pretty bulky gun. Especially if you have target grips. I train primarily as a one handed shooter with my handguns but this gun is hard to handle with one hand. I can fast draw and shoot it one hand. I can duel stance shoot it one hand, but wielding it as a service revolver in a combat situation...is this just psychological on my part?

My first LE gun was a 4" Model 27, the fancy sister to the 28. It worked just fine. Must be psychological.

I like mine for one handed point shooting. I'm getting a lot better at it and have only had it since the end of January. Next step is one handing the 629. I figure the 28-2 will seem even easier after that.

My first duty gun was a M28-2 so I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your question. Not sure what you mean by "...wielding it as a service revolver in a combat situation..."

Unless there is a physical limitation that makes you use only one hand I would highly recommend you start training with two hands on the gun. There are a number of reasons for this but the two I emphasized to my students (LEO and civilian) were that it gave you more control in bringing the gun on target and recovering from recoil after the first shot, and second that it gave you a significantly stronger hold on the gun should a suspect try to take it away from you.

If those kinds of things are what you mean by "wielding" then a two hand hold is your answer. If that isn't possible then a smaller gun and or grip that you can control more easily may be the way to go.

YMMV,
Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

http://www.imfdb.org/images/a/a8/Dragn67_02.jpg

here is a stillshot of, I believe, an real cop on the range drawing and point shooting with one. Taken from an episode of the 60s Dragnet from Jack Webb's opening "this is the city" narration. From the actual video looks to be handled pretty well.

One or two hands aside, the gun seems to be pretty tall and bulky. I've found I can handle it, but simply holding it in my hand feels like holding a sledge hammer.

When I say "weilding it" I'm not talking about standing in a shooting stance firing at somebody while stationary. I'm talking about ducking for cover, rolling, moving, exchanging gunfire, etc. On the move.

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Depends on the era. In the '50s and early to mid '60s, cops were taught the FBI stance, draw from a crouch and point shoot. Things got a bit more sophisticated after that, draw to a 2 handed grip, use an Isocoles stance, put the front sight on the target and fire. Courses were still minimalistic, firing from the 5, 10, 15, and 25 yard lines. In the '80s, we started practicing more practical use, tacticalish situations, hostage, draw and fire, move and fire, reloads, firing from barricades, etc. Lots of LE were moving to semiautos in the '80s, and the practical use of a revolver faded away.

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Even older, even crankier....

"I'm talking about ducking for cover, rolling, moving, exchanging gunfire, etc. On the move."

I think someone has been watching Lethal Weapon to much. Not trying to be a smart butt but that is the movies. In the real world, you want to use both hands.

If you want to hit something, use both hands. If for some physical reason you cant then get a smaller revolver like a K frame.

As was said above. Using both hands gives you much better second shots and if someone trys to grab it, it will give you more control of it.

If you train with it, you get used to it. I carried a 4" M28 when in uniform and on those rare occasions when I had to use something else (like my wife's M67) I felt unbalanced. As Robert Duval says in Open Range I like a firearm with a little heft.

I found magna grips and a Tyler T-grip or one of the Hogue/Mustang/Pachmyer rubber finger groove grips to afford much better purchase and control than the S&W target on any N-Frame.

We trained with the Weaver stance but also strong hand and weak hand unsupported. You appreciate that when your other hand is on the cuffs of a rowdy prisoner when his buddies show up - or you just mashed your strong hand in an overhead door on a prowler call. We also trained for night shooting holding the flashlight in the off hand as far above and away from the body as possible to avoid making our center of mass a target. Plenty of good reasons to learn to shoot one-handed.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

Nothing to do with Bruce Willis or Mel Gibson.
Go check out Ed McGivern's Fast & Fancy Shooting. The chapter on Police Officer Training, (which was later, I believe, adopted by J. Edgar Hoover's FBI) devouts much thought and detail to learning to shoot one handed, shooting on the ground, rolling, on your stomach, on your back, kneeling down, shooting on the run, shooting from a moving vehicle. Pretty sophisticated.
I really don't want this to get in to a one hand vs. two hand argument. I'm aware that two hands can, as a rule, make shooting more accurate just as having the gun rest on a sand bag in SA can make it even more accurate. I'm aware of what most LEO trainers suggest today. I do well using weaver stance and often do use it in practice. That said, the man who taught me to shoot taught me "it's a handgun, not a handsgun. If you can learn to shoot good with one hand, you can do all the better with two if you need to." (I've found this to be very true advice)

