I was always of the opinion that the Ks(K22, K32, K38) went the way of the dodo bird when model numbering started. But I run into people all the time that call their model 14 a K38. To me, NO, that's not a K38.

What do all you'all think?

__________________
DAO Hunter, SWCA #2955

I suppose K38 Masterpiece (or K22 or K32 Masterpiece) is correct for the pre-model number guns. Many folks, myself included, often refer to them as pre-14s (16s, 17s) which I know is like fingernails on a blackboard to some people. Don't think there is anything wrong with calling the later ones K38s though; they're K frame 38s. A rose by any other name still smells the same. . . . I try not to get too worked up about it.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

To me a model 15 or 14 is still a K38. K38 is a name model 14 is a designation.
But, then I am not a purists

The best way to answer the question is to look at what the company was calling them from 1958 onward (that is the year model numbered guns actually started shipping to dealers).

Take a look at this picture of a Model 14-2 that shipped in 1967. The spec sheet that shipped with it, clearly seen in the picture, should answer your question.



Here's how it worked. When the company assigned model numbers, they were added to the existing names. A Combat Magnum was still a Combat Magnum but it was now also a Model 19. A Highway Patrolman was now a Highway Patrolman Model 28. Etc.

__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Well, yes, Jeff. But all K frame .38 revolvers are not K-38s and never were. The K-38 was always and only the designation for the postwar, K frame .38 Special, with the adjustable rear sight and a 6" barrel (admitting that there were some special order 5" barrels in the mid-1950s).

__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I don't even care...but I hope a nice one comes my way soon! don't yet own a model 14, I mean K38.....

Yes, S&W's advertising uses the "Model XXX, Name" format. So "Model 14 K-38 Masterpiece " is correct.

Thought we were homed in on the 14s/16s/17s but that is a clarification that should be made. Wonder though what we should call a 15-6 with six inch barrel? That would seem to be a K38 too even though it is a Model 15.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

To me, the K38 designation refers to the pre-1957 Combat Masterpiece introduced in 1949.

__________________
John

Except that the Factory NEVER called the Combat Masterpiece a "K-38". They simply called it a "Combat Masterpiece". After the 22 CM was introduced, they called it a "38 Combat Masterpiece", and the 22 was the "22 Combat Masterpiece".

Attached Images

IMG_3293.jpg (57.5 KB, 602 views)

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

One of our colleagues noted he was not a purist----and that's all well and good. I'm pretty sure nothing's chiseled in stone anywhere about what we're supposed to call any particular handgun-----other than in my mind, of course.

The first model number I ever saw was 19. It was on the box of this shiny new gun I was about to buy. It was in small print. Right up above it, in BIG print, it said COMBAT MAGNUM. That's what I was going to buy. I suspect, had all it said was Model 19---no matter in what size print----I suspect I'd probably have bought a PYTHON------has a certain ring to it---kinda like COMBAT MAGNUM.

Well, I bought it, took it home, and put it on the shelf. I told folks it was a COMBAT MAGNUM. They said it was a pretty neat gun.

It wasn't too long after that, that I heard folks talking about Model 19's, and Model this, and Model that. I thought about that some, and decided it was sad they didn't know what the names of these guns were.

Then----then pretty much everything went straight to Hell in a handbasket!! Folks started calling the early guns like a COMBAT MAGNUM---started calling them "Pre-Model 19's---and Pre Model this---and Pre Model that. More often than not I didn't know what they were talking about----had to look it up.

Then I got mad, not because I had to look stuff up; but because these "Pre-Model" this and that folks didn't seem to care enough to learn and use the proper names.

I'm still mad. I guess that makes me one of those purists.

(Oh, and by the way, a K-38 is a K frame .38 Special Target gun with a 6" barrel. Another K frame .38 Special target grade gun with a 4" barrel is a Combat Masterpiece. It's actually alright with me some folks either don't know that or don't care. The folks who don't know can find out easy enough, and as far as the folks who don't care go, well that's just sad.)

Ralph Tremaine

I see Lee beat me to it with this K-38 and Combat Masterpiece business. Good on you, Sir!

.....what you call this thing, but I sure like it!

1957 Illinois State Police Contract, 5 inch barrel, .38 Special.

Attached Images

ISP 5 Inch.jpg (23.3 KB, 85 views)

If clarity is the goal, it makes the most sense to call the non-model marked guns by their name and all model marked guns by their model and revision (if any).

