In 1971 when I first entered law enforcement the PD contract battle between Colt and S&W had already been decided. The S&W Model 10 had won, and by a large margin. From what I have ascertained, several reasons led to the Official Police going from first to last. The pre-war Colt OP was leading in PD and civilian sales and in the post war years that flipped. The training for law enforcement, after the war, changed and no single action shooting was done anymore which was beneficial to the M&P. The M&P trigger was a smooth delivery on double-action shooting whereas the OP had a "stacking" issue at the end of the double-action trigger-pull, which was off-setting to some. The price of the OP was going up and up, much more so than the S&W blasters. The OP trigger-workings had to be "hand-honed" and "hand-fitted" by an advanced craftsman. This was a time consuming and expensive process for Colt, but this alone didn't drive the cost up as much as the labor cost. The labor union had Colt in a strangle hold in post-war years and labor cost "soared" at Colt driving the cost of all Colt firearms up and up! Are you getting the picture? True, the stacking trigger of the Colt Revolver didn't help but the labor costs was the ultimate knockout shot! Management at Colt committed its share of blunders too along the way adding to the companies woes. Colt started losing PD contracts on service revolvers and in 1973 when Ruger entered into the police revolver business, that was it! By 1975 most large contracts was going to S&W with Ruger getting most of the rest. This, I believe, led to the battle between the Colt Official Police and the Smith & Wesson Model 10 being decided, not by quality, but by labor costs at Colt, which led to the victory of the Model 10 over the OP.

I know this is a rather simple mans way of looking at "what" killed off a great revolver like the Official Police but I think that "it-is-what-it-is". I was first introduced to the Model 10 as a rookie cop in 1971. This was our PD authorized duty revolver then and I was issued a Model 10-5. A blue steel finish with a four-inch tapered barrel. In that same time period I was given a Colt Official Police .38 as a Christmas present and for years following I got familiar with both. To this day my "authorized" duty gun is the same Official Police from my rookie year. I also have a Model 10-5 too, just like the one in my rookie year (71), and with good .38 ammo I don't feel under-gunned one bit. I was grand-fathered in with my Colt if the reader is wondering what a cop in 2013 is doing with a .38 revolver in his holster. The very last of the wheelgun guys with no other law enforcement officer in this area packing the old service revolver. The "feel" of an all-steel sixgun in my hand, be it my Colt or my Model 10, would always take precedent with me over black square polymer self-loaders anytime. Thanks my friends!
David

This earns you a "like" from me.

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I'm with the banned ...

Colt's refusal to embrace stainless probably didn't help them at all.

My 1st service revolver was a " Colt OP in the 70's, although Model 10s were issued as well; when the switch was made to 4" guns in 1980, mine was replaced by a 4" OP. The decision was made to go with stainless in the early 80s, and Colt was out of the picture at that point, with no dog in the fight, and gave up.

If you really want to compare actions, try to find an old guy who shot a Colt in PPC as opposed to a Smith - there ain't many!

My first service revolver was a Model 19. On my department we bought our own equipment and though I owned a Python at the time I could never bring myself to put any holster wear on it. When S&W came out with their stainless revolvers it was a no brainer to switch to a Model 66. By then I also owned a stainless Python but once again I didn't want to put any holster wear on it.

Dabney,
I think its really cool that you still carry a revolver. I would think you are one of the few.

My hat is off to you.
Wingmaster

When I joined in 1978, there were S&W Model 10's of every vintage, Colt O.P.'s and Colt Police Positives. We carried them in cross draw flap holsters. In 1985, after several Officer shootings our Dept transitioned to a conventional open holster worn on the strong side made by "Boss Rogers". The holster only fit the S&W Model 10 securely. Anyone that had a non S&W (I was issued a 50's vintage hand-me-down Police Positive, that I really liked BTW) had to turn them in. I ended up with a new Model 10-7 tapered barrel. I heard that all the Colts were sent to the bottom of Lake Ontario, which was quite common back then during gun amnesties. The tree huggers would have a fit now.

The kiss of death for Colt's market share was the price.
In the days before WWII, the average Cop was issued a revolver in a police academy and carried it for his entire career.

