|
|
05-06-2010, 11:46 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Backwoods Louisiana
Posts: 763
Likes: 210
Liked 285 Times in 113 Posts
|
|
4 inch Colt Official Police outperforms 6 inch S&W Highway Patrolman
Okay. I have one of 23471 - Birchwood Casey Double Mag Spinner Target, Handguns up to .44 Magnum set up.
I stood on my deck about 50 feet away shooting:
in single action a Smith & Wesson Highway Patrolman with adjustable sights and target grips and fat target trigger in two hands and a 6 inch barrel 158 gr .357 magnums and usually dancing in front or behind the target but only hitting it once or twice.
in single action a 4 inch Colt Official Police with fixed sights and service grips and standard trigger in one hand dueling stance and occasionally one two hand isoceles shooting 158 gr LRN pinging the target pretty consistantly.
That either says a heck of a lot for Colt or there is something wrong with my Highway Patrolman
Last edited by Doug.38PR; 05-06-2010 at 11:49 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
05-07-2010, 12:22 AM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Wasilla ALASKA
Posts: 1,326
Likes: 2,305
Liked 259 Times in 154 Posts
|
|
Highway Patrolman
I feel your pain and I will offer you, sight unseen mind you, $100 for your offending S&W Hope that is some "help" for you. Kyle
|
05-07-2010, 12:29 AM
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 26,294
Likes: 1,103
Liked 19,370 Times in 9,448 Posts
|
|
Did you try the .38 loads in the model 28? Seems that would have been a more fair comparison.
__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
05-07-2010, 12:37 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Backwoods Louisiana
Posts: 763
Likes: 210
Liked 285 Times in 113 Posts
|
|
well with the bullet weight being equal I would have thought they would be the same even if one is higher powered than the other.
Alaskavet...no I am not through with my Highway Patrolman. I love it, not as much as my Official Police...but I enjoy the feel and punch it packs when firing it. I think it can be adjusted somehow, the sights must be off.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
05-07-2010, 12:42 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 12,994
Likes: 5,030
Liked 7,723 Times in 2,634 Posts
|
|
Those pesky adjustable sights will get you every time.
I would recenter the rear blade both side to side and for height. Then maybe I'd use a beanbag rest on your deck railing or a small table or something like that. Shoot a paper plate, too, just to see how closely the rounds print around your aiming point.
Fixed sight guns can be accurate, but they shouldn't beat a target-sighted revolver like that.
How do you feel about the trigger shoe? Does that seem to help your release or get in the way of it?
__________________
David Wilson
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
05-07-2010, 02:13 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Backwoods Louisiana
Posts: 763
Likes: 210
Liked 285 Times in 113 Posts
|
|
it isn't a trigger shoe, it's a wide target trigger. It feels good on my finger. I like it.
So much do I like this 6 inch Highway Patrolman, I wish there was a way I could carry it as a CCW without feeling absurd like Dirty Harry lugging a big cannon in a shoulder holster
|
05-07-2010, 02:24 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal/native Montanan
Posts: 561
Likes: 1,457
Liked 490 Times in 242 Posts
|
|
If the HP is hitting all over the place and the colt is hitting where you aim, maybe the sights are loose on the HP... or maybe you need to try some different ammo in it? Sounds like you were using one load-not so uncommon for some loads to shoot ****** from some guns.
|
05-07-2010, 02:28 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
|
|
It could be the difference in barrel length changes the balance of the two pistols. My 4" M10 balances perfectly, but by friend's 6" M66 feels nose heavy to me and as a result I have a hard time keeping a steady sight picture. Could just be because I'm not used to shooting it.
|
05-07-2010, 05:59 AM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Western NC
Posts: 3,689
Likes: 3,029
Liked 6,682 Times in 1,863 Posts
|
|
It's a poor workman who blames his tools
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
05-07-2010, 06:04 AM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Far Southwest Virginia
Posts: 1,628
Likes: 512
Liked 3,872 Times in 480 Posts
|
|
Check the tightness of the grip screw. I had a very accurate Model 14 with target grips that would shoot great until the grip screw loosened, then the accurary went all to ****....
