Model 25-2 with another cylinder

[MarkHayden]

I found a Model 25-2 today in a presentation case. The serial number is N316xxx, indicating a 1975 date. What intrigued me was the case included the 25-5 cylinder in the case, along with an 8-rib aluminum SAT. Could this be for real?

Thank you all for your info on this purchase.

Mark

[steelslaver]

a 25-5 cylinder will not fit in a 25-2 as they are about 1/10" longer on the front end and .040 longer on the back. A 25-3 cylinder is the right length on front and will work if the frame lug on a 25-2 is filed back .040 or a shelf is machined off around the back corner of the colt cylinder


That picture shows either a 25-3 cylinder or one made from a 357 cylinder, and the frame lug is moved back. The 25-2 acp cylinder will slop back about .040 when open.

The back of colt cylinders is longer for the clips. The 25-5 used 44 mag length cylinders and will hit the barrel extension on a 25-2.

I have made several acp guns into 45 colt guns To fit a 25-5 length cylinder I needed to take a bunch off the barrel extension and recut the forcing cone, as well as modify the frame lug.

[22hipower]

Interesting but the 25-5 cylinder was probably added by a previous owner; does it actually fit? If the price was right I'd be interested, well, more interested in just the cylinder as I have enough 25-2s. What was the asking price? Usually find the the gun by itself or perhaps with the presentation case for around $1200 where I shop.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

[H Richard]

If memory serves me correctly, there was a very small run of them made with both cylinders from the factory. I believe they used the longer cylinder for both, and chambering them as ACP and Long Colt.

Anyone else recall this?

[steelslaver]

If you look at the cylinder to frame gap in the gun shown you can see it has the longer barrel extension of the short cylinders.

Normal ACP gun

long cylinder 45 colt 25-5 and later


The ACP guns, 357, 44 special and the 25-3 and rare earlier 45 colts had the longg barrel extension, short cylinder

The 41 mags, 44 mags and the later 45 colts all used the longer cylinder

A long cylinder 45 acp with a long 45 colt cylinder would work.
I quit usig dual cylinder 45s and went to using long cylinders in 45 colt cut for full moons to shoot 45 acps. The chambers are colt length and colt rims set on outer ledge for correct headspace. You can also use 45 win mag brass in moon clips.

I have 2 guns that run this type of cylinder a blue 3 1/4" a 4"stainless

I also have 2 of the short cylinders made like this to fire both in my parts pile from my earlier experiments

[MarkHayden]

Thank you all for your observations and comments. The cylinders are identical in length, and and the frame gap is exactly what is depicted in steelslayer’s 25-2 photo. Closer inspection of the “25-5” cylinder shows machining marks in the bores not seen in factory pistols. The whole package was $1300; I was looking for a nice 25-2 when I found it. I’ll settle for it and look more closely at the complete package in the future.

Mark

[Muley Gil]

If you reload and use Keith style semi-wadcutters in the .45 Colt, you will need to deep seat them and crimp over the front band, because of the short cylinder. Reduce the powder charge a mite.

[steelslaver]

If the chambers on the 45 colt cylinder are not blue, it is most likely that it was reamed from a 357 cylinder. It was diffidently not an recessed cylinder, you can tell by looking at distance from stop notch to read edge of cylinder. If they did use a recessed 357 cylinder they machined off the thickness for recesses. You can leave that and make a recessed 45 colt cylinder, But, if you really have to take back the frame lug for a recessed cylinder to clear and the acp cylinder would really slops back a lot when open.

[MarkHayden]

I have a stack of loose papers that are in need of a weight. Thank you for your suggestions.

Mark

[Model19man]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

If you reload and use Keith style semi-wadcutters in the .45 Colt, you will need to deep seat them and crimp over the front band, because of the short cylinder. Reduce the powder charge a mite.

I have shot nearly nothing but reloads in my 25-2 with the 25-3 cylinder installed. I find the OAL called out in Lyman's reloading manual makes the cartridge fit nicely. I have never done anything except what the manual says over the past 40 - ish years since I bought the gun new. Mainly I use the Keith designed SWC's, lately I have been buying them powder coated so the guy at my indoor range doesn't yell at me.