While it doesn't happen in most gunfights, there are such things from time to time as situations where a lot of stuff is going to be thrown your way and you need to duck, be on the move and return fire. (Just ask the men of the LAPD that were involved in the North Hollywood shootout)

Normally, for defense CC purposes, I carry a .38 Special service revolver. A Colt Official Police, a S&W M-15 or even a Colt Detective Special. Sometimes a Colt Python. Occasionally I'll carry a 1911 or a 9mm Sig 226 Semi Auto.

The 6 inch Highway Patrolman has impressive strength, a good reputation, is an excellent shooter and is quite powerful with it's .357 Magnum cartridge and a heavy frame to cut down on sharp recoil. Makes a great woods carry gun. I can draw and point shoot it pretty fast. I can even draw in weaver stance and nail something with it.

I've heard this quote before and it is silly. You train to hit what you are shooting at, effectively, quickly, and with follow-up shots. Two hands are almost universally better than one. Also, you use a handgun to fight your way to your rifle or shotgun.

As for one handed control of an N-Frame, grip contour and hand size each play a role. The target stocks are useable for me with one hand, but I can palm a basketball. My wife, not so much.

I do like McGivern's book...great man he was.

IMHO shooting one-handed is when you have plenty of time to shoot and aren't moving.

When your shots need to count, use both hands.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

My Dad was trained in the FBI to draw and shoot from the hip without aiming. He was as good of a hip shooter as I am using the Weaver stance.

As for moving, the last time we shot together, he was about 70 and used a WWI 1911. Hip shooting the .45, he got a beer can dancing and even hit it when it bounced in the air. So in point shooting and hip shooting, movement is not an issue

That kids is known as P.C. LEO's USED to be hired because they could handle themselves with most street punks/big guys.

City councils decided we need more 5' 2" 95 pound LEO's that couldn't handle the gun, or the job, but they filled their quota's.

^ A lot to be said for this.

That's a matter of opinion. But there are a lot of shooters and LEOs past and present who would disagree with you. (the writer of the above said book that you and I both like for instance.

Point shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There is still a legitimate school of thought for the other even though it's not generally embraced by police today.
FBI Agent - Jelly Bryce

As said, I do pretty good with one handed shooting and I've amazed myself at just how good I can be if I relax away from one handed and/or point shooting into two handed weaver stance.

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Now there's a pair. "It's ok fellers, I'm on your side!"

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Halfway and one more step

There is no secret. If you are physically not able, then get a smaller gun. That said, one handed shooting has no place in combat apart from an injured "other arm," or unless you are so close that it is necessary that you not hold the weapon up for fear of it being grabbed from you. This has been well known since Jeff Cooper started writing about and teaching the "modern technique" in the 1950s. One handed, or point shooting, has its place, and it is another skill in the toolbox, but if you have the space and the extra tenth of a second that it takes to get the pistol from hip to eye level when moving at full speed, by all means do so and get that quick visual index. Anyone can learn to shoot much quicker and with a lesser expenditure of ammo by flash sight picture or visual index or whatever your particular guru calls it. The skills of Jelly Bryce and Bill Jordan are great, if you have 100,000 rounds of ammo to use to learn true point shooting - remember - we are not talking about hitting a B27 from the hip. Bill Jordan could hit an aspirin pill from the hip. It takes many thousands, if not more, rounds to get that good. I would submit that most people could not afford to practice that much without getting lots of free ammo from some source. To me, it is simple. Why handicap yourself with one hand if you can use two? Why handicap yourself with no sights if you can get a flash sight picture or a quick visual index?

Psychological... AND that's when men were men! None of these plastic sissy pistols in those days! LOL!

My first duty gun was a Model 28 4". Never had a problem handling it or shooting effectively with it.

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Dave Frost

Just because Jeff Cooper said it doesn't mean it settles the argument. He was exceptional in his generation and, as already illustrated, many of his contemporaries would disagree with him. And old school thought still has it's followers even today.