After the war, departments began trading guns in for new ones every few years and the higher price of the Colt was harder to justify.
Before the war, most major departments and the FBI and other law enforcement usually bought Colt. After the war they started mixing the brands, and the tendency to follow what the "big boys" were buying got confused.

While Colt came out with the world's first medium frame DA revolver in .357 Magnum with the 3-5-7 Model it was more expensive and S&W still managed to steal the market with the lighter, "Sexier" S&W Model 19 with it's shrouded barrel.
The Model 19 became THE police revolver, and this carried over to the cheaper fixed sight models.
By the time Colt came out with the Mark III series, the revolver was on the way out and it was too late.

Still, a LOT of American cops carried Colt Troopers and especially the Detective Special for a good many years, but the S&W was too far ahead in Service pistols for Colt to hang on.
Just as S&W was congratulating themselves on capturing the American police market, some weird terrorist's plastic pistol named "Glock" showed up.

S&W all the way, as I do not ride horses.....

I started in the mid-1980's, and I only carried a revolver a couple of years before we went to wonder 9's. I started with a model 13, and then when my funding allowed (we bought our own firearms) I picked up a 686. I never really liked the Colts because of the trigger stacking. Most of the officers carried either Smiths or Rugers.

Fast forward to 2013 and Glock is still making essentially the same gun and starting to see their market dominance eroded by...Smith & Wesson and the M&P model. Oh someone at Glock saw that the ergonomics of the M&P and the interchangable back strap was gaining favor and came out with the Gen 4 to compete. Poor attempt IMHO. It's still a 2x4 like grip in my hand.

I love my N frames, but not sure I want to carry one around everyday just due to the weight, mainly. I would feel just as capable and safe with one though.

I wonder if we'll look back fondly on the polymer guns of this era when energy beam weapons are the current norm? Somehow I doubt it. Kind of like cars. I doubt anyone 60 years from now will look at anything being sold today and say, "Wow look at that classic beauty." Like we do when we see a '57 T-bird, Cadillac, or other greats of that era.

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M&P Pistol and Rifle Armorer

I put a Colt Official Police and Model 10 head to head so to speak a while back.

The Gun Zone -- Police Revolvers

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Vaya con Dios

No...classics are classics for a reason. I hear alot more Eric Clapton, Aerosmith and Fleetwood Mac on the radio today than I do the BeeGees or KC and the Sunshine Band...

Just saying....

We always say it's about hitting your target, not the caliber or number of rounds you fire. A 158 gr RNL in the right place does the same job 17 rds of 9X19 will do.

I don't think the postwar years were as devestating to colt as dabney indicates. Colt still had a very strong market and following well into the 60s. Chic Gaylord spoke VERY highly of the Colt Official Police in his Handgunners Guide of 1960. Calling it "rugged and dependable" praising it as the finest service revolver that has stood the test of time. Didn't think too highly of S&W's either. Claimed the OP could handle loads that would turn S&W K frames into "shards of flying steel"

Personally I prefer the Colt Official Police (though I do like the S&W Model 10. My dad has a M-10-5 that I got him for his B day 8 years ago. It's the gun he simply calls "A Thirty Eight Special" or "My Thirty Eight Special" that he grew up associating with police in the 1950s in Jackson, MS.)

Anyway, the Offical Police used to be more common than Glocks are today and for a MUCH longer period of time. Half a century. It is in fact built on a larger frame than the Model 10. It has a larger cylinder with thicker walls. It has a heavier barrel. (except for the HB version of the M-10, which Gaylord actually admired S&W for having done in 1960 but still wondered about the smaller cylinder). Personally I don't mind the stacking. Not only have I gotten used to it, but it actually helps me in accuracy in a way. It causes the shooter to squeeze instead of jerk not only the trigger but the whole gun...almost making it feel like a part of your hand by the time it goes BOOM

Until Mel Gibson, Bruce Willis, Keanu Reeves, etc. came along in the late 80s with their spray cans hosing 9mm and .40 S&W rounds all over creation while bouncing off walls and gave all the young rookie cops with their revolvers inferiority complexes . And of course all my gun enthusiast peers feel the same way. They all have to have 15 rounds crammed into a gun because they're afraid Jason Voorhees is going to come after them and "six won't be enough" or they'll get into some Matrixish situation.

