Texas Star
US Veteran
I think you're just citing his load for the .44 Special. Because this topic is about the .357 Combat Magnum, you'll confuse readers.
Well, you can't blame Skeeter Skelton for trying!
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I think you're just citing his load for the .44 Special. Because this topic is about the .357 Combat Magnum, you'll confuse readers.
Texas Star
US Veteran
The man who signed that letter was Fred Miller. I had a letter from him about a year later, relating to whether .38-44 ammo could be safely fired in a Model 10 .38.
He confirmed it could be used, but recoil would be heavy and wear on the gun much increased if much of that hotter load was fired. He earnestly advised getting a .38-44 gun or a .357 Magnum if I meant to shoot much .38-44 Hi-Speed ammo.
Mr. Miller was at S&W for many decades. I've seen references here to him being there at least as far back as the 1940's.
Skeeter's being at, Gunsport also interested me. I read his articles there, and I also published some articles at that title.
It was always hard to get the editors to pay in a timely manner. I think they still owed Skelton and others money when the magazine folded. B.R. Hughes was better known as a knife writer, but he was Shotgun Editor at, Gunsport, too.
He confirmed it could be used, but recoil would be heavy and wear on the gun much increased if much of that hotter load was fired. He earnestly advised getting a .38-44 gun or a .357 Magnum if I meant to shoot much .38-44 Hi-Speed ammo.
Mr. Miller was at S&W for many decades. I've seen references here to him being there at least as far back as the 1940's.
Skeeter's being at, Gunsport also interested me. I read his articles there, and I also published some articles at that title.
It was always hard to get the editors to pay in a timely manner. I think they still owed Skelton and others money when the magazine folded. B.R. Hughes was better known as a knife writer, but he was Shotgun Editor at, Gunsport, too.
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usmc2427765
US Veteran
I noticed the letter was dated 1965. I would bet if he asked the same question in 1975, when he was in his prime, they would have moved heaven and earth to make him happy. He was an exceptional writer and I could actually smell the mesquite camp fires when I read his articles.
Yes, that's a good point about Skeeter's writing. He had a skill beyond the basic need of the job.
Has anyone else here read his Dobe Grant stories?
Model 19-2 with a 5-inch barrel made for Bob Loveless the knife maker and shipped on August 16, 1965 (the same date as the letter to Skeeter Skelton). With the exception of the guns made for the FHP in 1969 (see second photo), this is the only 5-inch known.
Bill
Bill
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squidsix
Member
Umm....but.....its....
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
I'm thinking that after all the trouble they went to making this one for LOveless, they just said HELL NO not another one!!Model 19-2 with a 5-inch barrel made for Bob Loveless the knife maker and shipped on August 16, 1965 (the same date as the letter to Skeeter Skelton). With the exception of the guns made for the FHP in 1969 (see second photo), this is the only 5-inch known.
Bill
rockquarry
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The discount has traditionally been dealer price or even below that. S&W (and all the rest) price these guns attractively because they would prefer not to receive the gun back as it is then a used gun. However, I would guess they have a standard plan for disposing of writer returns, like offering steep discounts to employees, etc.
Normal terms industry-wide are 90 day loans, but liberal extensions are often granted. At some point the gun is purchased or returned. Same policy usually applies to scopes, etc.
Texas Star
US Veteran
I don't know who Rockquarry writes for, but he's correct. I bought my M-66-3 from S&W through the PR lady when doing some gunwriting that applied.
One normally must be an accredited gun writer known to the PR person or show a letter from a valid editor assigning a particular story that justifies shipping the gun at that discount or loan rate.
The rate is attractive, but one can often find a good used gun for about the same price.
I do suspect that some firms keep guns for writer loan that have been returned by prior writers. In such cases, it may be possible to work out a better price with the manufacturer.