I think it's internet lore that somehow you need to make some sort of adjustment to use the 45 Colt in a 25-2 or 25-3. I find it's just not the case.

[steelslaver]

My cast 255 gr semi wad cutters using a Lyman mold would not work in a the cylinder of a 25-3 I owned if I crimp them in the crimp groove. Nor would the work in ones made from 357 cylinders made to work in model 25-2 or 1917 acp guns I owned. They stick out the face of the cylinders. The very tip of the red nylon nose of the Revolution 45 colts had to be clipped off to work Not internet lore. FACT Some will, but not all. All of the fit correctly in my 25-5 cylinders and those made by reaming from 44 mag cylinders.

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by Model19man

I have shot nearly nothing but reloads in my 25-2 with the 25-3 cylinder installed. I find the OAL called out in Lyman's reloading manual makes the cartridge fit nicely. I have never done anything except what the manual says over the past 40 - ish years since I bought the gun new. Mainly I use the Keith designed SWC's, lately I have been buying them powder coated so the guy at my indoor range doesn't yell at me.

I think it's internet lore that somehow you need to make some sort of adjustment to use the 45 Colt in a 25-2 or 25-3. I find it's just not the case.

I owned a .455 2nd Model that had been converted to .45 Colt. I had to deep seat my Keith style SWCs. When loaded, the bullets came right to the end of the cylinder face.

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by Model19man

…I find the OAL called out in Lyman's reloading manual makes the cartridge fit nicely. I have never done anything except what the manual says over the past 40 - ish years since I bought the gun new. Mainly I use the Keith designed SWC's…
I think it's internet lore that somehow you need to make some sort of adjustment to use the 45 Colt in a 25-2 or 25-3. I find it's just not the case…

Lyman has cut the Keith bullet, 454424, at least 4 different ways so depending on which mold you are using, you might be right. However, for those folks who actually have the original 454424, the bullet is too long to be seated to the crimp groove.

I will look for an image of the various castings and post it if I can find it.

Kevin

[StrawHat]

Not the image I wanted but these are all bullets that were cast from a variety of molds claiming to be 454424 or copies thereof. You can see all sorts of differences. Crimp groove to meplat varies quite a lot.



Kevin

[steelslaver]

Thanks, My mold would match about 5 or 6 from left,. Notice they are all have about the same height, but the crimp groove varies up and down. The lower the crimp groove the farther out the bullet nose ends up, with less base in case. #3, #7 and #9 would also have a long OAL

I now run all long cylinders except on my converted 445 Triple-lock. But I only fire light loaded round nose in it. My SWC loads are on the hot side and the long OAL of them makes sure they don't fit in that gun. i used to run 18.5 of 2400 and now go with 24 gr of H110. I also have a 215 SWC mold for light loads and my acp guns. Those I use Green Dot on.

[Model19man]

Originally Posted by StrawHat

Not the image I wanted but these are all bullets that were cast from a variety of molds claiming to be 454424 or copies thereof. You can see all sorts of differences. Crimp groove to meplat varies quite a lot.



Kevin

The OAL called out is the thing to watch. It doesn't matter how long the projectile is if you are using the OAL. I load well below maximum so it's not an issue if the bullet is slightly longer or shorter.

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by Model19man

The OAL called out is the thing to watch. It doesn't matter how long the projectile is if you are using the OAL. I load well below maximum so it's not an issue if the bullet is slightly longer or shorter.

So you don’t use the crimp groove. That works, especially with soft loads.

Lots of reloaders just set up to crimp in the groove and don’t comprehend why the cartridges do not fit the cylinder.

Kevin

[steelslaver]

Yes, you can and I have crimped in front of the first band instead of the crimp groove. But, the bullet was not designed to crimp there and it lowers the case volume. There is a reason that they went to the longer cylinder after the 25-3

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by Model19man

…I have shot nearly nothing but reloads in my 25-2 with the 25-3 cylinder installed. I find the OAL called out in Lyman's reloading manual makes the cartridge fit nicely…

I think it's internet lore that somehow you need to make some sort of adjustment to use the 45 Colt in a 25-2 or 25-3. I find it's just not the case…

Originally Posted by Model19man

The OAL called out is the thing to watch. It doesn't matter how long the projectile is if you are using the OAL. I load well below maximum so it's not an issue if the bullet is slightly longer or shorter.