I'm young and I seem to go against all this. I actually prefer revolvers to semi autos in shooting, handling and even carrying. I don't feel the least bit undergunned with 6 shots in a Colt or S&W .38 spl. and am striving for shot placement, not spraying and praying Mel Gibson style. If I'm in so bad a situation where I need a jillion rounds, 1) I'm probably going to die, 2) I don't want any handgun, I want my rifle or shotgun.

(Let's remember that it was a S&W loaded with .38 Special and a man using well placed shots that finally put down the two savage killers armed with sawed off shotguns and Ruger Mini 14s in the Miami-Dade shootout in 1986. Not high capacity 9mms that were used by several of the FBI agents present)

I have several S&W md 10s as well as several older pre 10 M&Ps and
one Colt Official Police 4" 38 spl made in the early 50s. I like the colt
for what it is and shoot it occasionally with my plinking loads along
with my older M&Ps. I treat all of my older 38 spls the same way; light
loads and gentle handling with all shooting single action only. When
it comes to comparisons between the two I defer to what I read in an
article in the American Rifleman magazine some years back rather
than subjective evaluations of things like handling and trigger pull.
The article stated that during WW2 the US Government tested the
S&W M&P and Colt OP and found the S&W to be far more durable and
reliable and relegated the Colt to basically non combat duty.

From an appearance standpoint I think the Official Police is a very attractive revolver and it is a classic. Here are a couple of mine that I still trot out to the range once in awhile.

Attached Images

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Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone know the reason why the cylinder release latch on a S&W is activated by a forward motion of the thumb (toward the muzzle), and on a Colt it is activated toward the shooter?

I bought a Colt King Cobra from a co-worker a few years ago and could never get used to the "backwards" cylinder release. I ended up trading it for a S&W 610 and never looked back!

Thanks,
Lou

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NRA Certified Instructor & RSO

Lou, It's just a traditional design thing. Colt designed theirs first and I'm sure S&W didn't want to copy them. On Rugers you push the latch straight in.

"I put a Colt Official Police and Model 10 head to head so to speak a while back."
Thats a great article Dave, very enjoyable reading about two old warhorses head to head!

My first service revolver (1962) was a used Colt Trooper .38spl. Everyone else with my first agency used S&W M10s or M15s except one former Army MP who carried a Colt M1911A1 .45acp. Even with "Police Discounts" Colts price was higher than S&Ws. This was an era that officers purchased their own weapon. I had a Colt for two reasons (1) my Father and Uncles carried Colt Official Police Revolvers with six inch barrels (2) The Colt Trooper 4" .38spl was the only revolver that the local pawn shop would trade for my German Luger DWM 1915 9mm that I had had "Nickel Plated" previously. Later I purchased a new S&W Model 10 4" blue for the Police Discount Price of $48.80 from SaSo Police Supply. The first FBI training school I attended I shown up with a Colt .38 in a crossdraw holster. I found out very quickly that the FBI did not like Colts or crossdraw holsters !

Colt invented the modern swing-out cylinder, double action revolver in 1889.
This was the Colt New Army & Navy Models made from 1889 to 1907.
These early Colt DA revolvers had cylinders that rotated Counterclockwise and had the side plate on the right side of the frame.
When Colt did a total redesign and brought out the Colt Army Special in 1908, the cylinder rotation was changed to clockwise and the side plate was moved to the left side.
Colt felt that rotating the cylinder clockwise would force the cylinder into the frame for a tighter lock up then forcing it outward against the cylinder latch which would wear.

One reason for Colt's pull-back cylinder release was that inertia would tend to keep the release locked under recoil.
in those days, shooting was done one handed in the classic "duelist" target style.
In this kind of shooting, the thumb was high on the gun and the cylinder release made a great rest for the thumb.
Inertia and your thumb held the release locked tightly locked.
On these older Colt's the cylinder release was checkered to improve the grip of the thumb.

