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11-14-2017, 06:06 PM
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FBI agent's gun
Through a fortunate trade with a good forum friend, I came into possession of this very nice Model 19-4. It was the Bureau-approved, personally-owned weapon of an agent who retired before I came into the Bureau, and has since passed on. It serves as a good example of a gun used by a gun-savvy agent who is still greatly respected in the Bureau - a hump agent.
In Bureau parlance, a hump agent is a guy who worked (humped) cases his entire career. Many agents only work cases for a short time before moving up the supervisory chain, or into a specialty that doesn't necessarily require contact with the criminal element. It was always one of the great mysteries of the Bureau to me that a person would go through all the trouble of becoming an agent, and then basically stop doing agent stuff at the first opportunity. I have a friend who says its so they can walk from their car to the house with their coat off and impress the neighbors, but not have to deal with dead people and informants and smelly criminals and court. Maybe that's it.
I was a hump agent for 25 years, and so was the owner of this gun. We also trod the same ground - Indian Country. He was in Gallup when he bought this gun, working the same Navajo rez I did.
He was also the case agent on this caper:
Desperate for a Child : On a Muggy Summer Day, Darci Pierce Decided She Would Kill to Have a Baby - latimes
Enough blather, here's the gun:
He bought it for $202.20 at a gun shop in Gallup on 10/10/79. This was the midpoint of his career. He shipped it off to the gunvault at Quantico per Bureau regulations, where it was inspected and put onto his POW list.
It being a product of the Bangor Punta era, a few things were done by the vault - they fit a new sear, "adjusted" the double action, corrected a push-off issue, adjusted the strain screw, adjusted the cylinder, and test-fired it. He got it back on 01/21/80.
He must not have been happy, because it was back at the vault in May of the same year. This time they fit a new hammer, fit a new combat (smooth) trigger, adjusted the strain screw again, and test-fired it. He had it back on the 28th.
All was ducky until 02 of 1989, when it was back at the vault. I suspect this is right before he retired. It was common practice to send your POWs back to Quantico the year you retired, just to have them checked over and freshened up. This time they cleaned lead build-up from the barrel and forcing cone, chamfered the forcing cone, installed new exterior guide pins (you got me), installed a new locking bolt, and test fired it. He had it back on 2/22/89.
The gun was sold with target stocks, which are still in the box. Like many agents, he preferred magnas and a grip adapter. Usually you see the Pachmayr adapter, because they sold them for a few bucks in the little PX at the Academy. This one has a Tyler-T. Black on black sights, no red ramp or white outline.
The end label is properly upside-down. I have no idea what the SW-232 means. If you know, please let me know.
The action is a joy. Not particularly light, but very smooth. The timing is perfect.
I took it to the range today. All I had ready to go was a box of GI M-41 ball from 1966 and some Fiocchi 148 grain JHP. It shot well, and put the Fiocchi pretty close to the point of aim at 50 feet. There are five shots in the group - three are bunched together.
It means a lot to me that a forum member made a great effort to get this revolver to me, though I'm sure he could have gotten a better deal elsewhere.
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Last edited by sigp220.45; 11-14-2017 at 09:24 PM.
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11-14-2017, 06:16 PM
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Awesome post, pleasure to have a "peek" at your world. More of a general question, why would folks opt for magna's with a Tyler-T/grip adapter when, at least in my mind, that combo produces a profile much akin to target stocks?
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11-14-2017, 06:19 PM
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Nice story along with a fine specimen of the Combat Magnum.
I'm thinking that during the pre-retirement tuneup, it was extractor pins that were replaced.
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11-14-2017, 06:30 PM
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Beauty.
Yes, the trigger action you want is smooth, but not light. It is a serious mistake to install lightweight springs in a pistol or revolver, even just for a range gun. If someone is having trouble pulling a trigger, they probably need to work out just a little don't you think, rather than lightening the springs. JMHO.
Funny anecdote; I have a cousin who is a bear of a man, and he is always "fussing" (for lack of the proper term) with light weight triggers, getting inconsistent ignition, hair triggers, push-off, etc.