The revolver jumps around inside the target grips, causing very inconsisitent shooting.
|
05-07-2010, 08:24 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DUNNELLON, FLORIDA USA
Posts: 11,170
Likes: 1,695
Liked 16,447 Times in 4,283 Posts
|
|
Good Morning:
Perhaps the Colt is a BETTER revolver!!
(I am now slapping myself for that remark)
Jimmy
|
05-07-2010, 08:50 AM
|
|
SWCA Member Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The kidney of Dixie.
Posts: 10,446
Likes: 49
Liked 13,416 Times in 3,292 Posts
|
|
Your test was anecdotal at best, but some guns feel better in an individual hand than do others and we tend to shoot them a bit better.
At the risk of offending the S&W gods I would note that the older Colts used a tapering bore that ran a tad tighter than did the S&W barrels. These barrels were made for the lead bullets that were the order of the day 30+ years ago and generally speaking the Colts shot better than the Smiths. Look at any old photo of a "bullseye" match and notice all the Colts on the firing line with nary a S&W in sight.
__________________
No life story has happy end.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
05-07-2010, 09:49 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Rocky Mtns of Colorado
Posts: 252
Likes: 4
Liked 22 Times in 11 Posts
|
|
[QUOTE=SaxonPig;135465590]Your test was anecdotal at best, but some guns feel better in an individual hand than do others and we tend to shoot them a bit better.
I have to agree...I have owned 8 or 10 COLT double action revolvers, Cobra, couple of DS, Pythons, and several Police Specials....I want to love them, but Colt Double action pistols do not fit my hands..****gers are a better fit, but S&W fits perfectly...so I don't own any COLTS, just sold my last Ruger and I am trying to cornor the market on S&Ws....OK not cornor the market, but I am trying to "Expand" my "Collection"
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
05-07-2010, 10:56 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 2,537
Likes: 882
Liked 1,719 Times in 549 Posts
|
|
Two points:
1) You are shooting 357 Magnum ammunition in one gun and 38 Special ammunition in the other. Big difference.
2)See number one above. Most people shoot 38s better than 357s because of the recoil and an almost involuntary flinch or trigger jerk. It takes time and practice to overcome that and shoot Magnums well.
Dave
__________________
RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)
|
05-07-2010, 11:21 AM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,951
Likes: 1,061
Liked 775 Times in 375 Posts
|
|
I agree with the post above. An awful lot of guys can't/won't admit that the recoil from even the .357 is too much for them to shoot comfortably, especially if they have been practicing a lot more with less expensive .38 practice ammo. I guess they feel that it makes them less "manly" or something to admit it, especially publicly on a forum where everyone posts pictures of bigger guns yet. A lot of the guys who post pics of .44's also note in their posts that they normally shoot specials or special equivelent loads from those same .44's. The concussion from the .357 is distracting, and the .357 is well know for it's sharpness/loudness, and that certainly can cause one to flinch even with proper hearing protection on.
All that said, some guns just shoot better than others, and some just seem to shoot better than other for a given individual since they fit them better.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
05-07-2010, 11:50 AM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,262
Likes: 1
Liked 8,934 Times in 1,542 Posts
|
|
Another possibility
I think the problem is with the target....
Some of these targets have good eyesight and can tell if they are being shot at by a high quality gun or not. In the case of the Colt, the target was probably not concerned about it so sat still, giving the Colt a fair opportunity to tag it from time to time.
I'm absolutely sure that when it saw the Highway Patrolman come out of the bag, it started jumping side to side (can be very subtle to the shooter) just at the time the trigger was pulled.
These things can be very wiley about such things....
Or, maybe it's the difference in ammo as suggested above.
I'd tend to think it's my explanation that is correct, but then again I'm biased.
__________________
.............SmithNut
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
05-07-2010, 12:00 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CSRA
Posts: 2,125
Likes: 869
Liked 1,629 Times in 779 Posts
|
|
si-------------------
Last edited by sw282; 07-03-2011 at 02:36 AM.
|
05-07-2010, 12:37 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: WV
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 556
Liked 4,663 Times in 1,055 Posts
|
|
How the respective grips fit your hand, the mechanics of the trigger squeeze per the grip and your anatomy, and the anticipation of the magnum recoil can all affect the results.
I found in my brief and frustrating foray into Bullseye competition that the fit of the grip to my hand and the positioning of my finger in relation to the trigger pull mechanics on certain guns caused grouping in specific places. "Heeling" the gun in anticipation of recoil produces a like result.