I started in 1980. Was quite disappointed that my 'chosen' department, the capital city of NC - passed around a cardboard box of revolvers during my academy. I got the best blued Colt Trooper MK III .357, only to learn that the duty round was .38 +P.
I was single - had alot of time, and literally wore out a couple of Trooper MK III's.
Once, evidently on my LAST round the firing pin let go - and I ended up carrying a duty weapon with NO firing pin for 2 weeks at work.
That was a sobering experience.
And soon thereafter, the department went to S&W 4" M66's. And that was 'cutting edge' at the time - very exciting.

__________________
Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

Todds112:
The S&W 327 N-frames offer 8 rounds of .357 in a lighter weight revolver - scandium/aluminum and titanium. Not hard to carry. I love 'em. I had two, both stolen by our sons, one of whom is a LEO, the other active military. THEY love 'em. WHEN I can beg them back for a spell, they get used for backpacking and day hiking. Or challenges at the range. Now, if I could only cut the boomerang bungee cords the boys put on 'em . . ..
The 627 series guns are also N-frame .357 8-shooters, short-barreled, steel. Thunderously noisy, dragon blast flame, not tough to control or carry.
AND, if you use .44 Special loads or downloaded magnums, the 329PD is an excellent N-frame "carry lots, shoot little" gun. I have one with a 4" barrel. It's now available with a 6" barrel - called the "XL Hunter." If I hadn't already spent boo coo bucks customizing mine, I buy the 6" model.

My first duty weapon (1977) was a S&W Model 10 with the heavy barrel. It was smooth and a great shooter. Couldn't waIt to move on to a Python in my next department.

I would love to get one of those heavy barrel model 10 for myself these days.

I've seen Colt OP photos demonstrating gripping the gun in this way with the thumb high resting on the release in Jerry K.'s book what looks like a 1940sish ad.

I shoot my OPs in this way a lot. It actually feels kinda natural like your index finger is keeping the gun pointed straight alongside from the right while your thumb is keeping it straight from alongside the left. Feels like the gun is a part of your hand almost

REALLY???? What if you had to use the gun??? CLICK CLICK...oh shoot...er well....well you get the idea O_O

Me too. A guy I know found out I was into handguns, and told me that he wanted to go out & buy a Beretta Nano, a S&W Shield, and some sort of Glock. I don't kow where the idea for the Glock came from, but the Nano & Shield had just gotten write-ups in American Rifleman so I figure that's where he came up with those. Anyway, when I asked if these were for range use, carry use, and/or home defense, he told me they would be "investments". I told him that in my opinion those plastic whizbang guns were probably great shooters but they'd never gain value as collector's items, and that he'd be better off to invest in an older python or model 29 or better yet some mutual funds.

I own both and I confess I prefer the Colt, though I have put several hours in smoothing it. Were it not for that I would go with the S&W. Either one will do the job very nicely. The S&W is a damn sight easier to work on. A lot of armorers and gunsmiths don't do Colt revolvers any more.

Nice revolvers! Thanks.

This thread needs more pictures.

The mark III series had their firing pins made out of sintered metal an early form of MIM parts. I had a lawman mark III and it had the same issue. Colt stopped using sintered metal on the mark V series.


Scott Campbell
Remember wheel guns are real guns too
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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Wheel guns are real guns too.

Only Barneys carried Colts!! (and one bullet)

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PTLAPTA!

My LEO career began in 1968 (Ret. 1997) w/a dept. issued Colt OP. I had to defend myself against an armed bad guy (BG) and he went down. Six years later I was a detective armed w/my issued Det. Spl. and came out ahead again when the BG decided to shoot it out w/us after an armed robbery. Fast foreward a few years and I got myself in the middle of a hostage situation as a uniformed sergeant and took out the BG w/my issued S&W Model 15, the hostage was not harmed.

Given the training we received at the time I was able to come out ahead w/either an issued (by my agency) Smith or Colt. In retirement my EDC is an early 90's nickle 442. My first off-duty Colt Cobra, circa 1968, is not carried much anymore b/c I want to pass it down and don't like the idea of it sitting in police evidence if I had to use it.