As in politics, progressives tend to think that they know more than everybody that came before them and nobody before them knew anything. The reality is that the lack of understanding is usually the progressive's problem rather than the people they are looking down their nose at. Holding a handgun with two hands seems the easiest, most accurate and most obvious way to shoot at a target. So how come nobody before the late 60s or early 70s dating all the way back to gentlemen using dueling pistols in the 1700s could figure this out? Answer: they weren't stupid, they knew two hands could naturally be more accurate. But maybe they understood something that modern progressives don't.

I'm not saying shooting with two hands is bad per se, but one handed shooting should not be so easily dismissed out of hand so flippantly.

You don't have to top, match or even come close to Bill Jordan in skill and accuracy in order to shoot and perform reasonably well.

Progressives don't shoot with either hand.

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Halfway and one more step

First I'm taken to task because of a picture of "a real cop" from a TV show shooting a 6" M28 with one hand. Then I'm called a "progressive" because I taught my students (LEO & civilian) to use 2 hands.

Got a flash for you Sonny. I was a real cop and I used 2 hands. Second flash...I'm about a far from progressive as a person can get.

When I was the chief firearms instructor for my 400 man department our training was innovative and advanced enough that other departments sent people to train with us, to include State, Local and even Federal officers. I can't tell you how many times some hot shot (in his mind only) told me he only shot from the hip and didn't use the sights because that was the way he was taught, by some of those same folks you seem so fond of no doubt. When I put them through the high stress, realistic with tight time limit training exercises we were using they usually missed...a lot. I didn't just teach what Jeff Cooper told me in December of 1977, when I graduated from Gunsite with an Expert certificate at the top of my class. I taught what the experience of Cooper and others like him had learned worked best. It wasn't a fad, it was successful.

Enough insults from the peanut gallery, I'm done with this thread.

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

deleted-deleted

There is a huge difference between theory and reality. Real world says use both hands unless you for some reason can't. A good friend was drawn down on by a bad guy back in the 80s. He drew and fired with one hand, missing four of six shots. He did get the bad guy, but it was pure luck no innocent bystanders were struck.

Be good, not lucky.......shoot with both hands. Point shooting is folly. That is not an opinion, that is fact. I am not an exhibition shooter, I won't be playing if, God forbid, I have to draws my weapon on another person. My intent will be to kill them, not prove what a good shot I am with one hand.

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Even older, even crankier....

Fighting with a revolver is a science of its own. An excellent demonstration is here -

Naked Gun 2 1/2 - Gun Fight - YouTube

I dont think that lawmen from that era were as concerned with small differences in equipment . Certainly not to the point that we are now. They trained with what they were issued, or they bought reliable and useable approved handguns on their own.

Sure a 28 might be bigger in some respects, but they probably found they could get the job done and they felt comfortable with its ability if they had to use it. And if they truly needed something different there were options then. It was probably much easier in those days to change personal equipment with a few approvals , or only just one. It did not take the endless process which may be required today .

My Uncle was a county Sheriff for 25 years . I think he had one or even two handguns . I think the deputies had about the same. They all had a pump shotgun in the car or maybe a little bit more when the times called for it. But overall I dont think they worried about it too much .

I see the same thing on the autos in the various forums. Questions like " which handgun would you take in to battle ." First off in the Marine Corps , there is no vote. You dont select the gear unless you are wearing stars . You use what you are issued . More than that they dont worry too much over what handgun they issue. Battles are fought with crew weapons . The scenario of what happens if we get down to fighting with handguns never comes up. They dont even want to begin to think about how bad that is going to be. A radio is much more important to them in recent times and on todays battlefield.

wow, some folks seem a bit sensitive and feel threatened when challenged or contradicted.

I was using the word "progressive" not in a political sense but in a allegorical sense. A mindset. New means better and right and old means wrong and silly. I wasn't calling anybody a leftist or anything like that.

And I wasn't taking anybody to task over a picture. Just using the picture to illustrate the handling of a said weapon. A tv show, yes, but one that commonly uses real police footage in opening footage for realistic purposes.

No offense intended.

Doug, as a lifelong very far left "progresssive" who thinks President Obama is far too conservative, and an Army vet and life long shooter, use 2 hands...if you had 3, you should use all 3.