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11-14-2017, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricR
Awesome post, pleasure to have a "peek" at your world. More of a general question, why would folks opt for magna's with a Tyler-T/grip adapter when, at least in my mind, that combo produces a profile much akin to target stocks?
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It makes for a shorter grip, for sure, since the targets extend down past the bottom of the grip frame. The magna/Tyler combo feels better to me because it is thicker and the top and narrow at the bottom, and on my hand the fingers are longer at the top and shorter at the bottom. It just fits me better.
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11-14-2017, 06:47 PM
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Thanks for sharing!!!
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11-14-2017, 06:47 PM
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Funny they "adjusted" the strain screw. Strain screws have 1 setting, fully tightened. I'm surprised a LE agency would fiddle with it.
Enviable gun and a great history.
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11-14-2017, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlHunt
Funny they "adjusted" the strain screw. Strain screws have 1 setting, fully tightened. I'm surprised a LE agency would fiddle with it.
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I suspect they adjusted it by cranking it in. It is fully tightened.
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11-14-2017, 06:59 PM
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I think I can clear up the mystery of the "installed new exterior guide pins (you got me)."
The smith installed new extractor pins (the smith wrote the words "installed new ext. guide pins), which sometimes wound up "missing" from under the S&W revolver extractor (ejector, if memory serves, was the company name for that star shaped thing).
Rich
Formerly a sgt. and lt. at the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section
My S&W 19. Similar vintage. Soon figured out the original 2 1/2" barrel didn't make any sense (but looked sexy!), and had a dept smith replace it with a 4" version.
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
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11-14-2017, 07:00 PM
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Sometimes in the history of a firearm the perfect person comes along who can truly appreciate and relate to a previous owner.
It is in good hands!
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11-14-2017, 07:01 PM
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Great story and fab pictures! Makes me envious - I have a 4-in M19 but it is a much later version and has no story ...  . I live prolly six miles from Quantico - I wonder if Lester Limerick is still around ...
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11-14-2017, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricR
.... More of a general question, why would folks opt for magna's with a Tyler-T/grip adapter when, at least in my mind, that combo produces a profile much akin to target stocks?
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Indeed, as sigp220.45 says in the post above, the “problem” with target stocks is that they get longer and fatter and flare out at the bottom just as the fingers get shorter. The Tyler and other adapters maintain the slim profile and length of the original while adding bulk where you need it.
I shudder now to admit it, but in my younger foolish days when I saw S&W guns simply as tools I once acquired a beat-up ex-police Model 66 with target stocks. I found them too bulky and uncomfortable, so I tried to ... ouch ... saw them off with a hacksaw flush to the frame butt. That didn’t turn out so hot, so I threw them away and bought some Uncle Mike’s.  .
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11-14-2017, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45
. . . but not have to deal with smelly criminals and court.
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Are you talking about the criminal defense lawyers? Or the accused?!!
GREAT POST! Thank you so much for going to the trouble of posting all of this. Very interesting.
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11-14-2017, 07:10 PM
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Many Thanks
Really great story and photos. Thanks for sharing. Your post is one in which we need more than one "like" button.
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11-14-2017, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJelly
I live prolly six miles from Quantico - I wonder if Lester Limerick is still around ...
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http://www.svsu.edu/library/archives...FP067_25aa.pdf
He's shooting a Bu-gun in this old article.
There are a TON of mistakes in this article, so please don't take it as gospel.
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Last edited by sigp220.45; 11-14-2017 at 07:48 PM.
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11-14-2017, 07:15 PM
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Thank you for sharing this weapon with us. I fully understand your desire to own this revolver and know its history. Its nice to know it has a "home" now. Enjoy.
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11-14-2017, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45
It makes for a shorter grip, for sure, since the targets extend down past the bottom of the grip frame. The magna/Tyler combo feels better to me because it is thicker and the top and narrow at the bottom, and on my hand the fingers are longer at the top and shorter at the bottom. It just fits me better.