Or, as I was told, " it's probably the loose nut behind the grips".
|
05-07-2010, 01:08 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Fort Knox, Kentucky
Posts: 1,456
Likes: 5,798
Liked 3,681 Times in 1,017 Posts
|
|
Annoying guns!
I have an absolutely gorgeous S&W Model 1955 Target that with lovingly crafted match grade wadcutters will not keep a group on a No. #3 washtub at 50 yards. Despite having been back to the factory, it is still a disappointment.
My best friend has a 1937 Brazilian Navy contract Model 1917 Smith that looks like it spent half its life in the bilge of a submarine. Shooting his revolver with an odd lot mix of leftover GI hardball, I repeatedly hit his mailbox at 80 meters. (Boy, did we ever catch hell from his wife over that!)
It wouldn't be so annoying if the damn Model 25 wasn't such a nice looking gun. (and he wouldn't trade either.)
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
05-07-2010, 01:46 PM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Wasilla ALASKA
Posts: 1,326
Likes: 2,305
Liked 259 Times in 154 Posts
|
|
Got it. So you feel the need to sell me the Colt for $100 that way your S&W will always out shoot the "missing" Colt Kyle
|
05-07-2010, 02:07 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,951
Likes: 1,061
Liked 775 Times in 375 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by old tanker
I have an absolutely gorgeous S&W Model 1955 Target that with lovingly crafted match grade wadcutters will not keep a group on a No. #3 washtub at 50 yards. Despite having been back to the factory, it is still a disappointment.
My best friend has a 1937 Brazilian Navy contract Model 1917 Smith that looks like it spent half its life in the bilge of a submarine. Shooting his revolver with an odd lot mix of leftover GI hardball, I repeatedly hit his mailbox at 80 meters. (Boy, did we ever catch hell from his wife over that!)
It wouldn't be so annoying if the damn Model 25 wasn't such a nice looking gun. (and he wouldn't trade either.)
|
Check the throats in your gun. I'd bet good money that they are in the neighborhood of .456"- .458". A lot of 25-2's and 25-5's are plagued with oversized throats, but they can be made to shoot with the right bullets.
Buying cast bullets that are sized to as close as possible to your guns throats, or the soft swaged factory bullets made by Remington and Winchester should help tremendously. They are .455" and .456" respectively, with shallow hollow bases that obturate and fit the throats to aid in accuracy. Just seat as normal and go to town.
|
05-08-2010, 12:14 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Backwoods Louisiana
Posts: 763
Likes: 210
Liked 285 Times in 113 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave T
Two points:
1) You are shooting 357 Magnum ammunition in one gun and 38 Special ammunition in the other. Big difference.
2)See number one above. Most people shoot 38s better than 357s because of the recoil and an almost involuntary flinch or trigger jerk. It takes time and practice to overcome that and shoot Magnums well.
Dave
|
Actually I like shooting the magnums. I don't flinch over them, I can feel the energy when the go off compared to the .38 spl certainly. But I don't flinch. And with that heavy N frame gun with a 6 inch barrel and target grips...there isn't a whole lot of recoil
|
05-08-2010, 12:21 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Backwoods Louisiana
Posts: 763
Likes: 210
Liked 285 Times in 113 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaxonPig
Your test was anecdotal at best, but some guns feel better in an individual hand than do others and we tend to shoot them a bit better.
At the risk of offending the S&W gods I would note that the older Colts used a tapering bore that ran a tad tighter than did the S&W barrels. These barrels were made for the lead bullets that were the order of the day 30+ years ago and generally speaking the Colts shot better than the Smiths. Look at any old photo of a "bullseye" match and notice all the Colts on the firing line with nary a S&W in sight.
|
As far as being comfortable, the large target grips of the Highway Patrolman feel more "snug" in my large hands than the service grips of my Official Police.
I know this isn't a perfect test by any stretch of the imagination. Getting out on a deck downhill shooting 50 ft away on and offhand with two different guns isn't the most professional setting.
