What Came In The S&W Box?

I like firearms that look as close to new as possible. When I purchase a handgun I often will pay more for a specimen that is in its factory box. That raises a question I have not seen any answers to.

Q) Does anyone know where I can find a list of box contents for various older (1940s-1980s) S&W revolvers, when purchased new?

As an example, I am looking at several J-Frames. Models 36, 38, 40, 49, 60, etc. I am not interested in the later California lock guns.

Other than just observing different models for sale with their box, the contents seem to often be different. Paperwork, wax wrapping sheet, cleaning equipment.

Hoping to find what the exact likely contents were for specific models and year of production...... A perfect example is the plastic bag containing the cleaning rod and handle. Sometimes a S&W screwdriver, sometimes not. Sometimes a bronze brush, sometimes a SS brush.

Hoping someone has a line on this portion of the collecting hobby. Thanks!

Good luck! An entire book could be dedicated to this topic and it still wouldn't be comprehensive.

There were a number of different Helpful Hints brochures, Parts Lists, brushes/cleaning kits and sight adjustment tools over the years. A variety of pamphlets were included with guns from the late '60's on. Even the cleaning kit bags and rods changed over time. Some loop rods were steel. Early cleaning kit bags were made from a wax paper like material.

I can tell you that brush and swab bases changed from brass to aluminum in the mid-1970's. Sight adjustment tools (screwdrivers) were only supplied with adjustable sight guns. The Parts Lists included with specific model guns were dated.

There are a lot of fake labels and added boxes/cleaning kits offered as original. I haven't seen it with S&W yet, but a number of Colt and Winchester boxes are/have been counterfeited. You can always ask questions about specific guns here, but by then it's probably too late. Learn as much as you can before purchasing and use your best judgement. Buyer beware!

I'd recommend following what you generally feel is complete, based on other NIB/LNIB listings. It can get crazy complicated to be whole, when there are so many unknowns...and I don't know if anyone knows...truly.

For instance, did you know in the late 50's the S&W distributor location in Canada was going to change and they stamped the papers 'NEW ADDRESS TO BE DETERMINED'? How many 5-screws did this impact under this scenario; who could prove one way or another? Some will think: Who cares?

I think your best bet is again to look at the auction sites for purported NIB/LNIB and check for patterns and use best judgement.

Ok, thanks. Speaking strictly about the J-Fame however, still seeing some confusion though. Most images I have seen of such J-Frames "In the box" appear to have only the short cleaning rod & a bore brush enclosed in a narrow plastic bag.

But, looking at an American Rifleman page online, I see a Model 49 that is listed as Excellent, with a bag containing: Cleaning Rod, Bore Brush, Bore Mop, & a Screwdriver.

Here is that link: This Old Gun: Smith & Wesson Model 49 Bodyguard | An Official Journal Of The NRA

I guess they can be taken too. It makes sense that no screwdriver would be included with a revolver that did not have adjustable sights. Or, was the screwdriver also for the side-plate screws????????????

I have the boxes and revolvers from 2 I personally purchased new (J & K frames) in early and mid 1970's. Have everything with the boxes except the cleaning kits. Like everyone else I removed and used them………..

Since it is listed as a sight adjustment tool and not a screwdriver, I don't think it was intended for side plate screws.

Thanks, can you point me to a document where it is listed as such.

The length of the cleaning rod in the tools kit should match the barrel length.
The aluminum loop end cleaning rod changed to a straight cleaning rod in the late 80s and the Sight Adjustment tool changed from the screwdriver profile to flat steel type.
The included tools kits may have ended in 1990?

StakeOut said:

The length of the cleaning rod in the tools kit should match the barrel length.
The aluminum loop end cleaning rod changed to a straight cleaning rod in the late 80s and the Sight Adjustment tool changed from the screwdriver profile to flat steel type.
The included tools kits may have ended in 1990?

Click to expand...

Didn't the SATs go through a period where they were a disc with four blades around the perimeter, or were these just promotional item?
Froggie

Green Frog said:

Didn't the SATs go through a period where they were a disc with four blades around the perimeter, or were these just promotional item?
Froggie

Click to expand...

Yes,that's the flat steel ones and the last of the SATs to be included in the tools kit before the end of included tools kit
My recently sold Model of 1988 625-2 that shipped in 1989 had the straight rod and flat metal SAT.
The Model 631 that shipped in 1990 pictured below has the straight rod and no SAT.

Ok, in looking I have found what appears would be a great forum thread on this subject (SAT's), but it does not work. It is at least 2014 or earlier so? Some of the threads that reference this link also indicate that others have also not been able to get to it. Anyone out there who can see why this might be?

http://smith-wessonforum.com/blogs/...ustment-tool-identification-screwdrivers.html

As stated earlier, good luck.

btvarner said:

Ok, in looking I have found what appears would be a great forum thread on this subject (SAT's), but it does not work.

Click to expand...

This link has some good information.