Okay, I just reread your posts and grasped what you were saying. You load to OAL, regardless of crimp groove. Got it.

Kevin

[Jaco1234]

What is an 8 rib SAT?

[Jim Watson]

Collector name for screwdriver. "Sight Adjustment Tool." There are different styles and having the original or at least one of the right vintage for your gun is important. To collectors.

[Model19man]

Originally Posted by steelslaver

Yes, you can and I have crimped in front of the first band instead of the crimp groove. But, the bullet was not designed to crimp there and it lowers the case volume. There is a reason that they went to the longer cylinder after the 25-3

The OAL called out is specific to the type of bullet. It does not care what type of handgun you are using. It's in the manual, you follow it for each cartridge. It has not one thing to do with the cylinder length.

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by Model19man

The OAL called out is specific to the type of bullet. It does not care what type of handgun you are using. It's in the manual, you follow it for each cartridge. It has not one thing to do with the cylinder length.

The Keith style bullet that I cast has a long nose. If I use the crimp groove, it is too long for a N frame .357 sized cylinder. It is fine in my M25-5 that has a longer cylinder.

I discussed this matter with a friend who is also a member of this forum. He owns a .455 Triple Lock. He has one SWC bullet that he uses that has to be loaded in Schofield cases, otherwise the round is too long for the TL.

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

The Keith style bullet that I cast has a long nose. If I use the crimp groove, it is too long for a N frame .357 sized cylinder. It is fine in my M25-5 that has a longer cylinder.

I discussed this matter with a friend who is also a member of this forum. He owns a .455 Triple Lock. He has one SWC bullet that he uses that has to be loaded in Schofield cases, otherwise the round is too long for the TL.

MG,

I believe you, your friend and I are all using the crimp groove for the purpose it was built. I think that those who just go by the cartridge OAL are crimping wherever they need to in order to hold to that dimension.

The reloading manuals are likely using the dimension that will fit in the shortest cylinder, ie, the Model 25-3.

I avoid the issue, at least in 45 long Colt. I no longer use that cartridge, preferring the 45 ACP.

Kevin

[steelslaver]

The AOL is more specific to bullet. But it is NOT a hard and fast rule to cartridge. There is no reason on this green earth I have to crimp my bullets anywhere but in the crimp groove on the the bullet, where it was obviously designed to be crimped unless it will not work in my gun. As all my 45 colts now have the longer sized cylinders I am not limited the standard, but not mandatory OAL

I am also not limited to the SAAMI standard 14,000psi and run closer to 23,000psi. Ya, I do that and have been for years with absolutely no ill effects.

The SAAMI "standards" are by their very name standards. They are "standards" that mus include fitting and safely firing in guns like the 1973 Colt which was designed and built with steel manufactured 150 years ago.

I do not own a 1873 colt, the ammo I make with higher than normal pressures will not fit in one of them or my triple lock. It also will not fit in a 25-3.

All but one of my 45 colt cylinders were made by reaming 44 mag cylinders to 45 colt so that I have precision cylinders with .452 throats and most of them also have recessed chambers.

Initially I only pointed out that the model 25-3 cylinders and there like will not work with all bullets. They will not even work with all factory ammo. The Revolution 45 colts with the red plastic tip designed for tube feeds will not work in a 25-3 unless you trim the plastic tip a tiny bit

[Model19man]

Originally Posted by steelslaver

The AOL is more specific to bullet. But it is NOT a hard and fast rule to cartridge. There is no reason on this green earth I have to crimp my bullets anywhere but in the crimp groove on the the bullet, where it was obviously designed to be crimped unless it will not work in my gun. As all my 45 colts now have the longer sized cylinders I am not limited the standard, but not mandatory OAL

I am also not limited to the SAAMI standard 14,000psi and run closer to 23,000psi. Ya, I do that and have been for years with absolutely no ill effects.

