Is .38sp ammo too small?

I thought that the 38 spl was inadequate for the longest time. That's why I purchased a 357 mag J frame. What I found was that 357's out of a scandium chiefs special are brutal for recoil. This made me research the 38. I looked into the Speer 135 grain short bbl +P load. It expands nicely and penetrates a minimum of 11 inches through all of the FBI protocol barriers except wallboard. It only penetrates 10 inches in drywall. I can't ever see myself shooting blindly through walls, so I don't care about this 10 inch data. I also found that this round from Speer is fun to shoot from my 442, and not brutal like 357's through my M&P360. I am sold on the 38 with the right load. 38 spl is also the most popular caliber according to wikipedia. You should read the wikipedia article on the 38 spl. Very interesting. My 442 and the 38+P are now my favorite revolver/ammo combo, and my everyday CCW.

The best[IMHO]for everyday carry.I use these in a 37-2[Airweight].



The Gun Zone -- The Speer 135-grain JHP +P 38 Special

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WALSTIB

Today's projectiles are orders of magnitude better than what was available when most opinions of the .38 Special were formed. Velocity could still be improved, and with it, energy, but that is true across the board.

I've seen men shot with poor .38 special loads outrun the officer who shot them and seen others shot with a good load drop like a rock. Research your load, shoot what looks good, pick one and practice with it.

Like Erich says shot placement is king, God save the queen and angels win pin shoots (or something like that - but I agree with the shot placement part).

Then carry it and you will be better protected than 95% (or more) of the population.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

I've been loading my SD revolvers lately with some of Winchester's new Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1 - 130gr 38spl+P. The bonded PDX1 JHP is supposedly the new FBI bullet of choice, and I've never felt that my .357's were underpowered for SD with .38spl+P, and it allows me better control then full load .357s so my shot placement is better.

What barrel length is on your M64?

ive been shooting mine with hornady's 110 gr. jhp critical defense +p ammo. they shoot pretty good through the 10-5.

We're in the day and age when mall cowboys consider you undergunned if you don't have 17+ in the magazine, or at least something that ends in "magnum". Too many video games and action flicks, too little common sense. An assailant shot in the head with a .22 rimfire will fall down and stay down. A criminal shot in the love handles with a 44mag might just get real, real mad at you. A cool head, steady aim and one round will stop almost any fight, regardless of what caliber you're using.

Actually, I once knew a man who hit a thug in the chest four times with a .44 Magnum, and the man ran for blocks, no vital organ being hit. That officer switched to a Model 19 with full .357 loads, and resovled to aim better.

I often use a .357 with good HP loads for home defense. I think it or a 9mm with good placement will usually suffice.

T-Star

Ask those posters if they want to meet and stand in front of your .38 when you fire it. You could even spot them 30 or 40 feet from the muzzle to be fair.

Welcome to the Forum.

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NRA Life Member

There's your problem right there.....

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Early in my career as a Forensic Pathologist "digging out" projectiles from fatalities, some 40 years ago, it was .22 and .25 and a few .38sp. 40 years later it is .38 sp. and 9mm (the drug crowd's favorite). Very few people get killed with bigger and more powerful projectiles, but when they do it is usually a "knock down". As previously stated, shot placement is the key!

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Doc Garrett
Dead Man's Doctor

PRACTICE with your S&W and become proficient. The .38 special cartridge will then be a very good self defense round.

I am using Erich's line: Bullet placement is king, penetration is queen, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin.
Says it all. Works for any caliber, anywhere, anytime.

Originally Posted by tiptoe2lups

In other forums the general consensus is

lol, nice. True, but still funny.

I never met a .38 Special I didn't like!!!

[QUOTE=Texas Star;1256178]Actually, I once knew a man who hit a thug in the chest four times with a .44 Magnum, and the man ran for blocks, no vital organ being hit. That officer switched to a Model 19 with full .357 loads, and resovled to aim better.

I often use a .357 with good HP loads for home defense. I think it or a 9mm with good placement will usually suffice.

you have got to be kidding me????? no human being would remain standing after 4 .44 mag shots....... period!!!! a standard 357 load is a weaker load than a standard 44 mag load...i know...i own both.i have no doubt what so ever that 1 shot to the torso with a 44 mag will drop any average human being...lets be real about what were talking about here.

I carry Hydra-Shok +P in my 642. I don't feel undergunned at all. In fact, this is a switch UP from my Bersa .380. Numbers-wise it's about 25% more energy, but as has been mentioned several times already - shot placement is everything. You can miss as hard and fast as you want; I'll take a slow accurate hit any day.

If you want more power, step on up to a 9mm or larger. Same diameter as a .38 (.355 to the .38's .358) and a hair more muzzle velocity.

I guess what it really comes down to is ... practice. Know your gun and yourself and practice practice practice.

Several years ago a local deputy was shot three times in the upper torso with a 44mag. He was out of the fight, but lived to tell the tale. Handgun ammo doesn't have the velocity for the shock wave to be a factor, so damage is limited to the entry wound, exit wound (if there is one) and the channel in between. Two holes is the most damage you can do, regardless of muzzle energy. I CCW my handloads, and they aren't max. I load to a level that I think will provide two holes, and no further.