The guy who taught you that stuff about a "handsgun" is full of **** and that "philosophy" is dangerous...it ain't about STYLE, it's about effect.

Revolvers were ALL THAT EXISTED in police use at the time, and the N frame Smith was the Cadillac of police revolvers...still is a damn good choice if you have a background in shooting revolvers...my choice is a 21-4, which is right here next to my (liberal) iMac.

FWIW, at one time the PA State Troopers carried - and LOVED - a 6" stainless Ruger Security Six. I'm sure just the sight of that cannon had a profound effect on some BG's, and I have no doubt it was an effective weapon.

Practice.

mark

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Liberals made the USA

I guess it is. HA HA. Because now that I've been handling it for two days working in the woods....it feels fine. Also, prior to my strapping it on, I had been carrying a Sig 226 9mm for like a week. Compared to that, the highway patrolman feels like a sledgehammer.
Likewise, I'll carry my Detective Special for a while and suddenly pick up my M-15 or OP and they will feel like sledge hammers for a while. If I picked up my OP right now after having handled the Highway Patrolman, it would feel light as a feather.

Take a powerful lot of argument to convince me of that. With all due respect, I have a much higher respect for said guy than anybody here. No offense in that, it's just a fact. I've known them all my life and they have been handling guns all their life.

Also, as said, I've found that statement to be quite true. It is indeed about effect and I've found the statement and practice to be quite effective. Also, as illustrated, little old me are not the only ones believe this as there are men then and now with good reputations that feel different and I have found that very enlightening as well.

Best plan for me was getting pistol out there and in action one handed or not and with follow up shots get a second hand on it and keep firing until the pistol is extended and some type of sighting achieved. I guess this is some combination of training.....but it's a good habit developed over thousands of rounds. And I was always so hyped up I couldn't tell you if it was an 'N' frame, 'Z' frame, or 'ABC' frame.

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ShooterScooter.

If you were to give me a choice over our current duty guns in our line up and a 4-inch Model 28 (or my 3 1/2 inch Model 27) I would take one of those N frame revolvers any day of the week. A buddy and former boss of mine who was a cop in one of the local towns here and is about 5'6 and 200 pounds carried a 4-inch Model 28 when he was on the force and he loved the thing. He preferred it to the Model 19 simply because he liked the fact that the gun balanced better in his hands versus the K frames. Myself I have always liked the big N-frames and when the weather is cooler I carry my Model 27 quite a bit. Shooting one handed is good, two handed is better. Not all of us can shoot like Bill Jordan or D.A. Bryce, those two men shot better than most of us can imagine to. I have tried hip shooting and have gotten pretty good at it, but that's a matter of necessity more than desire. I know the current school of thought now in some LEO training is a little of one handed shooting and a lot of two handed. To me there is a great benefit in LEO's learning some one handed shooting because we are almost always on the defensive, just as anyone would be in a defensive shooting. Someone else has done something aggressive, pulled a knife, holding a hammer or worst case, they have gone for their gun first. One thing though that Bill Jordan was very keen on and he mentions in "No Second Place Winner" is that speed is fine, but accuracy is final. I always found that to me the Model 28 and the Model 27 shoot so well with hot .357 loads because of the gun's weight and balance that accuracy with follow up shots is much better than smaller K frames and that is why so many cops liked them even after the Model 19 first came out. I have had both and I did carry my Model 19 in a lot of armed guard work in some pretty interesting places and while I liked it, I also had a 4-inch Model 28 at the time and I really the way that gun rode along.
It's again a matter of what gun does the best for you. I doubt you will see too many LEO's know in service that have carried a Model 28. Those guys have retired for the most part, but their expertise is valuable still. Maybe if I can run into one of our part timers today I'll ask him, he was an instructor back in the late 80's up here and the departments were all still using wheelguns then, see what he thought of the Model 28.

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Vaya con Dios

From day one in LE I carried N-frame S&Ws and never found them unwieldy...

As to one-handed vs. two handed shooting, within 10 yards where most gunfights occur there doesn't seem to be much difference in ability to hit nor the speed of the shot(s). I just ran 48 shooters through some tactical shooting drills last weekend and two of the exercises were one-handed shooting with both strong hand and support hand. Accuracy/speed is generally lower with the support hand only mainly due to lack of practice. Sometimes I'll run a whole session with nothing but weak hand shooting just to do a tune up on people.