In regard to the bullet used in the magnum, they were 158 gr semi-jacketed soft nose bullets
I am almost scared to ask this, but 5 years ago my highway patrolman was shaving semi-jacket off the side of bullets and binding against the force cone right after I bought it used. A gunsmith fixed it. He also widened the force cone a little to give the gun more accuracy, said I'd be ablet to shoot groupings the size of a quarter. Back then after testing the gun it seemed to be okay, didn't notice a huge difference, but then I figured I would improve over time. Haven't had much of a chance to actually sit down and rest the gun on anything.
Anyway, could this gunsmith's widening the force cone have done irreversable damage to the gun?
|
05-08-2010, 01:11 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Florida,South,hell.
Posts: 2,642
Likes: 143
Liked 2,507 Times in 368 Posts
|
|
Carrying a model 28 Highway Patrolman. Hmmm what a novel idea,,,,
a 3 1/2 inch barrel ,shoots like a house afire.
Maybe you need a set of Lasergrips??
I don't flinch when I shoot magnums either.
But I shoot a helluva lot of 38 specials.
Allen Frame
__________________
NRA cert.instructor&R.S.O.
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
05-08-2010, 01:42 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 12,994
Likes: 5,030
Liked 7,723 Times in 2,634 Posts
|
|
Allen, that looks like a true "kit" gun that you couldn't finish building because a couple of parts were missing from the package!
Just kidding. I liked that gun the first time you gave a full report on your project, and I'm happy to see it again. Thumbs up.
__________________
David Wilson
|
05-08-2010, 02:31 AM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: upstate, ny
Posts: 165
Likes: 1
Liked 5 Times in 2 Posts
|
|
my 28-2 with a 6" barrel shoots factory loads (.38 special winchester super x 158 grain) a little high and about 3 inches left at 50 ft. but if i shoot my own 158 grain wad cutters made from melted wheel weights and loaded with 2400 powder. they are dead on. i can hardly beleive it but it is true. only thing is, it smokes alot for some reason.
|
05-08-2010, 02:57 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Backwoods Louisiana
Posts: 763
Likes: 210
Liked 285 Times in 113 Posts
|
|
^
that IS strange.
|
05-08-2010, 07:20 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sante Fe Trail, Kansas
Posts: 5,350
Likes: 14,441
Liked 6,562 Times in 2,597 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmithNut
I think the problem is with the target....
Some of these targets have good eyesight and can tell if they are being shot at by a high quality gun or not. In the case of the Colt, the target was probably not concerned about it so sat still, giving the Colt a fair opportunity to tag it from time to time.
I'm absolutely sure that when it saw the Highway Patrolman come out of the bag, it started jumping side to side (can be very subtle to the shooter) just at the time the trigger was pulled.
These things can be very wiley about such things....
r, maybe it's the difference in ammo as suggested above.
I'd tend to think it's my explanation that is correct, but then again I'm biased.
|
Your excellent theory activated a loose link in my chuckle box which had to call in back up in the form of a belly laugh. Keep thinking out side the box.
|
05-09-2010, 12:19 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Backwoods Louisiana
Posts: 763
Likes: 210
Liked 285 Times in 113 Posts
|
|
and here it is
notice the widened force cone
|
05-10-2010, 09:48 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Northeastern Illinois USA
Posts: 171
Likes: 2
Liked 79 Times in 29 Posts
|
|
I have both of these guns mentioned here, an HP I got new back in '74, and an OP I bought to mirror my wife's birth year (her father carried one in the CPD), and I'll be danged-
You can fire these things single-action? Like a cowboy hogleg?
Gonna have to try that someday.
|
05-10-2010, 11:45 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Backwoods Louisiana
Posts: 763
Likes: 210
Liked 285 Times in 113 Posts
|
|
You sure can fire them SA....and I'll tell you what, I loaded mine with Remington UMC 125 GR SJHP tonight. I had the adjustable sights screwed all the way down onto the top standing about 25 ft back from the target and was hitting below the bullseye. I gradually brought the sights up little by little and finally...I was created two 3 shot triangle holes each the size of a quarter in the bullseye....I was amazed...but then it was SA and squatting with the gun supported by my knee only 25 ft back
|
05-11-2010, 02:45 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Backwoods Louisiana
Posts: 763
Likes: 210
Liked 285 Times in 113 Posts
|
|
MUCH BETTER! I just tried it again from 50 ft away on the spinning thing. Pinged it 3 or 4 times out of 6 instead of 0
|
05-13-2010, 05:57 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SW Montana
Posts: 626
Likes: 495
Liked 194 Times in 143 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj
Good Morning:
Perhaps the Colt is a BETTER revolver!!