When you say that you have no doubt, I believe you. However, that does not make what you don't doubt true. How many human beings have you seen shot with four times, or even once, with a .44 mag? How many with other cartridges? Have you read any factual reports of shootings? Have you discussed wounds with any emergency-room doctors, or others who have actually observed a fair number of shootings, or at least their eventual effects? Have you ever been shot? Have you used other ways of learning the varying effects of having a small channel almost instantaneously punched in one or another part of your thorax?

Both a .357 and a .44 can be used with projectiles which will completely penetrate a human body, some doing so slightly expanded. I think that the point of Texas Star's friend's switch was to shoot better with a gun which would still accomplish the mission if used properly.

Funny you should mention love handles and the .44 Magnum... I recently saw a serveillence video of a guy putting his would-be armed robber into a bear hug and trying to wrestle him to the floor. The armed robber then shot him right through both love handles with a long barreled .44 Magnum, with the bullets going down into the floor. This did in fact make the shootee very angry! The shooter then held the gun up a little higher and delivered the killing shot. The bullet used was some cheapo jacketed something or other and the core separated from the jacket shortly after impact. While it killed the human instantly, I have no doubt that it would fail against something very large or tough skinned. You need to put the bullet where it needs to go and it needs to get there in one piece. Much of our modern JHP ammo leaves much to be desired, either because the bullets don't hold together or there just isn't enough velocity.

With the .38 Special you can't go wrong with a hard 158 gr. SWC at 1000 FPS or more, if the gun can handle it. And any modern 2" J Frame can exceed these ballistics when properly loaded.

Dave Sinko

I used to read books by the author Lee Child until one of his books had his "hero" decide he would take a full chest shot from a "puny" .38 Special and continue the fight. Of course, the hero took the slug in the chest and won the fight and lived to fight another day because the .38 Special is so underpowered it barely penetrated the first layer of hardened muscles on the hero's manly chest. (Barf!)

I now refuse to read anything else by this moron.

The .38 Special actually is pretty underpowered when using the standard velocity 158 gr. RNL bullets of the past. But even with this relatively underpowered round, the .38 has performed pretty well over the years. Today, ammunition is better designed with high performance projectiles and special propellents and the guns are stronger. You can take you pick of powerful rounds chambered for .38 Special by many ammo makers. Even "bargain" brand guns by companies like Charter Arms, Rossi and Taurus are built well enough to handle the ammo. Bottom line: the .38 Special has always been pretty good and it is a better choice today than ever before.

I may get flamed here But I will continue.
I train at 15 yards with paper plates. Simple and easy.
I will hang 10 or more of them and try different ammo in the gun I intend to carry.
I currently carry an old Model 49.
Well with lots of ammo and a few hours shooting I can tell you this one thing.
If I absolutely want to get 5 rounds on the plate as fast as possible I can do it fastest with 38 Special Wad cutters. And I mean FAST.
So what do I want out of a defensive handgun?
For me it is to stop getting beaten, Stop my woman from being attacked, Stop my dog from being mauled from another dog.
So basically I am NOT HUNTING, And I dont have the time to aim and shoot carefully, I will need to react fast and accurately.
Well call me a wuss, But I know that I can get 5 shots on target just about as fast as I can pull the little J frames trigger.
So I carry 38 WCs.
They may be considered underpowered, But I doubt an offender would be thinking that when hit 5 times in about 2 seconds or less.....
I am a peaceful man who never would want to hurt anybody~~~~
I carry a 44 mag when camping or hiking in Bear country.
But otherwise I am happy with the 38.
~~NOTE~~~
Last year in NJ a guy shot his wife in the back with a pellet rifle for some @*&@$ reason.
Well it hit the cartelidge in her spine and she went down and died......
Peter

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Need 1/2 moon Chiefs special

Just like Pred said but I like a dewc by BB it gets the penitration and its not to hard to shoot and most important its accurate.

i have no doubt what so ever that if i shot any human being on this planet with a .44 mag round...in the chest...that part of their spine would exit with the round..a simple 38 special round...to the chest will drop 99% of people shot. if you or anyone else doesnt think so please step up and show me other wise. ive seen first hand what a 357 mag will do to the human body(as a child) my friend was shot. i think people are being unrealistic about what a 38/357/44 round will actually do. i do not disagree at all on a well placed shot...my whole grip is...these rounds are alot stronger than most people truly know.

No flaming here, I think you hit the nail on the head. You found a round that you and your 49 like, and then you practiced to the point that you have complete confidence that the two of you can get the job done, quickly and cleanly. 5 well placed shots will stop anybody (meth-head possibly excluded, the things they have been known to do shouldn't be physically possible).

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Fast is fine;accurate is final

Agreed. They're wrong, we're right! And Welcome to tiptoe2lups! You'll find that the folks here are alot more open minded and provide the most practical advice you'll find anywhere.

