When the NYPD still had revolvers in wide spread service, they used an unusual open top holster. I was wondering if any of the NYPD guys on here had any comments on this rig and if anyone has any pictures of NYPD revolver leather worn by members of service?

Hi:

Members of the service in the NYPD had to purchase their own gear (we bought it from the Equipment Section located at 1 Police Plaza when I was in the dept). Our leather gear was an open top design that had been in use for many years. The manufacturer that I recall is "J-Pee." My old service holster is in the basement at the moment but I'm too lazy to get it and take a picture at the moment.

The design was simplicity itself. The handgun was pushed in from the top. A piece of extra leather was sewn inside the holster and that piece of leather was the "safety" that caught on the rim of the revolver's cylinder. When the user pushed their thumb into the holster that pushed the leather safety away permitting the user to pull out the revolver.

Sounds pretty weird. It was an inexpensive design but, remarkably, we had virtually no problem with snatched revolvers from our holsters!

Rich

Forgive this really poor photos.

As you can see it's a pretty basic design. Just drop your revolver in her and she's good to go! The design did require a good deal of breaking in!


Your thumb pushes against the strip of leather inside the holster.


On the "newer" versions they had the manufacturer place a metal "U" riveted in place. This was due to an officer almost having his handgun ripped from his holster by an assailant. I believe the newer holsters also were sewn with nylon thread and not cotton thread (which would eventually rot and cause the holster pieces to separate).

Yes, I remember them well growing up in Queens late 60s and early seventies...... awkward looking holsters and always swiveled back and forth.....

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QM3

I loved mine. You could get a non-swivel model if you wanted, but the swivel was so nice when you sat in a radio car. Some guys will tell you that the swivel could breake and the holster seprate from the belt, but I never saw it or even heard of it.

Thanks fellas, I was always curious what you guys thought of that holster. It looks like you wore it on a standard garrison belt with two speedloaders, was that correct? Would that holster fit both the Model 10 and the Colt Official Police? Thanks again for the pictures and replies.

Our equipment was pretty low quality in my opinion. Guys would wear there gear for 20 years, never replacing anything, and by that time the stuff was falling apart.

By the way, until the late 1980s we carried extra rounds in two dump pouches. Think about it, a cop back then had a six round revolver, plus twelve extra rounds on him. Today, a Glock 17 shooter carries nearly 50 rounds of ammo on them between the rounds in the gun and the two extra magazines!

Rich

I worked with an officer that sometimes used his father's NYPD holster.
He drew by grasping the Model 10 grip and pulling outward and up.

That was a great description and photo from the former NYPD officer. I was totally unaware the revolver had some type of "hold" to keep it secure. That makes my issued holster even more unsafe. It was on a swivel with a leather cover flap. Nothing inside for security. Just a plain open drop-in holster. But like RichCapeCod stated, it was pretty low quality, but at the time we liked them. I actually hated to turn it in for the new (LAPD) breakway holster design. It sucked. IIRC, you had to push downward on your gun, then hard forward for the slotted front to open.

Until 1986, when they finally let cops carry the speedloaders that they had been screaming for (and many cop carried anyway, against the rules). Speedloaders were seen as "too aggressive" by the rabble rousers like Al Sharpton. In 1986, three year veteran Scott Gadell was shot point blank by a suspect with a 9MM. They were involved in a shootout and Gadell had emptied his gun. He was crouched behind a dumpster fumbling to reload his revolver one round at a time (imagine the shaking hands dropping rounds as he fumbled to get them in the gun?). The perp walked right up and shot him in the head.

Funny how police agencies put their officers' safety behind political correctness? Look at Amadou Diallo, the man shot at 41 times (19 hits) by cops when he reached for a wallet in a dark hallway. We carried 115 grain full metal jacketed ammo (target range stuff). Housing and Transit already had hollow points since they worked in an environment filled with concrete, making ricochets more likely. The rounds that were fired at Diallo went through him, doing very little damage, hit the concrete behind him, and zipped BACK at the officers, blowing out the windows of the car they were covering behind. Only two rounds of the 19 that hit him were fatal, but neither instant stoppers. One nicked his aorta. Right after that, we got hollowpoints.

And now that most PD's carry .40 and up,the NYPD is still shooting the 9MM, with no plans to upgrade

In all the years I worked, our agency went through many different thoughts on holsters and the safety factor.

In the 80's we were given the choice of a safety retention style holster (Bianchi or Smith&Wesson) or keeping our Model 99 thumbreak Border Patrol style. I hated the retention holsters, ugly and hard to draw quickly from. To much aggressive movment if you were in a situation such as a vehicle stop. I kept my trusty border patrol style, as did many others.

We were allowed speed loaders in 1980. Many of us kept our belt slides and just added the carriers for the speed loaders.

Working very rural areas, your back up could be 15-30 minutes away...or more.

Only once did a subject try to grab my sidearm. After a couple of elbow smashes to his face, he lost all interest.

Domestic calls are the most dangerous of all.