A famous gun and hunting writer told me that he'd offered to return a rifle that he'd had for an extended time. The manufacturer's president knew him personally and told him to keep the gun. It was far more valuable to the firm being seen in his magazine photos than if sitting in a safe back in the company's offices. But he was a very well known writer with a lot of fans, whose material appeared in the biggest gun magazines.
Most gun scribes don't often get deals like that.
BTW, lest anyone get jealous, gun writing doesn't pay much unless one gets a staff position with a big publisher. I was lucky to get more than $300 for a typical story. I think the most I ever got for a single article was just $750. But if you hit titles like, Field & Stream or,Outdoor Life, the last I checked, many years ago, Field & Stream paid 18 cents per word plus more per published photo. See the current, Writer's Market for present rates. Many magazines, not just gun titles, didn't pay over 5 cents per word. I think a lady whom I knew who wrote for romance/confession magazines didn't always get even that 5 cents a word rate, and she wasn't selling photos as well as text.
On the other hand, being a valid gun writer does let one hang out in the press room at the SHOT show or go on trips where one can meet his favorite scribes. And the manufacturers have hospitality suites where a scribe can get free drinks and snacks. Ruger even hosted a quite nice 30th Anniversary luncheon in San Antonio, where I met some top names in the business, some of whom I already knew.
Yes, I met Skeeter Skelton. I really liked his articles, and I think he was one of the more honest writers. I think, Shooting Times messed up royally in not getting a similar man to replace him after his untimely death.
One writer did try to inherit Skeeter's mantle, I think, doing gun writing with a southwestern flair. I don't know what became of him, but haven't seen his articles in several years. Frankly, I think the only man who can now write in a way to replace either Skeeter or Elmer is Brian Pearce, who I think is still writing for Wolfe titles. (Rifle and, Handloader.)
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scout789
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Nothing confusing at all. I thought it was fitting tribute to Skeeter. Off topic or not!
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Apparently, Mr. Miller did not realize that Skeeter preferred the 1/10 inch front sight. I would imagine that Skeeter had not become well known enough as a gun writer at that time to rate a custom job.
That said, the job in question would have involved cutting an inch from the barrel, machining the rib flat at the front, making a cut in the top of the barrel parallel to the bore axis to receive the portion of the ramp base that affixed the ramp base and Baughman ramp to the barrel, and drilling two holes for the pins to hold on the ramp base. Oddly, I cannot see how that would have been a giant project for the types of machinists at S&W at that time.
In addition, is it me, or does anyone else think the 5 inch FHP Model 19s appear to have forged on front sights? Perhaps not, but if the ramp base is pinned, it must have the hidden pins that S&W seemed to use somewhat interchangeably at the time with the more visible ones on the Loveless gun.
Perhaps Bill could let us know if his FHP revolver has a forged on ramp base and ramp or if it is the installation where the polishers polish the pins so that they are almost invisible.
In any event, it is clear that someone at the factory later recognized Skeeter's influence with the buying public as he almost single handedly got S&W to bring back the Model 24, as was mentioned.
I also recall Skeeter gently poking S&W over their earlier failure to make the Model 19 he wanted, but that poking came years later when he was lobbying for the Model 24, if I recall.
Someone at S&W got the message, at least as to the Model 24.
If I recall from the article, Skeeter's wish list was a nickeled Model 19 with 5 inch barrel, red ramp, white outline, and Rosewood target stocks. I believe he got one with all of his specs except the barrel length.
Anyone else remember Skeeter's influence on the Model 19 from his time at U.S. Customs? He wrote the specs for the agency's new revolver, which was a Model 19 with a 3 inch barrel, nickel finish, etc. That was many years before the FBI "discovered" the 3 inch K frame in its Model 13.
Unfortunately, some egghead in the purchasing department at Customs saw that S&W made the Model 19 with a 2 1/2 inch barrel, so the egghead changed the order and they ended up with the 2 1/2 inch Model 19, if I recall. Obviously, S&W would have made the 3 inch Model 19 for a large customer like U.S. Customs, and it is a shame they did not.