It's really a shame that Colt got out of the .38 snubbie business, but either one will do the job if you get the training and practice as often as possible.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I own an Official Police and a .38 Special Trooper (pre-Mk III). I also own a post-WWII S&W M&P transitional, a pre WWI M&P and an M&P Model of 1899. I like all five of them. Great revolvers. I would have been hard pressed to decide between the two makes back in the day.

FWIW I carry a Glock 19 3rd Generation as my primary duty sidearm. I like it. It's a good pistol. While I don't get into it like I do my revolvers I appreciate it and trust it. I intend to retire from my agency and get it as my retirement gift (which is what my agency does). One of these days I might be one of the old cops who is the only one left still carrying a Glock. As it is I'm one of the few left who is still using a Safariland Level III holster. I like it. I've been using it for the past thirteen years and my skill level is pretty good with it. I'm starting to hear jokes about my dinosaur holster.

I also plan on sticking with my G19 3rd Generation. The 4th Generation is okay, but I don't see any solid advantage over the one I carry. I'll keep my "old" Glock.

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I type. Therefore I am.

That was a good article. I printed it out and have it with my miscellaneous guns & ammo articles.

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I type. Therefore I am.

David LaPell, I like the article too.

I have a squad or more of M&P/M10s and three Colt O.P.'s in the 4, 5, and 6 inch barrels.

With a K-Frame .38 Special I suspect that one can "occasionally" fire .38-44 loads, But should stick to +P or standard loads. My top end K-Frame .38 load is a 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter at about 900 fps.

With an O.P I believe that one can shoot .38-44 (158 grain bullet at 1150 fps) loads all day long. I load my O.P.'s with 158 grain lead semi-wadcutters to about 1,000 fps.

I consider the balance of the 5 inch barrels in either brand to be the best, to the point of excellent.

I prefer the S&W double-action pull over the Colt but a Colt that has been properly worked on is very easy to shoot. Unfortunately I am finding that even in factory worked Colts the D/A pull/stack varies. I am assuming that is because the action is very difficult to work on, even back then.

The downside of the O.P.'s is that I can buy a S&W M586/686 (I have two and want more) and load it to true .357 Magnum velocities and never worry. You can also do so with a Python or MKIII but once again you have a more difficult D/A pull issue, and in the case of the MKIII's I am beginning to distrust them because of the sintered hammers. I have heard too many negatives about them to chance buying one that was abused and then fails, and then having to search for parts which may not be new and so on and so forth. But the MKIII's I have handled have a great balance.

P.S. I never was a Cop, I wasn't mean enough.......

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Have guns...will shoot'em.

I've performed a head to head with my 1954 6 inch tapered barrel S&W Pre-model 10 Vs. my 1955 Colt Official Police 6 inch bbl. At 50 feet standing I can shoot the Colt better SA and the S&W better SA. When I pit my 1978 S&W Model 10-5, 5 inch tapered barrel against my near mint 1943 Colt Official Police inch, the Smith wins both SA and DA hands down. The S&W hits POA with all normal loads.The Colt hits 6 inches left, 5 inches low with 158 grain and 2 inches left, 2-3 inches low with 125-130 grain ammo.

Great article David. I've got early 1950s examples of both the M&P and the Official Police, both with 4-inch barrels and have intended to give them side-by-side run.

In your article, when you refer to the new Colt revolver introduced in 1908, you probably meant Army Special rather than New Army.

Nice article.


Scott Campbell
Remember wheel guns are real guns too
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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Wheel guns are real guns too.

Interesting thread and I wish I had more to add.

My Father-in-law was a Philadelphia Police Officer and I believe he started in the early 50's. His first duty gun was this Colt OP with a 5" barrel.





(I need to take some better pictures)

My FIL told me he only had to shoot it once in the line of duty sometime back in the 60's. Apparently he was chasing a burglary suspect in a railroad yard, and the suspect was winning the race. He said the suspect climbed up a railroad car to get away for him so he "took a shot at him" but missed. How times have changed!

My FIL wasn't much of a gun person. After he retired, the gun stayed hidden in a box in the back of a closet. He gave it to me as a Christmas present 7 years ago because he knew I would appreciate it and take better care of it than it had ever been cared for before. He was right. His gun certainly means a lot to me and it will be passed down to my oldest Son one day, hopefully while I'm still alive to see that same glimmer is his eyes that I'm sure I had when I opened that box on Christmas.

