I have just accquired a 28-2 that the barrel has turned "Plum", just the barrel not the rest of the gun.. looks perfect.. but plum??
Can anyone tell me why? this happens.. I have seen it once or twice on other Smiths..
THX
Sal

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

Per my learned collegue (johnlevick ) the cause is properly attributed to silica in the steel..


"that plum coloration is a result of a slight excess of silica in the steel,and not WD40. "

The Internet has also spawned the WD-40 caused it..

I share John's skepticisim about that particular cause..

I've used it extensively as a wipe down agent without a problem.

Huh. I get quoted in the first reply, and this is the first time I've looked at this thread! Looks like most of the queries have been answered. I'd just add that while I'm not a metallurgist, the effect of silicon causing the "plum" color was originally explained to me by an old gunsmith who does some of the most beautiful hot bluing I've ever seen, and was confirmed by folks at Essex Arms and Caspian, both of whom manufacture cast 1911 frames. I originally asked the question after my old gunsmith friend blued an Essex frame for me, and it came out of the tank plum colored. Other parts of other guns, including the forged slide I'd fit to the Essex frame, coming out of the same tank at the same time, came out a beautiful, deep blue. Obviously, it's not the bluing salts. It had no WD-40 applied, so it's obviously not that either. And no, WD-40 has no silicone in it, nor silicon, for that matter.

Hot tank bluing in nitrate salts is a controlled rusting process where the desired dark blue/black color is achieved by carefully controlled temperatures and solution concentrations. If the operator deviates even slightly from these controlled temperatures and solution concentrations, the result is plum or reddish color that can change as it ages. Bluing solutions wear out or get contaminated when used. Contamination occurs from drippings from rinse and cleaning baths. Improper temperature maintenance can leave the black oxide layer porous and subject to further microrusting as it ages, with resulting color changes. Worn out solutions come from failure to carefully monitor solution chemistry or rushed production where the bluing bath is pushed beyond normal use.

Since S&W (and other manufacturers) do batch bluing of parts, not complete guns, there will be the occasional mis-match of blued parts. Usually not enough to cause inspection rejection or make customers howl, but enough to notice.

I bet it's plum purty.

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NRA Lifetime Member

Gunsmiths journals and references indicate strong connection between using WD-40 as a rust prevenative on unblued steel to erratic coloration after bluing. It's the silicone oil in WD-40 and not "silica" that is the culprit. Silica is the main ingredient in common beach sand. What is it doing in steel?

Silicon - MSN Encarta


Silicon, symbol Si, semimetallic element that is the second most common element on Earth, after oxygen. The atomic number of silicon is 14. Silicon is in group 14 (or IVa) of the periodic table (see Periodic Law). It was first isolated from its compounds in 1823 by the Swedish chemist Baron Jöns Jakob Berzelius. The element’s name comes from the Latin word for flint, a mineral that contains silicon.

Silicon is prepared as a brown amorphous powder or as gray-black crystals. It is obtained by heating silica, or silicon dioxide (SiO2), with a reducing agent, such as carbon or magnesium,

Silicon is used in the steel industry as a constituent of silicon-steel alloys. In steelmaking, molten steel is deoxidized by the addition of small amounts of silicon; ordinary steel contains less than 0.03 percent of silicon. Silicon steel, which contains from 2.5 to 4 percent silicon, is used in making the cores of electrical transformers because the alloy exhibits low hysteresis (see Magnetism). A steel alloy, known as duriron, containing about 15 percent silicon, is hard, brittle, and resistant to corrosion; duriron is used in industrial equipment that comes in contact with corrosive chemicals. Silicon is also used as an alloy in copper, brass, and bronze.

http://www.azom.com/Details.asp?ArticleID=1114

Most silicon is produced as a ferroalloy either ferrosilicon or silicon manganese, which is used exclusively in steel making. Silicon, as ferroalloy, is the most important deoxidiser in steel making. Semiconductor silicon is made mostly by reacting powdered crude metal with a gaseous mixture of hydrogen and hydrogen chloride in a fluidised bed. The main product SiHCl3 is fractionally distilled then reduced by hydrogen and is then deposited on a pre silicon filament, which is heated to about 1150°C. Further purification may be done by zone refining if required. Dopants are generally added subsequent to crystal growth.




John,

Respectfully, I hope this answers your question.
Patrick

John
I don't believe there's silicone in WD 40 as it's made from animal fats. WD 40 is ~ "Water Displacement 40th attempt". I use it as a cleaner and not for lubrication.