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Got it. Makes sense, thanks.
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11-14-2017, 07:42 PM
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Great story, thanks for sharing. hardcase60
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11-14-2017, 07:46 PM
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I wasn't a hump agent but I do have a Combat Magnum 19-4 that I got
new back in the 70s.
Here's a photo with a few favorite holsters for it:
Left to right:
Left side of M19 with Herrett's Jordan grips and a gold bead McGivern front sight.
Hume Jordan Border Patrol holster.
Oliver Ball black floral with "dog ear" holster.
Make Barranti's Ranger Brill style holster with "dog ear"
Seventrees Combat Speed Scabbard
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Last edited by crazyphil; 11-14-2017 at 09:43 PM.
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11-14-2017, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45
It makes for a shorter grip, for sure, since the targets extend down past the bottom of the grip frame. The magna/Tyler combo feels better to me because it is thicker and the top and narrow at the bottom, and on my hand the fingers are longer at the top and shorter at the bottom. It just fits me better.
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Me too
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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11-14-2017, 08:06 PM
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sigp220.45:
Everyone gets a like on this thread. That is a great story, and I'm so glad you ended up with this wonderful firearm. What a great story. During my years in law enforcement, (1975-1997), I carried a model 66, and I too did just what this Agent did, removed and kept the target stocks, and put on a set of stocks just like yours, from a contemporary model 10, and a Tyler T Grip just like yours. And greatly preferred this combination, and still do to this day.
I also believe that especially on a revolver which serves to protect your and others lives, that it is a mistake to lighten the trigger pull by clipping coils, and replacing springs. The ideal pull is somewhat heavy, but smooth. Reliability is paramount.
Edit: Going back over your post, I see something I really like, and that is the installation of the smooth trigger. As someone who shot thousands of rounds, I really disliked the serrated triggers, and have come to appreciate the smooth triggers such as the one on your 19.
But I mainly want to congratulate you in acquiring this great package.
Best Regards, Les
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Last edited by les.b; 11-14-2017 at 08:14 PM.
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11-14-2017, 08:26 PM
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Thanks much for the story and pics. ... and glad you ended up with the gun.
Jerry
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11-14-2017, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by federali
Really great story and photos. Thanks for sharing. Your post is one in which we need more than one "like" button.
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Couldn't agree more. I love stories like that about guns used by working cops. The, "humps", of the world mean a lot to me. Don't know how this one could be better documented. Awesome stuff!
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11-14-2017, 09:39 PM
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With regard to the stocks, these have the rounded edges that S&W called "plainclothes" grips to avoid wear on coat linings.
Contrast these M-10 grips with sq. edged ones for the M-15. You'll see the difference.
The member who asked that question about stocks needs to hold a gun like this and one with the original target stocks and imagine wearing that gun as an agent.
Last edited by Texas Star; 11-14-2017 at 09:41 PM.
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11-14-2017, 09:48 PM
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Outstanding OP! Thanks for the pictures of the M19 and all the documentation!!
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11-14-2017, 10:05 PM
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11-14-2017, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dscampbell
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And yours has a black adaptor to match the gun's finish.
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11-14-2017, 11:39 PM
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How can a Smith model 19 get any cooler than that....
Great revolver Sig...
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11-15-2017, 12:00 AM
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This is a really great post. I'm glad to see a revolver like that go to someone who appreciates it's history. Two of the guns that I highly value came from my old partner. He gave me the guns he carried during his 25 years with the State Police, mostly because he thought I would appreciate them more than most people. I suspect that the original owner of that Model 19 would appreciate it going to another agent who can appreciate it.
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11-15-2017, 12:03 AM
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Nice
Sometimes, things are just meant to be. Enjoy it. It's a beauty!
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11-15-2017, 12:42 AM
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Lester Limerick, the gunsmith (Chief Gunsmith) identified in your paperwork is mentioned / pictured in this article (last page): http://www.svsu.edu/library/archives...FP067_25aa.pdf
Last edited by NCBeagle; 11-15-2017 at 12:44 AM.