Attached Images

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Take your time..quickly.

why upgrade? The 9mmP is more potent than it's looks would suggest. If JHPs are used it is a quite effective manstopper.

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QM3

The service revolver holster saw about a century of use, in a few different incarnations. It was inspired by the Audley Folsom designs and could be had from any one of a half dozen makers from the 1940's forward. Jay-Pee, Greenblatt, Service Manufacturing and many others offered them with different features. River straps, trigger guard spring loaded releases, reinforced mouthbands, swivels, no swivel like the one below. Flap holsters of the same basic style were used by ESU (Emergency Service) the Marine Unit and Mounted Unit. The Audley Folsom service holsters were used all over the U.S., and the NYPD and NYSP used them as well.
NYPD Type

NYSP Type


And here's a few very vintage Audley's.


Cheers;
Lefty

I carry a 9MM myself, but the reason the job won't upgrade isn't because the 9MM is adequate. They bow down to political pressure, even if it places officers in danger. We were the last major PD (and probably minor one, too) to retire our .38's, and when they did give us the 9MM they only issued 10 round mags. When the next mayor and PC came along (6 months after we got the 9MM), they issued the 15 round mags.

Good info on the NYPD holsters. No offense intended, but always thought they could win "The Most Ugly Award".

When I started, my department had been using the Border Patrol style for years. When cared for, they can look really sharp.
For some strange reason there were always guys that wanted to 'lean' on the grip frame in that design. Always looked bad doing it too.

About '82 (after several gun-snatching attempts) we went to an early Gould & Goodrich security holster that was only available in clarino finish. That was followed by all the rest of the belt and gear going clarino.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

Well I must agree they would never win any beauty contest. But the design is a sound one. It protected the service weapon from the weather pretty well, especially the flap models. During inclement weather, the coat, raincoat or blouse covered the grip frame, which typically suffered the lionshare of abuse. It seats the weapon deeply and it stayed in the holster when you had to give chase on foot or mix it up with the mutts. We still get orders for them. Yeah, there's nothing elegant about them, but they worked....for 100+ years. As for Clarino.....well I won't even touch that one!

Cheers;
Lefty

As a rookie in NYC, I would continually try to break in that holster. Holding the bottom of the holster with non shooting hand, twisting it to loosen it up as I worked my thumb down the inside of the holster. After a while...actually many months, it would soften up to the point where I was actually able to remove my model 10 from the holster fairly quickly.

The real challenge was any foot chase...the swivel would flop around while running.

Here's the swivel/flap holster I was issued in 1972. That belt was about a size 50 for my 32" waist. I hated that uncomfortable and unsafe shoulder belt?

Yeah, the swivel flopped when you chased smeone, but how often was that? I liked the swivel because when you sat in a radio car, you you move the holster to a more comfortable position (when i was the recorder, that was on top of my leg. Easy to get to).

I would like to maqke a couple of points which I am sure you are going to take issue with.

I was taught the term "New York Reload" came from carrying a second revolver and this practice was actually encouraged by the department. I don't know the circumstances of Officer Gadell's death it appears from your post that he was not carrying a second gun.

Shooting at a suspect 41 times with only 2 lethal hits is poor marksmanship. I don't care how you want to spin it no caliber or bullet style is going to make up for lousy marksmanship. Nor do I believe it is fair to cast all the blame on the department. Every officer has the opportunity to practice shooting when they are off duty.

There have been many cases where a suspect was hit with multiple unsurvivable shots and lived for minutes to do more harm. This is not exactly the topic at hand.
The holster I saw a lot of in NYS (NOT New York City) was the basketweave thumb break Bucheimer holster with the two dump poushes. I spent my childhood next door to our town's only full-time cop, and he told me this was the same for every officer he knew.

Great thread.

Lefty, have you ever thought about a holster book?

Dave Williams

The NY reload was encouraged, but some cops didn't carry two guns. Some cops couldn't afford the second gun. Even if he had it, he'd ben fumbling to load that second gun 3 seconds later then if he only had one. The issue that caused his death wasn't lack of ammunition, but speed of reloading. his revolver was found next to him, cylinder open, and one or two rounds in the cylinder, with the rest of the loose rounds spilled onto the floor.

As for the poor marksmanship, they hit him 19 times out of 41, nearly 50%. Two rounds proved fatal. While we are all entitled to our opinion, one educated opinion is worth more than 1000 non-educated ones. And unless you have been in a real shootout, and in the conditions that these guys were in (not ready to fire when the poop hit the fan), you can boast all you want about your stellar marks at Blackwater, but it means nothing.

If you do a search for the Diallo shooting, you'll see the whole story, but the short version is this: Diallo was approached by 4 plain clothes anti-crime officers because he fit the description of a serial rapist. he ducks into an unlit vestibule at the approach of the cops. One officer climbs the 3 steps to stop and question him. He asks for ID. Diallo turns with a black wallet in his hand. The officer yells "GUN!" and fires one shot, while stepping back. He falls down the steps and breaks his tailbone. His 3 partners believ him to be shot, and they fire. The rounds richocett of the brick and blow out the car windows. The "ear-witnesses" testify it was over in less than 6 seconds.

