Range report/ BIG problem with M27 conversion

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PaulFowler

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Okay guys I took my newly acquired Model 27-2 (converted to .44 special)to the range today for a test shoot. I was puzzled that at 25 yards. I wasn’t even on the target. It seemed to be shooting way high (like 10”!!) and off to the left. I put about 30 rounds through it. And results were disappointing.
I decided to stop and take a good look at things and discovered that I could move the barrel about a 16th of an inch or more by hand! It appears that the barrel pin is keeping it from further movement.
I don’t know if the shop I got it from will take it back, so what are my options to get this fixed??

Thanks in advance.

Paul
 
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If you are talking about rotational movement only, it's an easy fix. Tap out the pin with a pin punch, unscrew the barrel, and clean the barrel and frame threads with acetone, brake parts cleaner, or similar solvent. Once that dries completely, coat both threads with #242 blue Loctite (medium strength), mop up excess Loctite, reassemble, and orient the front sight exactly vertical. Leave it undisturbed overnight or 1 day. All done.
 
I'd check the bbl/cyl gap with the bbl clocked at 12 o'clock and make sure it's within a measurement acceptible.
Plus make sure the bbl face is square and the forceing cone is OK.
It all may have been worked on/over in the conversion and who knows where it stands now.

If the rear face is square and the FCone is OK but the gap is tight,, it is then fixable by cutting the bbl breech end back to an acceptible cyl clearance.
Too much clearance leaves you with another problem still of moving the bbl back at least one thread.

If it's all simply fixable by turning the bbl in the frame and clocking the bbl straight up,,then the Locktite will work.

Though I'd rather take the time to peen the bbl threads ever so lightly forward around the entire shank,,toward the muzzle. Just an old school way of doing the same job.
That will draw the bbl in quicker when threaded back into the frame. done correctly it will give you about a 1/4 turn of torque needed with a bbl wrench to tighten the bbl tight up to the face of the frame.
You may end up with a cyl/bbl gap that is too tight with this method and need to shave the rear face of the bbl off,,maybe not.

There are many threaded assemblys in todays mechanisms that are held fast together with different specialty formulas like locktite.

It is (or was) a very common way to tighten the bbl to recv'r thread on firearms and works perfectly. It just takes a bit of time/patience to do.
Simple tools,,a small flat faced punch shaped to fit the face of the V thread and a small hammer. A bench vise to hold the bbl.
 
Last edited:
Thanks so much for the replies. I’ll drift the pin out thus evening and see what I’m dealing with. I’ll let you know how it goes.

Paul
 
Once again proves my point that the barrel pin does little to nothing.

IF it were mine I would turn the barrel shoulder back enough to get it to torque up one turn farther in. This would also allow me to set the B/C gap to exactly what I want and get a fresh forcing cone

The loctite will probably do a good job though

I have also used the peen the back shoulder face and or frame around where the barrel meets it. The idea is to use a small punch which will raise a bit of metal around each punch mark.

S&W uses 36 to the inch threads. One complete turn is .02777 and 1/4 turn is just .007, an 1/8 is .0035. A sheet of printer paper is about .004 thick so you are not talking about very much
 
Okay. I drifted the pin out and the barrel was pretty loose. I could get it to turn hand tight to the point where the barrel just slightly past proper alignment. If I knew someone proficient with a lathe I think the idea of turning the shoulder down to allow another turn WOULD be the best solution.
Lock tite will probably work. The good news is that the barrel threads look good as does the forcing cone. In the past I used to build FN- FALS and I would time my barrels by turning the shoulder down with needle files until I got to about 11 o’clock and then torque them the rest of the way. Not sure about using this technique on a revolver although it’s basically the same operation.
How would I reset the cylinder gap after the barrel was installed?

Thanks

Paul
 
I fit an N frame barrel with hand files. Yes, it takes time and a steady hand. (At that time, I had more time than money.)

Once you get the barrel set back one thread, if you need to adjust the b/c gap, you use the file to remove some of the barrel. I would take one pass and then check things. Keep the face of the cone parallel to the face of the cylinder. Time, patience and check your work often!

Kevin
 
StrawHat said:
I fit an N frame barrel with hand files. Yes, it takes time and a steady hand. (At that time, I had more time than money.)