S&W has a fabulous history of failing to follow recommendations to introduce better models as well as failing to offer limited LE runs for commercial sale when they are better than the catalog version. Of course, I am thinking here of the ONI 4 inch round butt Model 19s. Here we are 40 plus years later with the new four inch round butt Model 19 that will actually shoot Magnum ammo without damage to the barrel shank at the 6 o'clock position. The only problem is that most everyone has now transitioned to semi-autos.
That said, the job in question would have involved cutting an inch from the barrel, machining the rib flat at the front, making a cut in the top of the barrel parallel to the bore axis to receive the portion of the ramp base that affixed the ramp base and Baughman ramp to the barrel, and drilling two holes for the pins to hold on the ramp base. Oddly, I cannot see how that would have been a giant project for the types of machinists at S&W at that time.
In addition, is it me, or does anyone else think the 5 inch FHP Model 19s appear to have forged on front sights? Perhaps not, but if the ramp base is pinned, it must have the hidden pins that S&W seemed to use somewhat interchangeably at the time with the more visible ones on the Loveless gun.
Perhaps Bill could let us know if his FHP revolver has a forged on ramp base and ramp or if it is the installation where the polishers polish the pins so that they are almost invisible.
In any event, it is clear that someone at the factory later recognized Skeeter's influence with the buying public as he almost single handedly got S&W to bring back the Model 24, as was mentioned.
I also recall Skeeter gently poking S&W over their earlier failure to make the Model 19 he wanted, but that poking came years later when he was lobbying for the Model 24, if I recall.
Someone at S&W got the message, at least as to the Model 24.
If I recall from the article, Skeeter's wish list was a nickeled Model 19 with 5 inch barrel, red ramp, white outline, and Rosewood target stocks. I believe he got one with all of his specs except the barrel length.
Anyone else remember Skeeter's influence on the Model 19 from his time at U.S. Customs? He wrote the specs for the agency's new revolver, which was a Model 19 with a 3 inch barrel, nickel finish, etc. That was many years before the FBI "discovered" the 3 inch K frame in its Model 13.
Unfortunately, some egghead in the purchasing department at Customs saw that S&W made the Model 19 with a 2 1/2 inch barrel, so the egghead changed the order and they ended up with the 2 1/2 inch Model 19, if I recall. Obviously, S&W would have made the 3 inch Model 19 for a large customer like U.S. Customs, and it is a shame they did not.
S&W has a fabulous history of failing to follow recommendations to introduce better models as well as failing to offer limited LE runs for commercial sale when they are better than the catalog version. Of course, I am thinking here of the ONI 4 inch round butt Model 19s. Here we are 40 plus years later with the new four inch round butt Model 19 that will actually shoot Magnum ammo without damage to the barrel shank at the 6 o'clock position. The only problem is that most everyone has now transitioned to semi-autos.
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Texas Star
US Veteran
Shawn-
You are correct: Skeeter wasn't yet a major gun writer in 1965. He was worth selling a gun to at the writer's price, but not custom work, which the five-inch gun was
BUT...neither was Bob Loveless a famous custom knifemaker until 1970 or so! Maybe he paid hard cash over the base price of a normal barrel to get that service?
He also altered M-41 .22 autos into what he called a "field gun" sort of small game and plinking pistol, and reworked a Colt Model M .380 into a visible hammer profile.
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Shawn...the FHP revolver has the ramp base pinned to the barrel with two pins that are polished flush to the barrel rib. This practice started when S&W finished the red ramp and ramp base in nickel (early 1968 for all target models?), rather than in blue. The 19-2 for Loveless was shipped in 1965 and the 19-2 FHP revolvers in 1969.
The 19-2 for Bob Loveless was a special order placed by Gil Hebard Guns in Knoxville, IL on July 3, 1965. The revolver was shipped on August 16, 1965. The invoice amount was $97.05 which included a $10.00 charge for cutting down the barrel.
