Why Oversized Throats??

KLNC · Dec 21, 2011

As I've learned more and more about S&W revolvers, I continue to be perplexed by the fact of "oversized throats" on certain revolvers, particularly 25-2s and 25-5s. My question is why did S&W do this? Surely they had the capability of sizing throats properly? What was their thinking?

Denny Crane · Dec 21, 2011

I don't think I have ever seen the "why" question answered?

Vulcan Bob · Dec 21, 2011

At one time .454 dia. bullets were the norm and guns were made to suit. But as time went on .452 dia. bullets became the norm, perhaps as these revolver's were selling, manufacurer's were slow to change (Colt still hasent changed). Add to the mix non handloaders had very few factory ammo options, mainly Remington and Winchester with 250gr bullets, these were loaded with soft .455 dia. bullets that would fit the oversize throat's and then swage down in a .452 bore and work rather well. Reloaders would just deal with the problem with properly matched bullet choices to suit the firearm being used.

sjmjax · Dec 21, 2011

I understand why they may have done this to early 25-5's in 45 Colt.

However, I'm totally perplexed why they did this to the 25-2's in .45 ACP.

I've got two of them. One five and one three screw. Mine are the flavor that will not shoot lead bullets of any size or hardness unless you're satisfied with shotgun patterns.

Does OK with FMJ.

Shame, beautiful guns and fun to shoot but will never achieve the accuracy of my 14 or 17's - or pretty much any other S&W revolver I own.

Really wish S&W would acknowledge the screw up and make a batch of new 25-2 cylinders to correct the problem.

Frank237 · Dec 21, 2011

Add me to the list of the amazed. I've got a single 25-2 that I never shoot. The gun simply makes me angry. Beautiful, classic old N frame and it barely shoots a 4" group at 25 yds on a GOOD day.

But...My 25-7 and a 625 Lt Wt Hunter PC gun both have properly sized throats and bores and with .452" cast slugs they are lasers.

I used to shoot RP 250 gr hollow base .45 Colt lead slugs out of a few of my previous 25-2's. The soft slug with the hollow base worked quite well. Accuracy that was at least 2-3 inches at 25 yds. Then I had a tough time finding them so sold those 25-2's.

Good post...I've often wondered WHY myself.

FN in MT

mark454 · Dec 21, 2011

S&W aren't the only guilty ones. Ruger made plenty of 44 mag Redhawks and Blackhawks with .432 throats. There is some evidence that newer production Rugers have smaller throats. As to why? I have wondered that myself.
Mark

dlbx2 · Dec 21, 2011

I don't have a clue, but keep up the posts! Interesting reading and learning more everytime I log on to this forum. Thanks.

DLB

H Richard · Dec 21, 2011

Would having the cyl. chambers "sleeved" be a viable option? Rather expensive I assume.

TwoPoundPull · Dec 21, 2011

Three years ago I had S&W fit a new cylinder on my 25-5, .451 throats (orig .457-8), perfect color match, $182, shipping included.......

john traveler · Dec 21, 2011

I believe that the tradition of oversized cylinder chamber throats is a leftover from the blackpowder days. Under the old blackpowder ammunition, it was actually advantageous to have oversized chamber throats because the shooter was able to continue firing even when the chambers were badly fouled from firing residue. It was considered to be more important to be able to continue firing than have absolute accuracy from aimed shots.

So, why did this tradition in gun manufacture translate into having oversized throats in the smokeless era? Wartime manufacturing contingencies were probably the reason: transition from making .455 to .45 revolvers and accuracy "good enough" for close combat plus the ease of reloading in dirty trench conditions, plus the fact that S&W never discarded any gun parts. All guesswork on my part, but I've measured a lot of chamber throats and the results support this theory.

bob42 · Dec 21, 2011

I'm looking for a 25-2 to buy. Suppose I am at a gun show and someone has one on a table for sale. What can I do to avoid buying a gun with oversize throats. Is there a simple/quick way to check that a seller would allow?
Thanks
Bob

TDC · Dec 21, 2011

What I don't understand is why many of the guys who complain about them, often professing to hate the early 25's still own them...... Very curious!!

Some owners have kept them for thirty or forty years!!!