Hip shooting vs. point shooting vs. flash sight picture vs. aimed fire is another matter however.

Since we are talking about LE training and shooting ability, there is nothing to crow about. Back in the 1970s and 80s the average hit rate was 29% with an average of 2.5 shots per engagement. The last statistics I saw were from about 10 years ago where the hit rate had dropped to 19% but the number of rounds fired increased to 7.5. Anyone have any clue what the current ones are?

In 1983 I was working for Dallas PD. There was a series of articles in the Dallas Morning News about police shootings in the top 10 cities. We averaged 80+- gunfights a year. I think in 1983 it was 86. We also had a 85% hit rate. None of the other cities compared (LA, Chicago, NYC, Detroit...) had over a 30%. When I joined the department in 1977 it was all sighted shooting. About 1980 the whole department was taught point shooting...our hit rate then really started climbing.

Point shooting as taught by Dallas was not "hip" shooting as shown in Bill Jordan's Book NO SECOND PLACE WINNER. The gun was about at chest height vs. waist height and was done with two hands. As stated above and I 101% agree "hip" shooting takes tens of thousands of rounds to master....not so with "point" shooting.

Hip shooting is for handshaking distances only. If the adversary is beyond gun grabbing range, get a full extension, "point" toward the target and break the shot as the arms lock onto the target. I've also found that getting the gun all the way to shoulder height with the focus on the target further increases hit probability.

I usually teach the point shooting lesson in the NRA Personal Protection in the Home course. We tape up the sights with duct tape. The target area is a 8.5x11" piece of paper. Starting at 3 yards we work back to 10 yards....and it is rare to have someone miss the paper once they have the technique down.

Point shooting is extremely important to learn for one major reason..in a gunfight 99% of the shooters NEVER SEE THEIR SIGHTS. I've talked to close to 100 officers who have been in gun fights and not a one remembered seeing their sights and most said they never used their sights. Go over to YouTube or LiveLeak and find gunfight and robbery videos....watch where the gun is compared to the line of sight...many times it is nowhere even close.

This is why "fit" is so important when selecting a combat handgun...if it doesn't point where you look your hit probability goes way down. If you look on page 97 of NO SECOND PLACE WINNER it shows the ideal way a gun should fit the hand. One should be able to draw a line from the front sight through the rear sight straight down through the center of the web of the hand through the wrist bone all the way to the elbow. Anything else is not going to point where you look. It is kinda like parallax in a scope. The further one is out of adjustment the further the shot is going to strike from the crosshair.

After 10 yards flash sight picture is going to increase hit probability and after 15 one better be practicing all the shooting fundamentals of sight picture, trigger squeeze and followthrough or a miss is just about guarantied. But under 10 yards you could file the sights off of guns and increase ones hit probability with "proper" training...

Go ahead...flame me...I'm used to it....Bob

Anthony Weiner is advertising for interns. This could be a fantastic opportunity for a liberal shooting enthusiast to correct the anti 2nd Amendment attitude that seems to be prevalent in the liberal side of our country.

It takes a backbone and a funnybone.

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Halfway and one more step

No flame here, Capt. Fairbairn and Capt. Sykes established this as well.

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Halfway and one more step

whenever possible....just use two hands

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

The old school thinking that had the FBI and others teaching one handed, often hip level, point shooting was based on what was believed to be sound knowledge at the time. Much of that came about 70 - 80 years ago, and people didn't know what they didn't know. Cooper and his friends who started the Leatherslap group in the 50s were treated as heretics for a long time, but their experimentation did a lot of good.

Read Jim Cirillo's books and fight descriptions, and you'll see what well done aimed fire means. Yes, an N frame one handed is a PITA unless you train for it a lot. Yes, it can be used effectively. No, it is not anywhere near as good as the proper use of two hands. I rarely shoot slowly and use precise sight pictures in training, although sometimes I do it for the skill development. Most of the time I get that big bright front sight (or the red dot of my Aimpoint on a long gun) on the target area and go to town.

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NHI, 10-8.

Yeah..........as others have said, use two hands. I don't know of ANY law enforcement agency that encourages the use of one hand. That said, our state mandated course of fire does include some one handed strings of fire. They are, however, designed to be reactionary in nature or to simulate the strong hand disabled.