If a friend was asking me to come check out their new-to-them K-38, and I show up and it's a 14-5 full lug with factory combats, even if not technically incorrect it would seem *weird* to me.

__________________
Psalm 27:2

A wide rib bull barrel - K-38 Masterpiece (like yours).
A narrow rib tapered barrel - .38 Combat Masterpiece (like the MSHP contract guns).
Clear as mud.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

When it comes to S&W nomenclature sometimes it is difficult to have absolute rules as there is usually some exception to that rule.

IMO it is generally understood that if you say K-38 you are referring to a post war K target site revolver in .38 Special caliber and usually one made prior to model numbers otherwise you would just say a Model 14, 15 etc.

While there are pre war K frame target site revolvers usually people dont call them " K-38's" , (BTW IIRC those were called .38 M&P target revolvers).
The exception is with the pre war K-22 Outdoorsman and K-22 Masterpiece which people refer to as pre war K-22's all the time.

On a side note the in house factory designation for the Combat Magnum (AKA Model 19), was the KT .357 for "K frame Target options .357".

Using this logic you would think the .44 Magnum (AKA Model 29) internal designation would have been "NT .44" but you would be wrong... it was actually "NT 430" which stood for "N frame Target Options with a bore of 0.430 inch " which was the actual size of its bore.

What does this all mean ?
Not much really but it is fun to chat about.

Time to clarify:

The K-38 Masterpiece was clip fed and
capable of single acton and double action
fire.

The Model 14 was magazine fed and capable
of SA/DA but also full auto.

__________________
Ubi Est Mea

L don't know about the rest of you guys, but if somebody tells me they have a K-38, I expect to see an adjustable sighted 38 Special revolver on the K sized frame. If it's late enough for the factory to have added Model Number markings, that's all well and good, but if it's a K-38, it's a 6" target revolver on S&W's medium frame, and everything else is just noise.

As usual, "that's my story and I'm sticking to it!"

Froggie

Ok, but what do you call it if it is what you say except that it has an 8 3/8 inch barrel? Or is stamped 15-6 and has a six inch barrel? And does it really matter to anyone outside of our somewhat eccentric group?

Jeff
SWCA #1457

K Frame, in fact the first "hand ejector"
38 caliber
DA or SA...your choice
"bred" for Combat (US Army)
too early for Model 14
way too early for K38 Masterpiece
too early for even "pre 14"

Guess I'll just keep calling it a Smith & Wesson, or "neat old piece".

All above...…….very, very tongue in cheek folks.

Attached Images

	Mod 1899 -1.jpg (83.3 KB, 51 views)
	Mod 1899 -3.jpg (102.4 KB, 29 views)
	Mod 1899 -8.jpg (29.1 KB, 27 views)

__________________
Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

Maybe I'm wrong, but a M15 even six inched, will have a Baughman front sight. For this reason it will be a M15 again. The scarce M14 4" barreled had a Patridge foresight, and for this reason it wasn't a M15.....

Yes you are wrong. But I don't think S&W made many of these so easy mistake to make. There were also some 15-5 six inch guns and some 8 3/8s too although I've never seen one. Here's an example of a 15-6 six inch with Patridge front sight; sure looks like a K38 to me.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Attached Images

	15-6 6 inch 38 Spec.jpg (38.8 KB, 53 views)
	15-6 6 inch BNW7268 1993.jpg (29.5 KB, 42 views)

Roy Jinks called it a “Neat Gun” when I asked for a ship date on my 5”. By the serial number search from another forum member mine is NOT an ISP like yours, wish it was, by all accounts you have a nice and pretty rare gun there, Neat!

__________________
Danny
SWCA #3370 - SWHF #672

Note the word I used was "expect" not "demand." Folks get to call all sorts of things K-38s if it suits them, but IMHO, the term brings to mind the classic Masterpiece which was the premier Bullseye Revolver of the S&W line for decades. If the image fades in my memory, I open my gun box and look at my 1948 vintage narrow rib example nestled in with its smaller brother the K-22 and its much younger sister the Model 16-3 copy I had to have built to fill the slot.

Froggie

Far be it from me to argue with you or Lee, not gonna happen in this lifetime, maybe I’ll be smarter in the next, nah, not likely.