I've got 6 of the pre 80's Mod 25 guns and love them.... None of mine are for sale either..

john traveler · Dec 21, 2011

Bob42,

The easiest thing to do is carry some .452" jacketed bullets with you when you go to the gun show. If that size jacketed bullets drops completely through a cylinder's chamber throats, you can be sure they are oversize. If viewed carefully with background light, you can almost estimate the amount oversize. 0.455-0.0456" throats show a clearance about the thickness of a piece of typing paper (0.003")

Tom C · Dec 21, 2011

I have a 25-2 with .456" throats, a 625-8JM and 625PC with .452" throats. The 25-2 originally had chamber alignment problems. I had to grind the cylinder locking bolt a little and fit a thicker hand to correct the problem. I also had to recut the forcing cone. Now the bullets hit in the middle of the forcing cone and it no longer spits and shoots very well. I suspect that the typical loads I shoot, a 200 Hornady FMJ-CT with mild loads of 231, shoots well because it is a jacketed bullet and the base doesn't get burned by blow-by in the large throats, and the large pistol primer in the dinky .45 ACP case pounds the bullet through the oversize throat into the barrel before the power can develop enough pressure to blow by. That is just a guess. The 25-2 and 625s all shoot very well.

KLNC · Dec 21, 2011

After reading all the posts, I'm even more confused that I was when I originally posted. I had asked why S&W made oversized throats. Now from the responding posts it appears they made SOME throats oversized, and some not. There had to be some reason, unless they just had poor QC on the machining of the cylinders.

Nightowl · Dec 21, 2011

Whatever the reason, it appears that they were shipped with throats in the .456-458 range up until around 1980, from what I recall from the threads here over the years, and in measuring the throats in the guns I have. I certainly believe it was intentional. I am with the rest of you, don't know the reason why.

guzzi · Dec 21, 2011

Dunno why S&W did it either, my 25-5 is oversized as well but shoots to poi at 25 yds w/in 3" in a steady rest using 250gr .452 flat nose hardcast lead with Unique. I love this gun, I am the second owner of one that had such a faint turn line on the cylinder that I thought it was almost unfired.
It was a very lucky score and I would rather be lucky than good! jb

Hamden · Dec 22, 2011

I have 1955 model 5 screw S130xxx. It has nice tight throats. Shoots X ring with 200gr JSWC at 50 yds.

Also have newer 25-2 N62xxx with large throats. It shoots well at 50. But I have not tested it as much as the 5 screw.

Tom C · Dec 22, 2011

KLNC said:
As I've learned more and more about S&W revolvers, I continue to be perplexed by the fact of "oversized throats" on certain revolvers, particularly 25-2s and 25-5s. My question is why did S&W do this? Surely they had the capability of sizing throats properly? What was their thinking?

I suspect the why is related to WWI and the conversion of the .45 Colt revos to .45 ACP. At that time the .45 Colt was .454" in diameter and .455" to .456" throats probably worked fine. When they did the quick conversion to .45 ACP they probably shortened the cylinder and chambered it for .45 ACP and didn't think about the throat. It probably worked fine with 230 FMJ, after all the early 1917 Colts had straight bored through chambers and I have never heard anything about their accuracy being unacceptable. If the chambers aligned with the bore axis and the forcing cone was good, they probably shot fine and they saw no reason to change anything until they used the same large throats on the .25-5 .45 Colt in the late '70s. With the .45 Colt having been standardized on ..451"-.452" like the .45 ACP following WWII, the .45 Colt no longer worked well in .456" throats. In the early '80s S&W appears to have come to the conclusion they had to tighten up the throats and they did.

linde · Dec 22, 2011

I've been told some model 25-5s were returned to the factory to correct oversize cylinder throats. My 25-5 was shipped in December 1980 and has .451"-.452" throats, but don't know if it originally left the factory that way or the cylinder was later replaced. When I disassembled it, I found the frame's serial number on the rear face of the cylinder . . . under the extractor star.

Does anyone else out there have a similar example and do you suspect (as I do) that a stamped s/n on the cylinder indicates that such examples made a trip back to the factory for a replacement cylinder?

Russ

Why Oversized Throats??

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