S&W Screwdrivers

These are some of the orphaned S&W tool kits, cleaning rods and SAT's I've accumulated. It shows some of the variations, but it's far from comprehensive.







It's hard to tell from the photo, but the fluted aluminum handled SAT's came in two varieties; flat and hollow grind. Flat grind was the earliest and only offered for a few years. The different lengths were manufacturing variations, not changes.

btvarner said:

Thanks, can you point me to a document where it is listed as such.

Click to expand...

Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 4th Ed.,
Supica & Nahas, Kraus Publications, Iola, Wisc., 2016

Page 55

There's also a brief discussion of cleaning rods, but I think you've
gotten more info in this thread than the book covers.

You're obviously a S&W nut. The book is about the best resource
you can find to feed your hobby's appetite. Since you also seem
to be a J-frame nerd (certainly not a derogatory term) I'd also
suggest Roy Jinks book, History of Smith & Wesson,
Beinfield Publishing, North Hollywood, Calif., 1977

Chapter XIII

Thanks all !!

To me, you can usually find the older tools, pamphlets, and other manuals or paperwork, but finding the correct vapor paper is next to impossible! I guess that was the first thing that got thrown away even if the boxes, tools, and other paperwork were kept.
Larry

This blog page hasn't worked for a couple of years:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/blogs/f...ewdrivers.html

And there was a lot of information and photos in many "Commentaries".

But there's also a ton of threads about the tools and paper you're looking for, just do some searches. Here's one link:
Various Screwdrivers I dug up - Need some ID help


Here's a Commentary about SAT use chronology from the SAT Commentary that I had copied long ago just in case of this very circumstance, since it's no longer accessible. Unfortunately the photo links no longer work. But I can send them by email if you post your email here or in a PM (private message).

_________________________________
SMITH & WESSON SIGHT ADJUSTMENT TOOLS (erroneously and generically called screwdrivers)

First tool: 1876 Combination screwdriver/wrench shown Pg 30, SCSW, 3rd ed., w/Baby Russian, 38 SA 1st Model or Model #2 - 1st Model Pg 80-81, value $2-400 in 2006. All SATs Pg 34.
Oiler: See also oiler in cased sets, Pg 76.

1881-1920: One of the early issued tools was a screwdriver with a hollow brass handle that contained four (4) interchangeable blades, used from about 1880 to about 1920. Earliest pieces were non-plated brass followed by a nickel plated version. Late versions had a smaller diameter handle and knurled nut added to hold the blade in place when it was inserted into the handle. This style S.A.T. was an accessory (optional) item.

1899-1902 estimated: Maple handle with blued steel shaft and hollow ground blade. The S.A.T. pictured was documented as being shipped with a .38 H.E. M&P 1st Model.

1921-1939: Nickel handle with (7) bands of knurling, black shaft, and long tapered narrow blade. These S.A.T.s are 2/3 the size of the nickel S.A.T. 1940-1948.

1925–1936: The 4th Model Single Shot Target, (Straight Line Target) was issued with a special precision SAT, unique to this model (possibly the cleaning rod as well), and rarely seen. Made by The L.S. Starrett Co. in Athol Mass., U.S.A.

1940-1948: Nickel plated steel knurled handle with (9) bands of knurling, black shaft and long tapered blade.
Note: These go back to 1940 because they were first issued with pre WWII 2nd model K-22s (K22/40 1st model Masterpiece) which was the only pre war model and first fitted with micro click style sights.

1947-1958: Black steel knurled handle with (8) or (9) bands of knurling, black oxide shaft and long tapered blade. Variations: At least two (8 & 9 bands) post war variations exist specifically for the pre 1948 K and pre 1950 N frame Transitional Target models, pre 1953 Transitional Kit Gun, and 1957 Transitional .32 Reg Police Target Model that all used a pre war style sight. This S.A.T. has a long tapered blade with the very narrow tip to fit the pre war style sights and the reason they go all the way to 1958.
Exception: A few of these S.A.T.s may have been issued before 1947 with latest shipped pre WWII 2nd Model K-22s (K22/40 1st Model Masterpiece).

1956-1960: Aluminum knurled handle with (8) or (9) bands of knurling, black oxide shaft and long tapered blade.

1960-1964: Aluminum fluted-handle, black oxide shaft and long tapered blade.

1964-1988: Aluminum fluted-handle, black oxide shaft and short hollow ground blade.

1988-1991: Flat circular nickel plated steel keychain style with (4) blades.

1991-Present: Flat oval blued steel keychain style with (2) blades.

Modern: Special HE models were issued with facsimiles of the earlier handled variety SATs.


IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT THE ABOVE LISTING IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF HARD AND FAST RULES. THE S.A.T.s, AS WITH BOXES, WERE INTERMIXED DURING CERTAIN TIME PERIODS AND FROM TIME TO TIME WE DO SEE WHAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN UNORTHODOX STYLE S.A.T. BEING SUPPLIED DURING A GIVEN TIME PERIOD.