The SAAMI "standards" are by their very name standards. They are "standards" that mus include fitting and safely firing in guns like the 1973 Colt which was designed and built with steel manufactured 150 years ago.

I do not own a 1873 colt, the ammo I make with higher than normal pressures will not fit in one of them or my triple lock. It also will not fit in a 25-3.

All but one of my 45 colt cylinders were made by reaming 44 mag cylinders to 45 colt so that I have precision cylinders with .452 throats and most of them also have recessed chambers.

Initially I only pointed out that the model 25-3 cylinders and there like will not work with all bullets. They will not even work with all factory ammo. The Revolution 45 colts with the red plastic tip designed for tube feeds will not work in a 25-3 unless you trim the plastic tip a tiny bit

I call BS. I started with three boxes of factory ammo years ago. No problems there either.

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by Model19man

I call BS. I started with three boxes of factory ammo years ago. No problems there either.

I read this and walked away for several hours before responding.

Like many on the internet, you take refuge in your anonymity. You also thing that a sample of one, makes you an expert on something. Somehow your Model 25-2 with a Model 25-3 cylinder installed allows you to shoot some unknown factory ammunition and your own reloads tailored to the cylinder. And because of that, you think you can call BS on a fellow who has machined at least 1/2 dozen cylinders to work with long crimp to meplat bullets.

Have you tried the Hornandy Leverevolution ammunition in your cylinder? If so, how did it work?

We totally understand that some SWC’s can be loaded below the crimp groove and they work. It would be wise to reduce the powder charge as you are decrease the pressure vessel. I believe you indicate you use reduced loads. That is good.

But there are those of us who have been handloading for a few years and remember when manuals were rather hit and miss and reloading recipes were often untested for pressures. I recall some very well known authors, seat of the pants reloaders, who recommended loads based on what their revolvers could hold. When those recipes were pressure tested, the recommendations stopped.

But you, with your sample revolver of one, can be smug and sanctimonious because yours works when many other folks have not had the same results.

I guess you believe, based on the Bella Twin incident, that a 22 rimfire is more than adequate bear medicine?

Kevin

[steelslaver]

I tell you what. PM me your address and I will sent you 100 255 gr hard cast SWC. You load them in up using factory lengtth brass and crimp them in the crimp groove and if you can fire them in your 25-3 cylinder they are a gift. If your cylinder will not close because the nose of the bullets stick out the front of the cylinder you sent me $25 to pay for the bullets and the shipping. You will only be out $25, your powder and primers unless your tear them back apart because I quarantine you they will not work in a 25-3 cylinder.

I go my a 25-3 45 colt when they first came out, I built a 45 colts on a 1917 frames and a model 1955 5 screw 45acp using 357 length cylinders. Those bullets would not work it those cylinders. I currently have 8 S&W 45 colts and I do no what I am talking about. Then I actually went to work on S&W 45 colts

My 45 colts
A 1917 milled for adjustable sights with a cut down 1950 3 1/4" barrel and modified grip frame (also fires acps)

A 6 1/2" barrel on a 5 screw 1955 frame with a recessed cylinder made from a 44 mag cylinder

A Stainless 5" 45 colt on a 629-1 frame using a reamed 44 mag cylinder

A 6" using a 1955 barrel on a early Highway Patrolman 5 screw frame and a recessed cylinder made using a 44 mag cylinder

A 4 1/4" 45 colt built on a 1917 frame milled for sights and fit with a cut down 1950 barrel and a reamed 44 mag cylinder.

A 455 Triple lock converted to 45 colt by reaming and partial recessing to 45 colt

A 5" pinned and recessed 25-5 made modified with a reamed 44 mag cylinder and cutting down the original 8 3/8" barrel

Then there is my 16 1/2" barrel revolving carbine using a Brazilian frame milled for sights, using a green mountain 45 barrel blank and time. Since this picture the short cylinder has been replaced by a long 25-5 length one made from a 44 mag and I finally blued the thing

Oh, here is my 4" made from a 629-1 44 mag. pictured with my 5"

The 4" stainless one and the 3 1/4" blue one booth have modified cylinders cut to fire ACPs in full moon clips like so


Nope I don't know nothing about S&W 45 colts don't have a clue

I have only made a bunch of them. Nothing close to the knowledge you have from just buying one.
Group shot


PS to me a box of ammo has 500 rounds in it.