I’m confused with the naming too, and my letters didn’t help, but then perhaps Roy is using common language that most have come to accept, since he notes the designation for each in my 3 letters on the K22, K32, and K38 and mentioned the Combats using the K22/32/38 Combat Masterpiece and model numbers. Sent for letters on the Combats but that’s a while out.

I’ve put together the K22, 32, and 38 Masterpieces, and very recently picked up what I thought were the K22 Combat Masterpiece (18-3), a K38 Combat Masterpiece (4” Pre-15), and a K38 Combat Masterpiece (5” Pre-14). Likely no chance I’ll ever get a K32 Combat.

So to be clear, they are:

22 Combat Masterpiece 18-3
38 Combat Masterpiece (Pre-14 4”)
38 Combat Masterpiece (Pre-15 5”))

Attached Images

	265C50A2-CED0-41DD-AC30-74BC1160A26B.jpg (58.7 KB, 16 views)
	A4E37AE2-523F-4A32-90EB-D57082354FB0.jpg (83.0 KB, 22 views)

__________________
Danny
SWCA #3370 - SWHF #672

I look at it this way, if I say to two people "what kinda car do you drive" and they both say "A Chevrolet Corvette " you assume they both have the same type of car....but if one says a 1978 L82 Corvette and the other replies a 2019 ZR1 Corvette you understand very quickly the two cars are completely different but share the same name and lineage.

To that point is a six inch 15-8 a K38 ?
Yes.... but its not a 1955 K38 Heavy Masterpiece.... and although they may look similar to the untrained eye and are made by the same company they have almost zero parts compatability.

Well, Jack gave us a pretty good example of a K-38 Masterpiece Model 14. Here's one of a K-22 Masterpiece Model 17.

It is a 17-4 with all original paperwork, box and tools that I ordered and purchased new in April of 1980. The folded up brochure in the pic has a revision date of 1978 printed on the back page.

Attached Images

DSC01954b.jpg (103.0 KB, 30 views)

__________________
SWCA 3297 SWHF 583

Given the absolute disregard for proper terminology by most S&W owners ("pencil barrel" immediately comes to mind) I am surprised this discussion has drawn so much interest.

May I inject the I38?

__________________
No life story has happy end.

FWIW, I don’t get wrapped around the axle on Smith nomenclature. Generally speaking I use the names of guns or the term “pre”, e.g., pre 27 instead of 357 magnum, for guns made before model numbers and the model number for those made after 58.

__________________
213th FBINA

I kinda don't like the "Pre-" because that didn't exist until they went to Model numbers. It's like .45 "Long" Colt. It didn't become "Long" until after the fact.

It also bugs me when the Dr. tells you your pre-diabetic. Hell, we're all "Pre-Diabetic".

So then what do you call this one? Model 14 no dash, Baughman front sight, target hammer, trigger and stocks........... with a 5” heavy barrel? Factory lettered to have been shipped in that configuration.
Not being contentious, just having some fun with the S&W axiom, never say never with Smith!!

Getting into George Carlin "Select passengers are now invited to pre-board the aircraft" territory there...

It's obvious there are distinct differences between factory terminology, collector terminology, and 'street' terminology. But this is the case with any mature hobby or collector field.

__________________
Psalm 27:2

When I was a kid in grade school, the school library had a neat book called, "All About Handguns", or something to that effect.
(I know...)
I used to check it out very regularly. (Quick, someone call the principal!). My younger brother and I used to gawk over the appendix which showed all the S&W revolvers one by one, with specs and prices. And, Names! Of course we learned them all, knew the ballistics of all the various chamberings, etc.
Later on, we got ahold of a genuine S&W catalog!! Then, we learned the model numbers, too. The dash this, dash that didn't bother us. Just seemed to be minor engineering changes to us kids.

Couple more years later, we kicked ourselves. One of the gunshow regulars was always trying to sell his old M29 for the same price as a new one (dash 3 by that point). Turns out it was a mint 4" four screw with nickel finish in presentation case. Kinda wish I gave him the 450 bucks...

Jim

Then I don't understand: apart the stamping M15 (or 14), if two guns have the identical frame, barrel, trigger&hammer, grips, cylinder, sights, finish, rib, backstrap & frontstrap, lockwork......which is the difference?