My Father-in-law passed away two years ago. He was a great man and I miss him and his stories dearly.

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Rick
SWCA #2727 , SWHF #435

Very neat. I have my father's old duty S&W 4586. One of these days his S&W 65 (which he carried for many many years before switching to the 4586 at the end of his career as a state trooper) will be in my collection as well. They won't go anywhere. Take care of that OP.

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I type. Therefore I am.

1blindref;

Many thanks for your story and photos. Your FIL sounds like, what we use to call, an RP (REAL COP). A cop, who was a cop, and not like the social workers we are today. Take care of that OP sir as you already know, IT was part of him and his job, a cop! In a time period when law enforcement was a S&W Model of 1905 4th Change M&P .38 and/or Model 10 or the "legendary" Colt Official Police. Real cop guns for real cops!

David

I've been wearing a badge for almost thirteen years and while the job has changed from when my father was in the field (1970-1994) I'm as much a cop as he was. Last October I was one of the first officers on scene when two deputies were gunned down by a suspect wanted in questioning for an aggravated assault and I got one of the deputies out of there and to the ambulance with the (armed) suspect still around in the dark. That's police work - not social work. I understand the desire to think the "younger" generation is somehow not as capable (I'm 45 incidentally), but it's not always accurate or truthful.

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I type. Therefore I am.

Checkman, you use the word "I" way too many times! My post had nothing to do with you and your capabilities as a cop at all. Nor did it have anything to do with younger cops either! It had to do with the "way" the job of law enforcement has changed. If you think, for a second, that we, as cops, have not gravitated to more social work over the years it is because you were NOT there and don't know! Whats worse, in your post, you were describing what "you" did as a cop! Don't you think, just for a nano-second, that an old 60-something year old cop, like myself, with 41-years experience under my belt, could wear you out and our friends here out with war stories, truthful war stories! That came with the job! Not to use to justify your existence or your standing as a cop.

In short sir, my post was to praise the gentleman on his Colt OP and a brief mention of "whats" going on currently (social workers) in cop world. If you don't agree that it has changed you quickly need to school yourself because it "has" changed and for the worse! That's not the diatribe of an old "grumpy" cop as you called me on the pm side, that's reality!

Okay. You're right. It's my Friday and it was a lousy day. All the usual garbage that we get to deal with. I was in a piss poor mood. Shortly after I sent you the PM I found myself in a high-speed pursuit along with several other officers on the Interstate. We caught the two suspects and nobody got hurt, but it's just been one of those kind of days. You're right. Guess I'm the grumpy cop today.No hard feelings?

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I type. Therefore I am.

Hello Checkman!

The sign of a "real" man is one who moves quickly to correct a "slight"! You moved quickly sir, and for that you get two check marks to the good! My arm is figuratively around your shoulder now! Thank you my friend!

David

I was just starting my report and decided to look over a few sites first. I found your response and realized I had been something of a.........well butt head is the word my teenage daughter likes. Anyway glad there's no hard feelings. Talk to you later. Have to get my son to his practice so I'm in a hurry. Ciao.

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I type. Therefore I am.

I love reading the stories about classic revolvers. "Old Cop" glad you came out ahead and keep carrying your gun because courage never retires. I carried a Smith and Wesson Model 10-8 on the NYPD. Colt Service guns were no longer a choice when I came on in 1984. Some of the old timers back then had the Colt OP. When I purchased my off duty, I went with Dad who was retired NYPD. He carried a Smith and Wesson Military and Police 4" on duty and off. We looked at the S & W Chief, the Colt Detective Special and the "Colt Commando?" it was the same as the DS without the nice finish.. I chose the Chief and still carry it once in a while. The price difference between the guns were huge to me at the time. Chief was about $ 150- $175 and the DS was about $450 and the Commando? was about $350. Dad told me to get the DS but I wanted the Chief. Probably should have got the Detective Special, a nice gun. I am retired now and I carry a Glock 19 now because of the ammo capacity and ease of operation, but I still like the old revolvers.

Original Pre-war Colt brochure