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11-15-2017, 01:05 AM
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I think Fate decreed that this M19 should go to another hump agent, and decided you were the most worthy recipient.
I'll bet the previous owner agrees.
Fascinating post, with great photos. Thanks.
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11-15-2017, 06:04 AM
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Great story
Cory
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11-15-2017, 07:31 AM
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Love the gun , love story behind the gun , the FBI " hump agents" guys you don't see on the TV but your service is appreciated by the regular folk who know you are there in the background keeping us safe .Thanks.
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11-15-2017, 07:52 AM
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Have used the grip adaptors for years w/ magna grips on 2 1/2 inch 19s and 66s........
In the 80s when wood target grips could be had for $5-10 in LGSs.....I would cut (IIRC) 3/8 inch off the bottom leaving just a ''sliver" of wood covering the bottom of the grip frame; and rounded the edge.....I found it to be a better / much less bulky grip.
Today on 4-6 inch guns I tend to use Spegel extended boot grips.
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11-15-2017, 08:36 AM
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Great post and story. Love the provenance of this gun, and the really good photographs.
Things like this are what this forum is all about for me.
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11-15-2017, 09:43 AM
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Would that smooth trigger have come from a 19-5, or were they available earlier?
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11-15-2017, 01:26 PM
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Sig, great post! The bride enjoyed it immensely. She said to tell you she's one of those agents who decided to go the leadership route and get away from the common folk smelly criminals. She's a Unit Chief at HQs working counter proliferation and funny thing is, the criminals she goes after now may not smell bad, but they do a lot of damage unchecked. 
Regards
Chuck and Eliza
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Rangers LTW!
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11-15-2017, 01:30 PM
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Great story, well told and a great gun. Thumbs up!
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11-15-2017, 01:41 PM
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Great revolver. I had the fortune to work with two hump agents at our local resident agency before they retired, one a long time family friend. They are a breed apart from other agents that I know . . .
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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .
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11-16-2017, 10:25 AM
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Great story and special acquisition....
And, now I learned something - without even realizing it, I was a 'hump detective' for the last half of my years in LE. No real rank, almost every day in the trenches with an ever-increasing caseload.
Thanks for sharing.
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Ret'd LEO
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11-17-2017, 09:26 PM
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FBI agent's gun
Last edited by NCBeagle; 11-17-2017 at 09:34 PM.
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11-17-2017, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawandorder
Sometimes in the history of a firearm the perfect person comes along who can truly appreciate and relate to a previous owner.
It is in good hands!
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This is the Truth! Sometimes the right guns find you. I recently had one of those experiences.
Thank you for sharing! Awesome revolver and a great history!
Last edited by ShivasIrons; 11-17-2017 at 10:43 PM.
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11-17-2017, 10:34 PM
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I was a street cop for 30 years and knew my share of officers who got into an admin assignment first chance they got and never dealt w/a bad guy after that. Every one of them lost my respect, not that that means much, but I never had much use for anyone who played the system while pretending to be a real police officer. Great story about the FBI hump agent and his gun; thank G-d for “real” cops.
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Last edited by Old cop; 11-17-2017 at 10:37 PM.
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11-17-2017, 11:58 PM
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NCBeagle, what kind of stocks are those? Look great on that gun.
Cory
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Cory
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11-18-2017, 12:37 AM
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Now that is what I like to see, T grip and all. My collecting interests lean towards carry guns and especially guns that were owned and carried by other cops from another era that I could see myself using then or even now. One size fits all dept. issued guns just don`t have that same appeal to me (for duty or for collecting). I have several cool pieces in my collection with a lot of carry wear that are of a model and barrel length that leads me to believe they were likely LEO guns, but I usually just have to imagine what their story is. I love the story and documentation you have for the model 19. thanks for showing it to us!
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11-18-2017, 03:42 AM
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Very nice!
I wonder how many of today's agents could master such an elegant and advanced weapon?
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