[Model19man]

Hornady Leverrevolution didn't exist in 1981 when I bought my 25-2. What's the OAL? Bet it fits.

The Newest Lyman manual is what I am using. It's not wrong.

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by Model19man

Hornady Leverrevolution didn't exist in 1981 when I bought my 25-2. What's the OAL? Bet it fits.

The Newest Lyman manual is what I am using. It's not wrong.

What bullets are listed in the .45 Colt loading data? Any cast bullet data? What issue number is this manual?

[steelslaver]

All the 25-3 and earlier cylinders are the same length and those are the same length as 357 cylinders minus the recesses. A Revolution tip just barely sticks out the front of those cylinders and if you do not clip off the very tip they will not work. I have 2 of those length cylinders in my parts pile, and one ios still in my Triple lock and will remain there. One of the parts pile cylinders used to be in a 1955 45acp which became the 25-2 when model numbers came along. The Revolution or correctly LEVERevolution rounds stick out the front of them. I had to clip them to use them in those guns.

That is how I know they will not work without modification. Experience. But, then they were designed for rifles.

But, I went and got the few I have left. Their OAL is 1.680, a factory jacketed flat point that comes almost flush in my TL 45 colt is 1.59. It is 1.647 from the face of a 45acp recoil shield to the face of barrel extension, which is the same distance on a 25-3. (That is why a 25-3 or N frame 357 will work in them without trimming barrel extension (forcing cone is inside of extension) I have a bunch of S&W 45 acps too, BTW. My cast rounds using the crimp groove are 1.695

By the way I have the SAAMI standards for both handgun and rifles on my computer. The SAAMI "standard OAL for the 45 Colt is 1.515-1.600. Hmm those factor Revolution rounds are longer than the "standard". How can that be???? I suggest you read the introductory to SAAMI where it states "The use of American National Standards is completely voluntary; their existence does not in any respect preclude anyone, whether he has approved the standards or not, from manufacturing, marketing, purchasing, or using products, processes, or procedures not conforming to the standards."

The longer 45 colt cylinders used in the 25-5 didn't exist when the 25-3 came out either. S&W fixed that just over 2 years later when they came out with the 25-5. Why do you think they did that, to waste materials and create more work. All the 45 colts blue or stainless since have the longer cylinder. Half way though 25-5 production they also started making the 45 cylinders with .452 throats. The 25-3 and earlier ones are well known to have oversized throats usually running from .454 to .458 which is detrimental to accuracy with lead bullets unless you run oversize bullets. Want to know for sure check your cylinders with pin gauges like I do. Then shoot them in a ransom rest to know their true accuracy, like I do.

I spend over a hour a week at the handgun range, sometimes way more, I fire a min of 50 rounds a week. I often spend a couple days at a time in my shop working and building Custom S&W revolvers. My favorite round is the 45 colt.

Your Lyman manual is written so ammo made from it will work and function safely in all 45 colts. That is why it has the OAL it had and the powder charges with a 14,000cup pressure limit.

Just like the "Ruger Only" loads that are included in many manuals that are close to being not within SAAMI standards. neither are my S&W loads. The 25-2 45acp is rated for 23,000psi +p loads, a 45 colt cylinder has the exact same OD, the same ID, just a longer section of it. Just why on earth would on contain 23,000 psi and not the other. LOL A actual pressure vessel engineer I know (I used to be supervision in an oil refinery) said there is no reason what so ever and the longer chamber should handle pressure spikes a bit better anyway.

My point is SAAMI standards OAL etc are not written in and stone. Plus, the information in a loading manual is their opinion, limited by their liability attorneys knowing they have to be safe for every gun that that round can be chambered in.