If you can use both hands......use both hands.

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

I'm late to the party, but I know this, selling my Model 28 was my biggest revolver regret of all time.

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I believe in the wadcutter.

One advantage that revolvers have and autos do not: grips. They do make a huge difference.

And that said, the K/L frame is smaller & may be easier for many folks.

As posted already, with autoloaders becoming the tactical favorite, much of the revolver knowledge is not being taught anymore. Part of that info are all the folks who carried multiple revolvers (larger than the N frame) into battle before S&W N frames were developed.

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July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

I carried a N-frame, a K-frame, and yes, even a J-frame in LEO career. The weight of any of them was not a bother when firing or being carried in the hand. I was the weight of them in the holster that bothered me. My favorite carry gun while in uniform was a Model 13, but that was the lesser evil for my back that spent too many hours in the patrol car and still punishes me to this day. My best shooter was the 5 inch Model 27 that I carried for a while. When either was in my hand, I really didn't know the difference, as the adrenaline was flowing pretty good.

When stuff gets tight, there's a whole bunch of things that you don't pay attention to and weapon size is one of them.

If you can't wield a Model 28 in a bad situation, you better buy some weights and start working out, and eating your Wheaties.

I'm not LEO, but here's my take. I shoot Bullseye all winter -- by definition it is all one handed shooting. So when Action Pistol starts in the spring, it does not feel unusual to shoot one handed. If it's easier to shoot a scenario one handed, I will. I carry a 4" 629 when I am in the woods, so if I know that a match it somewhat revolver friendly, I will shoot it with loads just under Winchester Silvertips -- that is 200 gr at 1200 fps. I don't win any matches that way, but I feel it's good training for me. Unless there are some long shots set up, I shoot double action. So to make a long story short, N frames work and can be handled one handed with success.

Umm....are you telling us there are people out there that used to carry, say, a S&W 500 or a Ruger Redhawk into action??

Amen. I was never encouraged to use one hand, but I still believe that "when your life depends on it" is a poor time to try it for the first time, just as learning to clear a jam in a semi-auto is normal training today. If you don't practice the worst case in a controlled environment, you may not survive the first lesson.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

I'm thinking back when the Highway Patrolman was so named , (mid-50s) , the highway patrol meant long and desolate roads. A highway patrolman was probably expected to handle a lot of 'problems' without using his sidearm. I'm sure many, if not most departments , unchained by todays quotas and political correctness , picked troopers that were big , strong and yes , physically intimidating.

And the S&W HP was a big and intimidating revolver!

No, I think he's saying that long ago people used to carry two or more Colt Dragoons into action.

Referring to the original poster, N frame revolvers are clearly better controlled with two hands. I submit, the time difference from leather to point shooting (one hand) and leather to a Weaver/isosceles is insignificant when accuracy is taken into account. I carried a Model 29 4 inch for many years in a Jordan high rise on duty with my So Cal agency. Please, I was not being a macho man, I did so because I could, wanted the advantage of a big bore, and practiced frequently to maintain the control and accuracy I felt confident with. No one liked standing next to me at the range or qual shoots, but I had no issues with the recoil and carrying it on my hip. It is all in what you work with regularly, and the desire you have to do so. Most anyone can do it, provided they have the motivation.
That being said, I imagine it is psychological. But that is true with everything. My father told me that training during WWII, the troops hated the 1911. They claimed it jammed regularly, was grossly in accurate, and burdensome to carry. Today, we can only chuckle at those comments, knowing them to be incorrect. Why? Training and desire. Of course, isn't that true of everything in life?

Wow. An interesting thread, to say the least.

While my duty gun is another S&W, namely an M&P 9mm that holds lots of rounds and it really light and attaches a light and all that cool stuff, I feel that I've done well with other guns. Before I became a cop, I carried a full-sized, steel-framed, railed 1911. It was heavy and it worked great. This year, I qualified better than most of the shooters in my agency with one of my off-duty guns: a heavy N frame 625. I didn't find it the slightest bit heavy or unwieldy.

I'm probably larger than most of the shooters here, but I don't think I'm a giant. It just seems to be a matter of what shooters practice and are comfortable with.