This is off their website:

(quote)
What does WD-40 contain?
While the ingredients in WD-40 are secret, we can tell you what WD-40 does NOT contain. WD-40 does not contain silicone, kerosene, water, wax, graphite, chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), or any known cancer-causing agents. (quote)

Y Model 12's were known for the receiver turning plum and some believe the plum color is an indication of a possible re-blue. I've saw cylinders on a few S&W revolvers that were a tad plum color and was doubtful they were reblued. There's probably no and iron-clad rule to the plum color. It seems to appear years later??

Regards:
Rod

I noticed my model 29-3 unfortunately had a plum colored barrel when I bought it last year.
The price was right and its not a show piece but a shooter. (Although it is in excellent condition).
What can I say?....Im Plum Crazy.
BTW, in ordinary incandescent light it is virtually unnoticeable.
Some bright lights and flash photography bring it out.

Here are a few shots of the same gun , It really shows in some. Others not so much.
They were all taken with the same camera on different days with different backgrounds.
It is all a mystery to me.
Cheers

I have a model 17-4 that has some plum color on the cylinder. The gun was in 99% condition when I bought it and quite frankly I wasn't bothered by the slight coloration.

ditrina/sal ,

Just for the record( and as a side note) WD-40 is not my 1st choice for any firearms applications.
I use it as a quick wipe for a wet gun in the field..always seems to be around .
That being said: it is not IMHO the culprit in the the plum color on most smiths.
Others respectfully will disagree..

Thanks.
Patrick.

as you can see from the picture(3rd one down)that this 17-3 has a plum cylinder. i like it, from what i can tell it left the factory that way...

Attached Images

IM000337.jpg (114.5 KB, 856 views)

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George Jamison

Hello
I sent a friend to a refinisher I knew to have his Pre-War Heavy Duty refinished. A Year afterwards, it's cylinder started turning Plum in color. My friend told me of it, I contacted the refinisher and he refinished the cylinder again so now it match's his revolver. I asked the refinisher why this happened and he explained the bluing salts got just a little too weak and the fact they must not have had the cylinder Hot enough when they blued it, is what attributed to it's Plum color. He shared with me that the Older S&W revolver's had much more Nickel content in their steel and this is very hard to penetrate with Modern Bluing slats if they are off, or the part is not hot enough to accept them fully... Hammerdown

My Model 10 has a plum barrel, sometimes noticeable, sometimes not depending on the light. Looks just like the one pictured earlier in the thread.

Having been in the refinishing business for many years as well as doing work for some of the gun companies through our shops, all of the points ,views above ( except for the WD-40 comments) can and will be 'true" ,,,,this happens at times for ALL of the companies, and usually MORE of an issue with the Rugers, as they are "cast" 4140 chrome-moly and the batches made for these castings,MUST be "perfect" or the parts will 'plum' or 'streak as noted above.....nature of the beast...yes, for the MOST part,one must carfeully look at the gun,or the parts as this is a "fault" found all too often in aftermarket ,rebluing by many shops...have to look carefully (inspect) that the gun was NOT "improperly reblued"....
yes, the terminology of the wording for "sand" are all to often twisted, but for the most part,mean the same thing...its their application that changes for the process of the steel making itself, or the casting.......

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dan
NRA Benefactor,PMA

When some one figures it out , please post it I might want to turn some of mine purple .

I have been using WD-40 on my guns since about 1970 exclusively. I use it for cleaning and lubricating, and I clean my guns after every range session. Guns I have had since that time still show the the original blueing without fading or discoleration.
One must take care to reduce or eliminate the WD-40 inside carry guns as it can penetrate the primers. I have a small air compressor to blow unwanted WD-40 off and from the inside of the firearm. I also use WD-40 for long term storage and have never had any problem with rusting on any gun.
For lubrication of the slides on my semi automatics and on the inside of my revolvers I use Break Free CLP.
Just thought you would like to know.

Hello
I was told at Lowes Department store by the Lock Smith, to never use W-D 40 On a Key Lock. He shared with me that W-D 40 has a certain amount of Water in it's Chemical make up. I don't know if this is true, but I started using "Corrosion-X" What I use on all My revolver's and never had a problem after that... Corrosion-X also straightened out my Grandfather Clock that quit chiming and it has run flawless ever since. My vote goes to Corrosion-X Products..Hammerdown

My newly acquired K frame 3 inch model 13-3 has a plum barrel. I didn't even notice it in the shop. I observed it last night with a flashlight while he was having his bath.

