Model 19 urban legend?

A cousin was discussing having his 6" blue Mod 19 cut down to 3 5/8 ". I asked why this odd length and why not just get a 4 inch? He said he had heard that back in the 60's, before the 10mm and 40 cal, the FBI did a study and concluded that the optimum barrel length for a .357 was 3 5/8 inches because that was the absolute minimum length required for the .357 to perform at its potential. He went on to say the FBI ordered 650 of these revolvers in 6 inch and had them cut down. ( Why didn't they just order them straight from the factory at 3 5/8 inches? After all we're talking about Mr. Hoover here) I think he may be confusing this with a run of RB 3 or 4 inchers made for the ONI and NIS and later transferred to the FBI. Anyway, I told him I'd ask. Anyone know anything about this 3 5/8 inch thing?

Never heard that one. The FBI usually went with fixed sight S&W revolvers-M10 and M13 3".

It's not a super simple equation.The optimal barrel length would depend on the powder and the bullet weight. Heavier bullets and slower powders requiring longer barrels to get up to full speed. Any bullet should be still gaining speed at 4". But the difference between a 4" and 3" barrel in terms of terminal performance is definitely not worth cutting an original barrel for, IMO. In fact unless your target is ballistic gel and you are also armed with calipers, the only extra damage that cut barrel is going to do, is to the wallet of the owner.

jgh4445 said:

A cousin was discussing having his 6" blue Mod 19 cut down to 3 5/8 ". I asked why this odd length and why not just get a 4 inch? He said he had heard that back in the 60's, before the 10mm and 40 cal, the FBI did a study and concluded that the optimum barrel length for a .357 was 3 5/8 inches because that was the absolute minimum length required for the .357 to perform at its potential. He went on to say the FBI ordered 650 of these revolvers in 6 inch and had them cut down. ( Why didn't they just order them straight from the factory at 3 5/8 inches? After all we're talking about Mr. Hoover here) I think he may be confusing this with a run of RB 3 or 4 inchers made for the ONI and NIS and later transferred to the FBI. Anyway, I told him I'd ask. Anyone know anything about this 3 5/8 inch thing?

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No offense, but your cousin has been listening to far too many "gun shop commandos." Either that, or the LGS (local gun shop has a butcher with too much time on his hands and more tools than brains) and he needs a "custom project."

The FBI always issued 4 inch guns as basic duty guns. Typically, they were Model 10s or Colt Police Positives or later, the Colt Official Police.

They issued some Model 19s along the way with adjustable sights, the most famous being the ONI guns, which were 4 inch round butt Model 19s transferred to the FBI from the Navy ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence).

When they started looking at shorter guns, they had S&W make some 2 1/2 inch Model 10s with round butt, and then later they finally settled on the 3 inch Model 13. The 2 1/2 inch guns were made in 1974, two years after J. Edgar Hoover died.

It should be remembered that all this time, the primary issue ammo for the FBI was the Winchester "FBI Load," which is a 158 grain Lead Hollow Point +P.

The Model 13s were adopted in 1982, long after J. Edgar Hoover's death (he passed away in May 1972, if I recall). Pursuant to J. Edgar Hoover's long standing policy adopted when the Bureau ordered Registered Magnums, .357s were normally loaded with .38 Special ammo and the Magnum rounds were authorized for carry in special cases or by special arrangements with the Special Agent in Charge (SAC) or some other supervisor. The official Magnum load adopted by the FBI was the Winchester 145 grain Silver Tip in order that the FBI could avoid the flame cutting issues of the 125 grain Magnums.

In any event, there are all sorts of stuff that the Gun Vault people have done at Quantico in terms of experimentation, but I have absolutely never heard of long barreled S&Ws modified to 3 5/8 inch by the FBI.

One plausible explanation for the genesis of this "gun shop garbage," is the fact that Registered Magnums (all of them) made by S&W started with 8 3/4 inch barrels and the factory shortened them to the length ordered by the customer, with the minimum being 3 1/2 inch. That, however, was a factory thing, not an FBI thing.

I have never heard of this little story promoted by your cousin. I will be quite curious to follow this to see if any other reliable source has any real information on this apart from "my cousin heard."

No offense to your cousin, but he needs to leave his fine 6 inch revolver stock. That revolver is discontinued as are replacement barrels.

If he insists, tell him his revolver will be worth about $50 after it is butchered. Save him the trouble, pay him the $50 and buy the revolver from him without him having to use his labor and tools to saw off the barrel. I mean, if he is willing to destroy its value, save him the cost and trouble of modification and just buy it for the reduced value now.

Have your cousin read the book "Magnum - The S&W .357 Magnum Phenomenon" by T.J. Mullin, and have him also read, or at least look at the pictures with this article:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/history-of-fbi-handguns/

Super information Shawn. Thanks so much. It pretty much runs along the same path as my research led me. I'll pass along the info.

jgh4445 said:

Super information Shawn. Thanks so much. It pretty much runs along the same path as my research led me. I'll pass along the info.