Once you get the barrel set back one thread, if you need to adjust the b/c gap, you use the file to remove some of the barrel. I would take one pass and then check things. Keep the face of the cone parallel to the face of the cylinder. Time, patience and check your work often!

Kevin
Click to expand...

Kevin,

I think that’s what I’m leaning towards. Getting it set back one more complete turn as it will already go to about 1 o’clock by hand. I was thinking of using a stone to remove material from the barrel to set the barrel gap. I find the larger flat surface of a stone makes it easier to keep things square. I use stones to fit 1911 slides to frames with great results.

Thanks so much for the info!

Paul
 
My method of turning the shoulder back. There is a piece of all thread between the 2 centers
u36nK3d.jpg

If you could get some brass centers turned you could chuck it up in a drill press instead of a lathe and use a file.

You need a file to set the rear of barrel back. It would take forever to remove .0277+- with a stone. You could remove the majority of this before reinstalling the barrel. You also need to file back the cross notch in the threads for the pin

There is a tool for this, where a rod inserts own the barrel and and a cutter attaches to first cut the rear barrel face, then you change the cutter to a tapered one to redo the forcing cone.

I would help you out, but I am leaving for a 6-8 week job in the morning.
 
Turning to hand tight just past 12 oclock is a perfect specimen for peening the threads to draw up the bbl tighter when screwed back in.


I may not have been too clear about the process I was describing above..
I'm not talking about peening down the bbl shoulder or the shoulder on the frame at all.
Those area get left completely alone.

This is done by working very delicatley on the sides of the V shape of the bbl threads itself.

The standing V shape of the bbl thread is very slightly peened (or a better word is probably swaged) forward,,toward the muzzle.

The process is done on the entire spiral length of the thread starting at the breach end and ending at the bbl shoulder. Around and around the thread.

A small flat faced punch, narrow enough to lay down in the thread and up against the V on the face is then walked around the thread and lightly punched to swage the entire thread forward. The actual amt the thread moves is probably a .000 or so at best. I've never measured it.

Don't get to heavy handed as you can upset the tpi too much and the bbl will have difficulty re-installing.
You are just taking up some of the looseness in the less than perfect thread fit allowed in the bbl/frame joint by the process. This making the bbl drawup/turn in slightly quicker.

It will give you about a 1/4 turn or so draw up on that loose bbl.

It's a handy way to tighten up loose TD jointed firearms like the Winchester LA rifles.
Treat these as a solid frame after doing this though as repeated TD will again loosen the reformed threads on these.

I just 'fixed' an early Mod 52 Win parts rifle that had been taken apart and worked on somewhat. Converted to speedlock,,kind of,, and a start at a Sporter build that thankfull didn't go far.
The orig Bbl had been removed and replaced several times it looked like and now over clocked a small amt.

I re-installed the bbl to a tight wrench & bbl vise fit with the above method.
No lenghty & bothersome cutting back, rechambering, refitting necessary.
No hint of any thing having been done when looking at the bbl or recv'r
 
steelslaver said:
…

You need a file to set the rear of barrel back. It would take forever to remove .0277+- with a stone. You could remove the majority of this before reinstalling the barrel. You also need to file back the cross notch in the threads for the pin
…
Click to expand...

I often thought that a hardened nut with an index mark would be helpful for this work.

steelslaver said:
…
I would help you out, but I am leaving for a 6-8 week job in the morning.
Click to expand...

A very generous offer!

Kevin
 
2152hq said:
Turning to hand tight just past 12 oclock is a perfect specimen for peening the threads to draw up the bbl tighter when screwed back in.


I may not have been too clear about the process I was describing above..
I'm not talking about peening down the bbl shoulder or the shoulder on the frame at all.
Those area get left completely alone.

This is done by working very delicatley on the sides of the V shape of the bbl threads itself.

The standing V shape of the bbl thread is very slightly peened (or a better word is probably swaged) forward,,toward the muzzle.

The process is done on the entire spiral length of the thread starting at the breach end and ending at the bbl shoulder. Around and around the thread.

A small flat faced punch, narrow enough to lay down in the thread and up against the V on the face is then walked around the thread and lightly punched to swage the entire thread forward. The actual amt the thread moves is probably a .000 or so at best. I've never measured it.