It's ok...I still love him regardless of his little purple snout.

I use WD40 as a solvent and sometimes penetrant but not for lube or preservative/anti-corrosion. I don't think WD turns blueing plum though.

Since WD-40 has come up in the discussion, the chemical composition is shown here:

http://www.wd40.co.uk/media/adobe/WD...0datasheet.pdf

A lot of things can cause it.
I can attst to heat treatment changing how steel blues. If I do a blade in such a way that I only harden the edge by using a controlled depth quench, the hardened edge will blue much darker than the spine area, if I blue it. If I harden the whole blade then draw back the spine of the blade to a softer temper that blade will color differently than the edge quenched one. If I use 1095 high carbon and 15N20 (3%+ nickel) to make damascus the high carbon will blue deep and dark and it will hardly effect the high nickel content 15N20.

And this thread died nearly 9 years ago. Just sayin'.

I'm baaack.
Great chemistry lesson by kenpofan.

The thread may be dead in the eyes of some, but it's quite like reopening a cold case homicide, the issue still has really not been put to bed.....
I will add that a plum color on a piece is not necessarily an indication of a reblue, but for me, it is a red flag that goes up and I must look much closer to see if there are any other signs of a refinish. I have seen many refinished pieces show plum - I have owned several that were that way out of the factory door.

My recently purchased 10-5 snub has a bit of plum showing on the cylinder and barrel. Only shows in strong outdoor sun light.

Many years ago I had a neighbor who Blue guns once a year. He took an Iver Johnson 410 that I had for my son. It was old then. After trying three times to get the receiver to go black he gave up. He was so sorry it didn't work out. Well the bbl. and the hammer an trigger were beautiful black. The receiver was very plum. Very pretty gun !!!!!!!

You guys have already answered the long standing question and the "plum" color comes from you shooting the wrong variety of PLUM, or being too close, so back off to 25 yards.

There are 3 types of Plums, American (Blackamber), European (Seneca), Japanese (Satsuma). ALL are grown throughout the USA. Quit shootin at the Jap and Euro on the trees, and either pop for some regular targets, or switch the Blackamber American and that "oversplatter" won't cause you "no mo plum parts".

Tongue in cheek of course, but if the original manufacturer and designer of the actual plum fruit tree could not figure out what caused different color variations.....how is this Forum going to answer it for metal?

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Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

Well... I had several of my N-frames from the late 70's and early 80's where the barrels went plum on me after I put them in silicone impregnated bore stores for storage in my gun safe. And on portions of the frames, a milky looking haze developed that will not come off with any conventional gun cleaner I've tried.

The guns were continuously in the bores stores for about 6-8 months until I went though everything in my safe to do my usual pre-winter inspection and "winterizing" regimen.

Needless to say, I've long since discontinued using the bores stores.

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Conrad
SWCA #1830 SWHF #222

I have been smithing for some time, and I have experienced some contradictions to the comments in this thread about plum coloration. Just yesterday, my wife and I blued a batch of rifle parts. This morning when I wiped them down, I saw what I have seen before randomly over the years. The bluing on the vast majority of parts/barrels/actions/bolts, etc., turned out quite nice...deep dark black. However, three parts plummed.
- All parts were in the same bluing process (in the tank at the same time for the same length of time).
- Temp and salt mix was consistent throughout.
- I do not use WD-40.
I will not claim to know the answer to the plum dilemma, otherwise I would have taken action to remedy it if possible. BUT, I will say that I have witnessed particular parts on particular firearms plum more than others. For example, Mauser extractors, front sight ramps on many older (military and civilian) rifles, H&R Topper receivers to name a few. While I understand if the bluing recipe is skewed or temp is off, the desired effect will likely not happen, but my experience has shown that consistency in bluing also produces the undesired plum effect. I put little solidarity in the WD-40 theory (if you believe it may have some effect, it certainly is not the only culprit). My belief now, as it has been, is a difference in the steel. Parts to a single gun do not come from a single piece of steel. Is Silica the culprit....is Nickel....is it something else? Smarter folks will be able to determine that. My degree is not in metallurgy, my intelligence in that subject is decent, but not exceptional. A second rebluing has, on occasion, has provided slightly better results with an adjustment to temp, but not always.
Cheers & Happy New Year!