Skeeter Skelton was shipped a Model 27, S241001, 5-inch, bright blue, 1/10" front sight, engraved C. A. S., on October 18, 1963. The invoice amount was $82.23, which is a significant savings from the retail list price of $120.00.
Bill
The 19-2 for Bob Loveless was a special order placed by Gil Hebard Guns in Knoxville, IL on July 3, 1965. The revolver was shipped on August 16, 1965. The invoice amount was $97.05 which included a $10.00 charge for cutting down the barrel.
Skeeter Skelton was shipped a Model 27, S241001, 5-inch, bright blue, 1/10" front sight, engraved C. A. S., on October 18, 1963. The invoice amount was $82.23, which is a significant savings from the retail list price of $120.00.
Bill
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ibthumper
US Veteran
Thanks for sharing. Brother I do miss the writings of the old school masters.
Chubbo
Member
Skeeter was one of my favorite "Gun writers". He wrote some of the best gun stories, and "True" kid stories, that I ever read. Skeeter, as a firearm writer, and tester, never seen, or heard of, a firearm, that he couldn't find a way to improve. He was extremely talented in that respect, and "Knew What Side His Bread Was Buttered On". I really miss him.
Chubbo
Chubbo
I’ve had a handful of articles published in American Handgunner. I can attest that the pay is fairly meager. I think about $600 is about the most I ever made. $400 was more the norm. Some years back I wrote pretty regularly for a Corvette magazine. They paid considerably better. Not only did I routinely get $7-800 per article, they frequently gave me some very expensive parts to install. Needless to say, once installed those parts did not get sent back to the vendor.
Texas Star
US Veteran
While a Treasury (Customs) agent he wore a Walther PP .380 on him and had a M-19 in a Jordan style rig in his car trunk, with a Thompson SMG. At times, I think he subbed that M-27 for the M-19, and it was his favorite revolver of all. He owned several over the years. In an article in, Gun World in 1963 (?) , he chose it as a single firearm if he had to survive in the wilderness after a national disaster. The initials on it stood for Charles Allan Skelton. I think I spelled "Allan" right. ?? Skeeter was his childhood nickname.
amazingflapjack
US Veteran
There's just something about the 5's-I have a m-27 5 inch, had a 627-0 5 1/2 inch, and just got a GP-100 5 inch-It's a handy barrel length-seems just right (?).
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Texas Star
US Veteran
In a couple of cases, you are literally correct in calling them school masters.
Jack O'Connor was a university professor, who founded the Journalism program at AZ State University, and Warren Page was a Master in English at a private prep school before joining, Field & Stream as Shooting Editor.
Actually, Page applied for the job of Fishing Editor, but they'd hired Al McClane. Dr. McClane remained there for a generation, also publishing some fine fishing books on the side.
Page accepted the position of Shooting Editor, despite not knowing a vast amount about guns. But he learned fast, and was largely responsible for the introduction of both the .243 Winchester and .244/6mm Remington cartridges, and of the 7mm Remington Magnum. He was also instrumental in forming
the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF).
Page was mainly a rifleman, and when I asked a couple of questions about handguns, he referred me to Maj. George Nonte.
In fairness, Page lived in New York ,not a haven for handgunners.
O'Connor also wasn't heavily into handguns, although he owned maybe a dozen, inc. a S&W .44 Special. When I asked about Bianchi and Safariland holsters, he suggested that I try Lawrence holsters, the company that made his own leather. He had Lawrence make a holster for a Colt Commander 9mm for his friend, Prince Abdul Reza (Abdoreza) of Iran. He was the brother of the Shah of Iran, who was later overthrown by the Islamic clerics who now rule Iran. O'Connor hunted with Abdul, the only US gun writer who I know of having hunted with royalty.
Jack is also the sole gun writer to have received a major obituary in US newspapers. They publicize deaths of many athletes and former coaches, but usually ignore the gun sports.
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