Agh, Gee thanks, as you had to remind me of the obvious hole in collection. I have no I frames

__________________
DAO Hunter, SWCA #2955

OK, thanks everyone for replying. I am going to have go with Jack's (JP@AK) reply, with his photo evidence of the company literature as the best evidence that my personal definition is/was wrong and so I've learned something here!!

__________________
DAO Hunter, SWCA #2955

Indeed.

But folks should remember that the purpose of the terminology is to clearly identify the gun at hand to others. So coming up with your own “purist” usage rule is counterproductive if your interpretation is not shared by a majority of collectors and users out there, no matter how precise and well-reasoned your justification might be.

Just like the eternal infernal debate about the Models 1902 and 1905. Lee once provided a detailed and convincing explanation why collectors distinguish the Model 1902 from the later Model 1905 round-butt. It’s technical. But back at the time, neither the factory nor anyone else made the distinction, and the vast majority of users and historical collectors are better served by the simple butt-shape distinction (1902 = rd, 1905 = sq). That’s practical.

Same here. As Jack’s photo in post #4 proves conclusively, all three possibilities, K-38, Masterpiece, and Model 14, were in “official” use at that time, by 1967 about ten years into the model-number era. So we can discuss which name is more practical or why, but none is more “correct” than the others. And none is “wrong”.

I can tell you what I think...

I think words matter a whole lot. They are powerful and carry a lot of weight and those who are skilled with them are an asset to any group, hobby or culture.

When it comes to this particular group, most of us are well aware that S&W followed their own rules, rules that were and are ever changing. Rule #1 is the golden rule with S&W.

Where does that leave us? I think the best move is to listen to the most skilled voices, the folks around here that stand out for not only their deep knowledge base and experience, but their eloquence, clarity and willingness to share that knowledge and experience.

They don’t get to make the rules (don’t forget Rule #1) but in my opinion, their opinion carries more weight than many or even most.

If you can’t figure out who those folks are then you probably also aren’t the type who cares about the value of nomenclature and terminology.

I think the "rest of the story" on the M14s/15s is that S&W discontinued the M14, (-4 version) in 1982 concurrent with the elimination of the pinned barrel. When the M14 was re-introduced in 1991 it was with a full lug barrel as the 14-5 (all of this according to the Standard Catalog).

The 15-5 with six inch barrel (and 8 3/8) came along in 1986 perhaps due to customer demand from the lack of a "traditional" M14? Just guessing, maybe someone here has better information. The 15-6 with six inch barrel continued until 1992. Perhaps a leap too far, someone here will surely let us know, but it appears to me that during this period the M15 in six inch became the only option to continue the K38 Masterpiece if you wanted something close to the original configuration. Or perhaps with the discontinuance of the M14-4 in 1982 that was the last of the "real" K38s and we should only use model numbers now. Frankly using model numbers for all those that have them, seems like the logical thing to do. Of course then we need to memorize the changes in the various dash numbers to adequately explain to another collector what we have.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

I call it a very very pre-Model 10, or Military and Police.

1,356 angels can sit on the
point of a needle if you get
my point.

Bless the internet gun forums.

Or what else would we be doing?

__________________
Ubi Est Mea

I chastise myself when I refer to my .22 Combat Masterpiece as a K22.

Words?

Just words by you?

No, whip yourself until you are a bloody pulp.

It's Lent. Whip yourself until you are two
bloody pulps.

__________________
Ubi Est Mea

Don't get me wrong. I love the names. Some of them are.great. Ralph's Combat Magnum, The New Century.etc. I am just not hard and fast about it. If I was talking to a hardcore S&W guy ai would try to be far more precise than with the vast majority of people. Like this. I know 45 long colt is incorrect. But the vast majority of the.population needs more discriptive wording as many invision the 45 acp. Some I try to educate some i just let go all their merry way. 99.9% of the world don't know that S&W did or didn't have names model numbers etc. Why make it an issue

When it comes to technobabble, I personally like Marvin's "Illudiam Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator." Now that's a proper technobabble name!

The previous model was the "Uranium Pu-36 Explosive Space Modulator" usually referred to by earthlings as the "Pre-Illudiam."

I'm now returning to my bunker.

Birdgun

The factory-produced, special order 4" Model 14s that I've seen have the Baughman ramp front sight . . . see example below.

Russ

Attached Images

	Picture 009.jpg (56.8 KB, 7 views)
	Picture 011.jpg (73.5 KB, 7 views)
	cropped last para.jpg (68.3 KB, 5 views)