(I am now slapping myself for that remark)
Jimmy
|
Yup, saw it right off!
__________________
US RIDE FOR THE BRAND OR LEAVE
|
02-27-2014, 12:11 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: far N.E. ohio
Posts: 15
Likes: 10
Liked 8 Times in 5 Posts
|
|
28-2.jpg 28's are still beautiful
|
02-27-2014, 04:21 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rancho Cordova, CA
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 1,078
Liked 778 Times in 411 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj
Perhaps the Colt is a BETTER revolver!!
(I am now slapping myself for that remark)
|
No need to slap yourself Jimmy, the older Colts were excellent pieces of gear, comparable to S&W in quality, fit, and finish. They went downhill in the 70's due to Colt's neglect. That's the real shame.
__________________
"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
02-27-2014, 04:36 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Baton Rouge, La.
Posts: 6,957
Likes: 7,651
Liked 8,266 Times in 3,739 Posts
|
|
As your little test indicates the 38 special still has a lot going for it. I have a S&W model 64 , 4 in bbl , fixed sights , in 38 special that is hands down my favorite shooter. I think being chambered for 38 special does not hurt accuracy. I know ,in theory, shooting 38's in a 357 chamber should not be less accurate...but I'm not going to trade the model 64 in on a magnum any time soon...I'm just not 100% convinced of that theory.
Gary
|
02-27-2014, 04:48 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 11,986
Likes: 10,298
Liked 10,300 Times in 4,888 Posts
|
|
Well, here we are close to four years later and I am wondering if old Doug still can't shoot his Highway Patrolman... ?
I am sympathetic though. I have never been able to shoot a Colt revolver worth a hoot, and I have tried off and on for a lot longer than 4-years.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
02-27-2014, 05:28 PM
|
Banned
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 12,511
Likes: 21,054
Liked 32,463 Times in 7,773 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug.38PR
That either says a heck of a lot for Colt or there is something wrong with my Highway Patrolman
|
Uh-h-h...maybe you just shoot better with the Colt than you do with the 28? It works that way sometimes, you know. One gun just suits a shooter better than another.
|
02-27-2014, 05:53 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,798
Likes: 3,567
Liked 6,825 Times in 2,658 Posts
|
|
I suppose I will point out the obvious - the "test" was hardly a test where the only variable was the revolver.
A real test to determine which revolver performs best would use a machine rest, the same ammo, and would factor out the "human" element entirely.
Get back to us when you have shot several groups with both revolvers under those circumstances. Otherwise, it is, as SaxonPig pointed out, anecdotal at best, and the test says more about you than either revolver. It may boil down to the fact that the Colt "feels better" in your hand. If that is so, it is nothing to be ashamed of. Colt made excellent double action revolvers.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
02-27-2014, 07:29 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Coastal NC
Posts: 2,915
Likes: 2,355
Liked 4,677 Times in 1,603 Posts
|
|
As a wise old man once told me:
"It's not the arrow - it's the Indian."
__________________
Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275
|
02-27-2014, 09:06 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,666
Likes: 3,512
Liked 1,580 Times in 913 Posts
|
|
Colt DA revolvers did tend to be amazingly accurate.
There's a lot to be said for the bank vault lockup.
Not that I have any complaints about my Smiths.
They're all capable of more accuracy than I am.
I'm a lifelong Colt fan, but I luvz my Smiffs.
My 15-3 gives me the warm and fuzzies.
__________________
What would Jim Cirillo do?
|
02-27-2014, 11:24 PM
|
Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 13,869
Likes: 2,079
Liked 13,354 Times in 5,549 Posts
|
|
My 6" python when I had pin point accuracy at 100 yds with my 140gr Speer 357mag reloads. As soon as the weather breaks I'll try my m27 & m28 with the same reloads I have some still.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
|
Tags
|
357 magnum, 44 magnum, bullseye, ccw, colt, gunsmith, highway patrolman, m66, model 10, model 14, model 1917, model 25, model 28, patrolman, remington, s&w, umc, winchester |
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
|