Don't get to heavy handed as you can upset the tpi too much and the bbl will have difficulty re-installing.
You are just taking up some of the looseness in the less than perfect thread fit allowed in the bbl/frame joint by the process. This making the bbl drawup/turn in slightly quicker.

It will give you about a 1/4 turn or so draw up on that loose bbl.

It's a handy way to tighten up loose TD jointed firearms like the Winchester LA rifles.
Treat these as a solid frame after doing this though as repeated TD will again loosen the reformed threads on these.

I just 'fixed' an early Mod 52 Win parts rifle that had been taken apart and worked on somewhat. Converted to speedlock,,kind of,, and a start at a Sporter build that thankfull didn't go far.
The orig Bbl had been removed and replaced several times it looked like and now over clocked a small amt.

I re-installed the bbl to a tight wrench & bbl vise fit with the above method.
No lenghty & bothersome cutting back, rechambering, refitting necessary.
No hint of any thing having been done when looking at the bbl or recv'r
Click to expand...

Another arrow in my quiver! Although, at 70, I have few projects left that I will be taking on.

Kevin
 
You have three options.

1. Blue Loctite on the barrel threads and reinstall.
2. Peen the barrel threads and reinstall.
3. Have the barrel turned back so that it can be properly torqued into the frame, then adjust the barrel-cylinder gap.

Of the three options, number 3 is the most difficult and expensive, but is the option that provides a permanent fix that you will never have to worry about.
 
stansdds said:
You have three options.

1. Blue Loctite on the barrel threads and reinstall.
2. Peen the barrel threads and reinstall.
3. Have the barrel turned back so that it can be properly torqued into the frame, then adjust the barrel-cylinder gap.

Of the three options, number 3 is the most difficult and expensive, but is the option that provides a permanent fix that you will never have to worry about.
Click to expand...

I am not sure peening the threads would make for a permanent fix as the peening might get reformed under constant recoil. Blue Locktite would more than likely be the fastest, cleanest and easiest way to go but might not hold long term - not sure because of pressure and heat generated. Screwing the barrel in 1 turn is IMHO the best and most professional way to do it. While most here do not own lathes, a file and stone in conjunction with steady hands works just fine. Remember to leave the test fit a bit short of 360º so you can properly tighten the barrel - or else you will be past the 12:00 perfect position and will be back to square one in short order.

If you are mechanically inclined, have a few good files, sandpaper and an Arkansas stone I'd bet you could do an admirable job as it is not terribly difficult. If you decide to not do it that way, then the Locktite would be the next best method. Worst case scenario if it did loosen up again, just clean it off and repeat. I never liked peening the threads on anything.
 
I really appreciate all of the informative replies and the collective knowledge of the group, as well as the offer to help!
I’m going to clean everything up thoroughly today and give it some thought. As I said Ive barreled many FALs and the process is pretty similar.
I’ll keep you guys updated and again I REALLY appreciate you guys sharing your knowledge.

Paul
 
Update.
Thanks so much for all of the information and time put into helping figure this out.
I contacted the shop this morning and spoke to them about the situation and they told me to bring it in and that they had two gunsmiths on the premises and they would make it right.
So, I drove up and dropped the pistol off and was given a tour of the gunsmith shop. I was pretty impressed by the well-equipped shop and one of the smiths has 58 years of experience. I was assured the job would be done correctly.
I feel very good about the interaction. That being said I wasn’t sure what the outcome was going to be and I wanted to be prepared to handle it myself if need be. You guys were such a great help in educating me about what needed to happen and my options for getting it done.
I wanted to be to thank you all for all of the valuable information and support. I feel that with all of the information I was given I would have been well equipped to make the repair on my own.
Again, thank you all for your time and generosity! I’ll keep you informed about the outcome.

Paul
 
PaulFowler said:
Update.
Thanks so much for all of the information and time put into helping figure this out.
I contacted the shop this morning and spoke to them about the situation and they told me to bring it in and that they had two gunsmiths on the premises and they would make it right.
So, I drove up and dropped the pistol off and was given a tour of the gunsmith shop. I was pretty impressed by the well-equipped shop and one of the smiths has 58 years of experience. I was assured the job would be done correctly.
I feel very good about the interaction. That being said I wasn’t sure what the outcome was going to be and I wanted to be prepared to handle it myself if need be. You guys were such a great help in educating me about what needed to happen and my options for getting it done.
I wanted to be to thank you all for all of the valuable information and support. I feel that with all of the information I was given I would have been well equipped to make the repair on my own.
Again, thank you all for your time and generosity! I’ll keep you informed about the outcome.