Now, how many will you fire if you think you're about to die? And how will your marksmanship be?

I remember our old mossback instuctor drilling us on reloading our revolvers. He paced back and forth behind us bellowing; "When is your revolver loaded? WHEN THERE IS ONE ROUND IN IT!!"

Made sense, then and now. Regards 18DAI

Before speedloader, we used belt loop slides on our gear...

I got real good at pulling 2 at a time and loading them..I still practice that move today.

I carry a speed strip for my 638...only I have six instead of five on it.

You never know...1 round may make the difference.

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Take your time..quickly.

Some guys carried speedloaders before Gadell was killed, even though they were not permitted. They did allow them after that though.

Most younger guys couldn't afford a second gun.

Reloading loose bullets with someone yelling at you, is alot different then someone SHOOTING at you.

Unless you have been in a shoot out, second guessing is easy.

If there was a situation where I heard a shot, and saw my partner go down... You bet your a** I would be unloading my weapon too.

By the way, there have been plenty of officers who have had their revolvers pulled from their broken in, worn, loosened up, open top JAYPEE type holsters, by bad guys looking to do bad things.

Heres one that I think dates to the mid 1960s

and the gun was carried by a NYPD officer starting in 1946

Dave;
I have and it's "in the works". Probably publish next year...at least that's the plan, but that's only a guess.

Cheers;
Lefty

I don't mean to drift off the subject of this thread, but since it has already been mentioned, the New York Reload has as long as I remember, been understood to mean a back up gun, in cop parlance.

The suggestion that some cops couldn't "afford" a second gun, accounting for why they were only carrying the service revolver, is pretty subjective. In most cases, some cops, young or old, hairbags or rookies just weren't gun guys or suffered the notion that they would never need a back up gun. There were also the guys who were just complacent.

The majority of "agressive" policemen I have worked with generally carried two weapons, because they couldn't "afford" not to.

Cheers;
Lefty

Swivel Hosters:
Chasing a BG on foot- one hand holding the holstered weapon down and the other hand holding the uniform hat on your head.
Jordan style Border Patrol Holster carried on a Jordan style river gun belt.
Used though out my service except the last 10 years when the Agency issued Sig P-229 with SSIII holsters

We had a "desk jockey" choose a new holster design for our department back in 1984. He chose a high ride thumb break holster because it was easier to get in and out of a chair and was more comfortable to wear around the office. Myself and several other street officers complained but the holster remained. It was awkward when drawing to fire as the hammer of the model 686 was almost touching your armpit. We later learned as the holsters started to break in that your duty revolver would frequently fall out of the holster during physical activity. More complaints to no avail.

New Years Eve 1984. Several officers, including my wife Jackie who was a Detective Sergeant, were attempting to arrest a struggling child molester. They had him face down on the ground and when they rolled him over he was holding one of the officer's model 686. Unknown to the officer it had fallen out of his holster. The first shot went through Jackie's heart, the second literly parted the hair of the officer who had lost the weapon, and the third went wild as the remaining officers finally managed to restrain the molester.

I later sued the maker of the holster. The desk jockey was lined up to testify against me but didn't have to as they settled out of court. I raised my kids and put them through college with the settlement. The type of holster does really matter.

Wow, Charlie. Sorry for your loss. It's amazing that some administrator, who very often has no street time (if he even was a cop) is the one to set policy. The input of street cop's is rarely considered.

My wife and I are retired sergeants. She was a vice and narcotics sergeant and I was an IA sergeant. I can only imagine your loss and sorrow. Some police administrators are quite competent, most wouldn't make a pimple on a good sergeant's rear end.

Charlie's story is why I do my best to let the people who USE the gear pick the gear.....

DESK BOUND COMMANDOS: is there really a need for them?
IMHO these DIPS are those who could not made it in patrol!

** Charlie: did you consider suing the administrator who insisted on keeping the holsters??

The NYC Dept of Correction used the same holster. Officers assigned to the Transportation Division used the swivel version. The draw as I remember it: grasp the bottom of the holster with your support hand while you gripped the gun and wedged your shooting hand thumb into the leather, then lift the gun out. All done as you stepped left and crouched. It was a simple design with no snaps, no canting the gun, etc. The good old days.

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Step left & crouch.

The maker of the Jay-Pee brand of leather goods is Courtlandt Boot Jack Co., 3334 Prince Street Flushing, NY 11354. Although they do not appear to have much of a web presence, they sent me a catalog a few years ago. Their web address is: http://www.jaypeepoliceproducts.com/

The NYPD holster used to be made for both the garrison belt (1 3/4") and for the Sam Browne Belt (2 1/4"). It could be had in swivel also, if the customer desired.

I do not know whether Jay-Pee is still making this holster now as NYPD has fewer revolvers on the street with each passing year. I did not see it on their web site, however, I cannot imagine it ever being completely out of production. Sort of like the Jordan River holster over at Don Hume. It is not in the catalog, but they make a run every so often.