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Glad to help! Stop by anytime!



Shawn

Back in the 60s my first department had us buy Model 10s with 6" barrel. Next department required a 4" barrel so I had it changed to a 4". 40+ years later I decide to put the 6" back on and take it to a gunsmith who says whoever did the 4" did it in a way that it can no longer be removed??? Go figure. I attribute the "need" to change to the riots. Before the riots cops were respected. After we were attacked a lot more often. Pretty near impossible to draw a 6" from a leg holster while behind the wheel. 4" went in waist holsters...easy access when driving. Don't think the new department cared about the ballistics...more about access. But them was the olden days.

If he cuts that barrel down, you should refer to him as "My Cousin, Ninny".

IF he were to cut the barrel, please don't post it. The weeping would be audible.

I have also heard that but it's been decades.

Some correction here Shawn:

shawn mccarver said:

It should be remembered that all this time, the primary issue ammo for the FBI was the Winchester "FBI Load," which is a 158 grain Lead Hollow Point +P.

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Also issued was the same load by Federal. Depended on the year and contract.

The official Magnum load adopted by the FBI was the Winchester 145 grain Silver Tip in order that the FBI could avoid the flame cutting issues of the 125 grain Magnums.

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In the 1970s the issued FBI .357 load was either the Remington or W-W 158 gr LSWC. A non-HP load. I still have several boxes of each.
In the picture below from left to right is the Remington .357 158, middle is the W-W .357 158, and the right is the W-W .38 158 gr LSWCHP+P. Somewhere around here still have a few boxes of Federal .38 158 gr LSWCHP+P.

The OP referred to this as a possible urban legend. That's a good name for it as every other urban legend has proven to be made up, just as this no doubt was.

But for the record, since S&W made 3.5" 357 Magnums and later Model 27s with the same barrel length, a 3-5/8" (or more practically a 3.5") Model 19 would kind of fit right in there. Not worth cutting a 4" down but if the factory made one I'd just as well have that as the 3". I've always like the short M-27. I bet I'd like this one too.

Dave

3/8"

The difference in length of a 3-5/8" barrel and a 4" barrel is 3/8" of an inch. That's not much.

The FBI did later issue 145 grain Silvertip .357 ammo, as did Dallas PD. Both found it very effective, based on what an officer told me. I think a current agent (SIG-P-220 on the board) confirmed the use. The retired detective here who said that it was quite effective was in a Dallas suburban dept. and had access to local shooting data.

However, the more common load for both the Bureau and Dallas PD was the lead Plus P HP .38. One Dallas officer used that in his M-64 to kill six suspects. No problems.

But the .357 option was there for those who wanted it. I think the authorized .357 round for the remaining grandfathered Dallas guns is still that 145 grain Silvertip. Newer officers wanting similar power have to use .357 SIG autos. Both the P-226 and P-229 are in use. The officer whom I asked about this wears a P-229.

jgh, I think your cousin was misled by some smoke blowing fool.Bad info passed on to you...Remember, "second hand smoke kills". Nick

There are many more , and different burning rate gunpowders today than way back then. Simply saying a 3 5/8in barrel is optimum , without knowing the powder type, bullet weight and type is foolish.
A heavy charge of 2400 or H110 will give a big muzzle blast , fireball , but not necessarily the velocity out of a short barrel than it will out of a 6-8in barrel than will a medium charge of Unique or HS-5.

The 6" Model 19 makes a fine target revolver on the range. They are rapidly becoming collectors items and S&W does not make barrels for them any more.

If your cousin wants a shorter barrel, yet fearsome K frame 357 - tell him to leave the 19 alone and buy a companion for it, namely a 3" Model 13 or 65.

Load the 3" 13 or 65 with Speer 135 grain short barrel ammo in .38 +P or .357. The Short Barrel load in .357 is very controlable yet also very effective. My 3" 65 is one of my favorite guns and allways with me in the Colorado mountians.

The bullet in the Speer SB loads is specially designed to expand in the velocity range produced by short barreled revolvers.

I think the only urban legend I recall about the Model 19 (and heard that's it more than an urban legend in some cases) had to do with cracked forcing cones. I don't recall anything about this with the barrel length. I know that the FBI picked up the Registered Magnums with the 3 1/2 inch barrels because that's what the shortest barrel length was from the factory, but some like Walter Walsh had a 4-inch gun. I am not sure what barrel length D.A. Bryce carried in the FBI as far as barrel length since he had a .44 Special prior to his joining the Bureau.

The field offices had 5" Model 27s in their vaults for issue for special assignments. Also 1911s in .38 Super. Some SAs had personally purchased 27s but I never knew any who carried them everyday. Some started out carrying them daily but quickly tired of having to hitch up their pants every 15 minutes and carrying the extra weight before switching to various K frames. The 2.5" Mod 19 was probably the most popular personal purchase.