Paul
Click to expand...

Although no one likes their revolver (or any gun for that matter) to break, go out of adjustment or need repair work, I look at times like this as an opportunity to learn and become self reliant. Once you learn how to do something it becomes a small inconvenience instead of a big hassle, expense and stress. It also becomes a way of feeling satisfied that you did the repair yourself and are fully capable to handle a job like that again. This in turn builds confidence and skills. Oh, BTW it helps build my tool collection as well! :D Going forward, there will be less qualified, skilled and reputable GS's to do the repairs, more expenses and regulations regarding shipping, long wait times and of course higher prices. If I can do something myself - why not?

While this may sound conceded (I sincerely do not mean it to) when I do a repair job I take my time, go very slow, especially if it is the first time repairing a particular issue, and get the job done properly. I also do the research first. There have been only a very few instances over decades that I made a mistake and thankfully it did not cost me a whole lot, but I will never repeat that mistake again and learn from it. That is called a learning curve. Most times the repair I will do turns out better than any GS would do it. Not because I am a better GS or have more experience, but I am not concerned about how long said repair takes. I do not get paid by the hour and do not make my living doing this. The speed of the repair comes with more experience and I am not concerned about speed at all.

Over the years I've built up enough parts inventory and have developed enough experience and skills to repair pretty much anything that can be repaired. There are a few things I will not do and the major one is Bluing and Nickeling. I rarely do that anyway.

I do understand there are Guys and Gals out there that for one reason or another want no part of doing GS-ing repairs themselves - got it. Unfortunately they will have to grin and bare all that comes with entrusting someone with their guns while hoping for the best.
 
2152hq said:
Turning to hand tight just past 12 oclock is a perfect specimen for peening the threads to draw up the bbl tighter when screwed back in.


I may not have been too clear about the process I was describing above..
I'm not talking about peening down the bbl shoulder or the shoulder on the frame at all.
Those area get left completely alone.

This is done by working very delicatley on the sides of the V shape of the bbl threads itself.

The standing V shape of the bbl thread is very slightly peened (or a better word is probably swaged) forward,,toward the muzzle.

The process is done on the entire spiral length of the thread starting at the breach end and ending at the bbl shoulder. Around and around the thread.

A small flat faced punch, narrow enough to lay down in the thread and up against the V on the face is then walked around the thread and lightly punched to swage the entire thread forward. The actual amt the thread moves is probably a .000 or so at best. I've never measured it.

Don't get to heavy handed as you can upset the tpi too much and the bbl will have difficulty re-installing.
You are just taking up some of the looseness in the less than perfect thread fit allowed in the bbl/frame joint by the process. This making the bbl drawup/turn in slightly quicker.

It will give you about a 1/4 turn or so draw up on that loose bbl.

It's a handy way to tighten up loose TD jointed firearms like the Winchester LA rifles.
Treat these as a solid frame after doing this though as repeated TD will again loosen the reformed threads on these.

I just 'fixed' an early Mod 52 Win parts rifle that had been taken apart and worked on somewhat. Converted to speedlock,,kind of,, and a start at a Sporter build that thankfull didn't go far.
The orig Bbl had been removed and replaced several times it looked like and now over clocked a small amt.

I re-installed the bbl to a tight wrench & bbl vise fit with the above method.
No lenghty & bothersome cutting back, rechambering, refitting necessary.
No hint of any thing having been done when looking at the bbl or recv'r
Click to expand...

An interesting approach I had never heard of. I can see how it would work great on heavier rifle barrel threads, It would take a while and more finis with 36 to the inch threads, but should work and once complete a very permanent fix. I have a piece of tool steel I tapped and hardened when making some N frame taps Unlike a normal die it has no reliefs. I am thinking that if I supported it ran a barrel in it a couple threads and then gave the muzzle a good pop with a brass hammer, then ran the barrel in a couple more threads and gave it another pop and continued until I was out of threads, I would accomplish the same thing.

I am going to try it if I run into a loose fit again
 
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