTHING but the tiny screw at the front of the leaf. Be careful when carrying the old guns!
They can be broken entirely off the gun. That is what happened here- note how it bent the tiny screw, and folded the slot closed-

handejector · Dec 17, 2008

duplicate post deleted

mxbob · Dec 17, 2008

Thanks Lee. I have never had to take one off but now I feel I can do it if I have to.
Bob Ray

Raider · Dec 17, 2008

Great info. Many thanks.

Memphis · Dec 17, 2008

Thanks Lee for that EXCELLENT tutorial. I highly value every tidbit of info you offer. You're kinda like E F Hutton, when you speak, I listen. Not to mention that uncanny resembelance to a certain Colonel that will go nameless

Thanks.

Also, I have two 1905 4th targets, one early (1917ish) and one later, in the 30's. The early one has two small screws on the rear of the rear sight but the later one has only one. I couldn't find a reference in the Neal and Jinks book. Was that just an engineering change of evolution in that series?

Roger

Nicksterdemus · Dec 17, 2008

Thanks for taking your time in providing the detailed presentation.

keppelj · Dec 17, 2008

Another voice of gratitude here. I have a couple of these guns and have been scared to death to touch those tiny screws - made to look so big in your magnifications. Now I know what I'm in for if I have to. Nicely done tutorial and should go into the FAQs.

mikepriwer · Dec 17, 2008

Lee

What is the approximate year of this gun, and/or the serial number ?
I can add a couple of comments, once I know what vintage you have.

Regards, Mike Priwer

handejector · Dec 17, 2008

mikepriwer said:
Lee

What is the approximate year of this gun, and/or the serial number ?
I can add a couple of comments, once I know what vintage you have.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike,
32 HE Target, 1903- 5th change, Ser # 209766. Manu 1910-1917.

Joni_Lynn · Dec 17, 2008

Thank you, I've never taken one of those apart to see that before.

R-Tex · Dec 17, 2008

Thanks, Lee -

VERY timely!

handejector · Dec 17, 2008

R-Tex said:
Thanks, Lee -

VERY timely!

Planned it a long time ago. Had it apart for pics. Suddenly came under pressure to "git 'er dun!"

mikepriwer · Dec 17, 2008

Lee

The earliest K-frame, from 1899 through maybe 1905 or so, had a different
rear-sigt blade. The blade itself was much thinner than this example, and
the bottom is a bead, instead of those two angles corners. The rear sight
base itself was different, as well. In your later example, the blade does not
slide through, from one side to the other, but rather lifts out. In the
early rear sights, the rear base has a thin cut, and then a hole that traverses
from one side to the other. The blade does not lift out, but rather slides all
the way through, from one side to the other. Like this sight, there are two
small screws, but they are flat on the ends, instead of being pointed.

Another difference is that, on these very early bead-based blades, the blade
itself is numbered to the gun. Typically its the last three digits of the
serial number, but sometimes its the last three digits of the assembly number.

A final difference is that these very early target front sight blades were
typically either a Paine bead, or a knife-like blade. Both of these are very
thin, with the result that the notch in the rear sight blade is also very very
tiny. The introduction of the Patridge front sight blade, which is a much wider
blade than the Paine or knive-edge, required a much wider rear sight notch.

Regards, Mike Priwer

opoefc · Dec 17, 2008

Lee, Somebody once said that when you get too old to cut the mustard, you write Tutorials. Is that true? -- -- Another little tutorial tidbit here is to look at the picture of the rear sight upside down. See that serial number? That tells you the gun left the factory as a Target model and was not sent back later for addition of target sights. therefore the gun will letter as an original target model. Original production target models needed that number on the sight bottem to get the same sight back on the gun that it was first fitted to after the gun was taken apart for bluing, as the slot on the frame top strap was milled to fit that particular rear sight. Later addition of the target sights on a service model gun was a "one off' job done in the service dep't and since only one gun was involved there was no need to number the rear sight.

handejector · Dec 17, 2008

Mike,
Of course you are correct, and I was not very clear about what is similar. I should have clearly stated that the elevation screw is the same from the 1899 Models forward to the early Post WW I period, like this gun shown.
I had pics of an 1899 sight, disassembled, that I took last year, planning this tutorial. I somehow lost them- I suppose I deleted them in a pic-purge after a series of auctions!
So, instead of getting into the blades, I thought I would just stick to the elevation differences.
Excellent verbal explanation you gave- just about makes pics unnecessary.

handejector · Dec 17, 2008

opoefc said:
Lee, Somebody once said that when you get too old to cut the mustard, you write Tutorials. Is that true? -- -- Another little tutorial tidbit here is to look at the picture of the rear sight upside down. See that serial number? That tells you the gun left the factory as a Target model and was not sent back later for addition of target sights. therefore the gun will letter as an original target model. Original production target models needed that number on the sight bottem to get the same sight back on the gun that it was first fitted to after the gun was taken apart for bluing, as the slot on the frame top strap was milled to fit that particular rear sight. Later addition of the target sights on a service model gun was a "one off' job done in the service dep't and since only one gun was involved there was no need to number the rear sight.

Well, can I change the title to "LESSON"??

Speaking from experience??

Meant to mention the numbers, but got in a rush and forgot.
Actually, the slots are cut to spec- they are the same width, and the leafs are not fitted to a slot- they drop in. They are, however, POLISHED to match the frame contour perfectly, hence the number to rematch them.
I have never seen a sight that was not numbered that I recall, but I have heard you talk about early 44's sent back for sights.
Interestingly, I talked to a man who has a 1917 with Target sights yesterday. It had a frame date in 1923, I believe. He sent Roy good pics, and Roy gave the opinion that it had been returned on that date for the sights. The date had the month, day, and year. The sight is numbered to the gun.

handejector · Dec 17, 2008

Memphis said:
Thanks Lee for that EXCELLENT tutorial. I highly value every tidbit of info you offer. You're kinda like E F Hutton, when you speak, I listen. Not to mention that uncanny resembelance to a certain Colonel that will go nameless Thanks.

Also, I have two 1905 4th targets, one early (1917ish) and one later, in the 30's. The early one has two small screws on the rear of the rear sight but the later one has only one. I couldn't find a reference in the Neal and Jinks book. Was that just an engineering change of evolution in that series?

Roger

Roger,
Do you have that backwards??
The two screw sight is the last pre-war variety before the micro-click.

j38 · Dec 17, 2008

School is definitely in session! Thank you all very much!

Jerry

opoefc · Dec 17, 2008

Lee, Like all things S&W, there's never a hard and fast rule that will apply to every situation, and 1917 targets are one of those exceptions to the nor. As we know, there are no original 1917 Target models, all 1917s with target sights, adjustable or fixed, have been added after the gun was first shipped, and often those I've examined have a numbered rear target sight, contrary to the usual rule. -- Call 'em Tutorials, Lesson, or whatever - I think it's great that on this Forum, old timers like you can come up with threads that provide info. for collectors that they will find no where else. Keep it up, even after they come to take away your crayons!

mikepriwer · Dec 17, 2008

opoefc said:
As we know, there are no original 1917 Target models

Ed

Here are two that I owned, a few years ago :

0294 6.5 Bl S SM 1917 6.5" 0 trgt 180515 C.F.Armstrong (?)
180042 5.5 Bl S SM 1917 5.5" trgt 260927 F.T.Budge Co, Miami

The both letter as 1917's shipped with target sights.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Early Hand Ejector Target Sight Tutorial

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