And yes, I resent you calling BS on me. I am way way to familiar with S&W 45 colts to not know what I am talking about with this issue.

You barked up the wrong tree on this one.

[Model19man]

SAAMI SPECS:

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

Lyman reloading manual:
Lyman 51st Edition Reloading Handbook Manual - Softcover 9816053 FREE SHIP!! 11516960535 | eBay

[steelslaver]

I know the SAAMI specs I keep the PFDs for them on my desk top

TRY reading page 3 of the the introduction to them where it clearly states.

The use of American National Standards is completely voluntary; their existence does not in any respect preclude anyone, whether he has approved the standards or not, from manufacturing, marketing, purchasing, or using products, processes, or procedures not conforming to the standards.

Lyman is hardly the very last word in reloading specs. I have stacks of reloading manuals. I can show you maximums in one that are exceeded in others.

I fail to see why you are so hung up on their numbers and your mistaken belief all ammo and bullets conforms to them

In other words as I have repeatedly tried to explain to you, they are just standards and no company or person is held to them. They are not laws or even hard and fast rules. Lots of guns can handle over length cartridges and do. The bench rest guns regularly load longer than SAAMI do their bullet just touched land for better accuracy.

Once again my offer of bullets stands.

[StrawHat]

steelslaver,

Do NOT feed the troll.

Kevin

[steelslaver]

Ya, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by steelslaver

Ya, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him THINK it

Fixed it for you!

Kevin

[Model19man]

I don't think I said that I adhere to those standards - I just said that the ammo I loaded does. And all factory loaded ammo does that I have ever come in contact with. The ammo meets SAAMI standards, and the cylinder on my 25-2 and 25-3 do as well. You seem to want to crimp the 454424 in the lube grooves which is NOT what SAAMI says to do, but it will work in a Ruger revolver with an over S&W level of propellant. It's not something that Lyman or SAAMI recommends. The Keith bullet has lube grooves and driving lands.

You deciding to crimp into a lube groove is what you can do by ignoring the OAL specs in Lyman's latest reloading manual and in the SAAMI specs.

[steelslaver]

You just keep using your outdated gun and information and you will be just fine if you so not buy any factory Leverevolution ammo.

Some of us chose to grow and use more improved equipment and loads for modern guns instead of being limited by data that is designed to chamber and fire safely in 125 year old antiques. A few hard head people do not.

[Model19man]

I don't understand why you accuse me of using old technology when my revolver was sold new to me in the 1980's. The Hornady ammo conforms to SAAMI specs so it should fit and work fine too. I actually have a box of their flex tip .44 caliber bullets, just waiting for good data to load them. My Lyman manual contains the latest data - not what you describe.

I don't buy factory ammo any more because there's no reason for buying anything at inflated prices when the components are already on my shelf.

[steelslaver]

Ya your gun is outdated. The firrst actual production run of 45 colts by S&W was the 25-3 in and that was in late 1976-1977 before they UPDATED the 45 colt model in 1978 with the 25-5 The UPDATE being the longer cylinder. Every single 45 colt made since, blue, nickle or stainless runs the longer cylinder. Just why do you think that is??? If you bought have a 25-3 cylinder it was built in 1977 and is now a 45 year old. It is also a well know FACT thaty most of the 25-3 and prior cylinders had oversize throats in the .454-.458 range and the oversized throat issue lasted until the middle of the 25-5 run. Don't believe me? Get a set of pin gauges and actually check your cylinder. My one set goes from .250 to .500 by .001

I also find it hilarious that you believe that the top groov on the mold I use is for lubrication and it is for crimping only if falls with in the SAAMI OAL

Also I gave you the actual OAL of a the Factory Leveroulution rounds I have. If you have a set of calipers, and can figure out how to use them properly, measure from your firing pin bushing to the rear of your barrel extension. They absolutely will be longer than that.

Read carefully and I will use small words one last time. SAAMI and mosr loading manuals use data that is safe for use all 45 colts including in the outdated 1873 Colt SAA and out dated 25-3 short cylinders. The OAL is also so the rounds will function in the shorted outdated cylinders.

GOOD BYE LOL