I have a custom rifle on a 98 Mauser. The barrel Douglas and was their latest new steel in the day, middle 60s. The gunsmith who made it up was known for his bluing. When he blued this rifle the action was perfect and still is. The barrel came out pleasingly PLUM. He wanted to reblue but we just left it that way, it has character.
I have old Ruger Single-6 that has a wisp or two of purple on the frame. I have never herd WD causes purple. I think whoever started that one is full of brown.

I have some HAM Radio amplifiers where the Heat Sinks are Blued and have had the same thing happen. When checking with the manufacturer, they said it was not an uncommon occurrence. They told me that it was due to impurities in the steel. Of course for this application I don't case, though it would upset me if it happened to any of my Blued Smith firearms.

Bob

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Sag Harbor & Manhattan, N.Y.

Had an early flattop Ruger 357 with the bright Purple Blue Loading Gate.
MMC Rear Sight.
On my list of what was I thinking?

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

The NIB M57 I bought '67 ('S' prefix) had it's cylinder turn plum.
Rugers are noted for the color.
Rebluing those older cast steel framed SxS and single shot break open guns will often leave the frame purple.
Lots of Mausers, Springfields and Lee Enfields reblue OK but then can sometimes change over to plum with some time.
There's a mix of case hardened recv's there .
I did a restoration on a Ross 1910 Sporter that had been 'refinished'.
The receiver was a deep plum color from the hot salt reblue. The bbl was a deep blue color when I recv'd it.
Both had been heavily buffed and the bbl had not been taken off of the recv'r for the bluing process. So both parts recv'd the same polishing compound, prep, oil, cleaner, and tank bluing time.

No strict rules,,no simple answer it seems.
Some blame the investment casting process, but forged and machined parts seem to be effected as well.
Poor bluing salts, temp, time in tank, etc.

There are probably thousands of different steel types then add the different heat treatments they can be given.
It's a wonder anything matches coming out of the hot salt blue tank.

Winchester always had a problem matching color when using the Carbona Blue process as well.(Discontinued use in '38/'39 and switched over to DuLite hot salt bluing)
Especially on the Mod42 where the side plate was soft and the frame HT'd... and on the Mod21 where the frame is Ht'd very tough but the trigger plate which was made of the same alloy recv'd no HT'mt at all.

FWIW,,most parts that refuse to blue w/hot salt blue or turn unacceptable colors like this will generally blue just fine if done by Rust Bluing.
Slow Rust works the best on parts that give problems.

Thanks for giving the old thread new life!

How about a 40 year old Leupold Vari X II in plum.

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

I can't tell you why, but I also have a 28-2 with a plum barrel. I've listened to a local S&W "expert" tell me several times that my barrel has been reblued while rolling his eyes, but I just continue to ignore him.

It seems to occur more often when some parts are heat-treated or processed differently than others, but I do not know enough about S&W to say this is the case here. The explanation of different parts being blued in batches seems just as valid.

Here is something else to add to the mix. Some cylinders are harder than others. I have made about 8 22 cylinders into 32 cylinders. I have ran into 3 that were considerably harder than the rest. The one in my shop right now if the hardest of the lot.

The heat treatment a steel has gone through will effect how it blues and retains its color. I have put parts in the same tank at the same time and they do not all respond the same, some take longer, some I actually take out and dip in water to cool off, then wipe with fine steel wool and put them back in solution trying get them to match.

Interesting old thread. I happen to like a nice "plum" on firearms; knowing it's not a harmful defect, I'm OK with it. This Detonics Combat Master I purchased a few years ago has a nice "plum" on the slide; common on the early Detonics.

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John

Ask this question on an M1Garand forum and you will get further speculation. Lots of guys prefer the plum to black or grey park. Garands hare hard steel, some with lead dipped heals and most all were immersed in cosmoline. The thought is the cosmo does something to the park to make it plum. My 2 cents. And Luke I am your father!

Hey a good zombie thread...

Some of the Ruger guys find the plum guns collectable. Here is my Super Bearcat with a frame and hammer that turned plum (actually more of a brown):

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Social pressure

My first 28-2 that I bought in 1978 had a slightly plum cylinder. The other one the pawnshop had was plum too. Neither were refinished. Mine was the slightly cheaper of the two, due to more holster wear. I couldn't really care less about it..