I can't believe some of the views I've found in other forums. One won't even ALLOW the discussion of any caliber smaller than 9mm. I excused myself from that forum just before I arrived here. You can't ignore results. Just because something might not be the "best" choice doesn't mean you should exclude it completely. 38spl has proven itself to be a reliable defensive round despite what some groups would lead you to believe.

And to answer tiptoe2lups' last question, Corbon makes great defensive ammo.

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Fast is fine;accurate is final

We can always count on the sharp wit of sipowicz...

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Centennial Every Day

So, basically you are calling Texas Star a liar.

Just a little bit of research will find you plenty of instances where people who have survived and kept fighting after being hit with rounds that carry both more muzzle energy and momentum than any .44 Magnum. It is what it is, there are no sure things in life.

Nope, its the same size its always been.

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Hello Cleveland, Rock and Roll

Bottom line is... Don't count on any gun to get the job done. If all your rounds don't take effect, be willing to go over and rip out their eyeballs with your bare hands if you have to.

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Centennial Every Day

The size of a bullet is only one factor. 38 spl nowadays provides a pretty good mix of bullet size and velocity to offer decent penetration. Old problems with the 38 spl had a lot to do with bullet design before modern improvements. Some large bullets are too large to kick up much velocity to penetrate well too. I've seen head imaging with large bullets (45 in this case) that barely penetrated the skull and only embedded maybe an inch or two below the skull. What makes a rifle so effective? Velocity. I wouldn't doubt 38+p in a 130 gr bullet or so with hollow point at reasonable distances.

. . . if you hit the spine - that's what the other posters are talking about. You could easily shoot someone in the chest 4 times (with a .44 mag) and NOT hit the spine.

I know of two people shot with .44 mags that lived to tell about it. One was in Georgia: a gun store owner's girlfriend got in a disagreement with him about telling his wife or something and she shot him with a .44 (not sure exactly where). He returned fire as well - needless to say, he ended up divorced, with no girlfriend after he got out of the hospital (lost his business also). The other was in Nevada: a would-be Quick-Draw McGraw was practicing with his new Ruger Vaquero in .44 Mag - loaded. I saw pictures of his leg; laid open from stem to stern (it was ugly).

This thread reminds me of something Roy Huntington said in a story some years back about an Outdoorsman he had converted to .45 Colt by Hamilton Bowen with Roy fishpaw grips. When ribbed about his old fashioned revolver by his 'glockenschpiel' cop buddies he replied that they could stand off and he would shoot at them until they got tired of it. Nobody wants to get shot with anything, not even a .25 (at least I don't), but to put somebody down you've got to hit 'em where it counts.

The problem is that people want to fixate on a single factor in a complex question.

What is the nature of the target? Average guy? Stoned on something unpronouncable? Enraged and bent on destruction?

Where is the hit? Through a muscle? Spine, lung, heart? Hit bone or not?

What is the target wearing? Leather jacket over a sweater and shirt or a wifebeater and a gang tattoo?

What bullet? LRN, generic HP, high tech HP? Lead, all copper, JHP?

I am kind of a history buff and have dozens of books written by WWII vets and Vietnam Vets about their experiences. I am struck by the tales of soldiers, sailors and airmen who were wounded by aircraft cannon, crewserved weapons and fragments from gravity bombs and continued to function.

There was a Japanese pilot who was wounded in the face by a .30-06, his eye was put out and he flew back to base and landed his plane with part of a .30-06 bullet in his eyeball. On a more extreme example there was a B17 crewman who carried a burning incendary bomb out of the bombbay and threw it out of the plane while it burned both of his hands off. Many Vietnam chopper pilots were wounded by 12.7mm HMH fire and continued to fly long enough to complete the mission or at least land, depending on where they were hit.

People are unpredictable, there are no simple answers and all you can do is play the odds. I carried a 4" S&W with LRN ammo for 4 years, I would carry one again, but you can bet it would be with the best hollowpoints I could find. (I carry a .45 ACP 1911 now, just for the record.)

A 38 will do it. I once went to a Bank Robbery where the bad guy (the dude) was 260 pounds and a good 6 feet tall. He was wearing a T-Shirt & Blue Jeans. Came into the Bank & fired a shot straight at the bank teller. He apparently didn't know the glass in front of her was bullet proof. 45 caliber slug glanced up into the ceiling. The Bank's Security Guard was an older retired police officer about 70 years of age. The Guard was armed with plain 38+P ammo. No hollow point. From a distance of 15 feet he cranked off 4 shots for a "perfect K5 kill area". The group was about 3 inches across. The "dude" was dead by the time he hit the floor. What a great retired police officer. A 38 will do the job.

If the BG runs away, is that not good enough results from any SD scenario ?

I'd rather have him be hit by a .44 magnum and run away, than hit by a .38 and keep coming.

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Hook686

My favorite post in this thread.

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Don't need no stinkin' sigline

hey medxam what caliber do you carry for self defense?

110 grain Hydra-Shoks.