I recall Richard Marcinko's claim in Rogue Warrior that they at one time used the Model 66 for waterborne operations. The reason was that stainless steel would be more corrosion resistant than any semiauto of the time. Some people have told me that none of this is true and no SEAL Team has ever been issued revolvers. In my experience saltwater does horrible things to stainless steel very quickly. So did they really use the Model 66? And what kind of maintenance would be required to keep them functioning in such an environment?

Dave Sinko

Dave;

There is a book titled "Weapons of the Navy SEALs" by Kevin Dockery, who has written several books on SEAL-related material and seems credible. In it, he states the SEALs used both model 66s and 686s, the latter for wax bullet/primer powered "live-fire" practice. The book is a few years old so no mention as to whether this type of practice continues.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Whether or not Seal Team 6 used a particular weapon is unknown to me; however, these models were in the inventory and available for use by different units. These may not have been T/O issue weapons but to quote Mr Mom, ."... .38 or .39, whatever gets the job done.". And special forces units have a lot more latitude in weapons and tactics than does the typical straight leg unit. Different weapons and equipment were not available to a given unit during peacetime but were available for combat or contingency operations under the unit's Table of Equipment, so that they had M 66 revolvers is entirely probable.

I know first hand that they used 686s with "simunition" paint marking rounds in the early 90s. Whether they used them for other purposes I don't know.

I should add that my unit served as the "bad guys," and we were the ones with the revolvers. The good guys used MP5s.

I'm most intrigued by the thought of taking ANY stainless steel revolver, dunking it in the ocean and then expecting it to function properly without any kind of immediate attention to maintenance. I know an elite unit can get anything it wants, but would a stainless steel revolver really be the best choice for this kind of application? I'm probably the most ardent fan of revolver carry, but I can't see it as a viable choice in this kind of environment. They are very difficult to detail strip and clean, unless there was a special cleaning and/or maintenance regimen that was used.

Dave Sinko

I did some firearms training with Seal Team 5 in the 80's and never saw or heard of any revolvers being used - but they seemed to have access to anything they wanted and had a love for HK stuff.

Yes SEAL Team 6 did use S&W Mod 66's.

I think that's an excellent point, one I agree with. Taking sideplates off in the field, risking things like hammer blocks getting lost, effectively cleaning out the corrosive water and reassembly, not a good idea. Many if not most modern semi autos are vastly easier to clean/preserve after a water dunking. Don

Probably why they have the SIG P226 with the rust-resistant internals now...

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I and my son were at an air show about 6 years ago at a local airbase, of course. The SEAL's had and exhibit and on their weapons table was a 686. I'm just sayin'.

Is it not possible that the interior and innards were coated with one of the self lubricating finishes that are resistant to everything, including saltwater?

Small arms cleaning and preservation in SEAL units after salt water immersion is the same now as it was a generation ago: field strip, clean with Breakfree CLP, rinse in hot water, spray with more CLP, wipe down, and allow to air dry.

This routine works even with the relatively complicated action parts of a DA revolver. No sideplate removal or detail stripping is needed.

Blued finishes do not hold up well, but parkerized, anodized, and stainless finishes do very well.

The M66 was used until the M686 came along, not only by SEAL 6, but by the mid- late-1980's the other Teams as well. The reasoning was that if lubricants washed off the weapon during the swim to the objective, a revolver was more likely to function than a semi-auto. Maintenance was as described above by john traveler. There was no special ammunition used, as the Winchester Silver Tips of the time were considered reasonably waterproof.

The M686 was also useful in CQB training with wax bullets. Typically simunitions cartridges were modified by the operators, who cut the plastic projectile tip off the simunitions round and then inserted a wax bullet. The blue case heads of the modified simunitions cartridges helped to assure the operator that he was using something other than ball ammo to engage other humans in a training environment.

One didn't go visiting to SEAL 2 on days when they were running wild through the hallways with the 686's and wax ammo. Even if you weren't in the training scenario, you were fair game if you showed up on other business.

In his book "Rogue Warrior" Richard Marchinko has a good discussion on his purchase of the S&W Model 66 revolver.
He wanted the .357 both for it's stopping power and for it's rust resistance when "we took them swimming".
Included in the book are several pictures of the team practicing and training with the guns.
One picture is of Ensign Trailer Court (his real name) clearly holding a Model 66 fitted with Hogue rubber grips during an oil rig take-down exercise.
He has a revolver pocket on the front side of his vest.

Marchinko went into detail about how the first SEAL team wanted .357 revolvers, but a Navy bean counter decided to save some money by issuing the standard Navy S&W Model 15 .38 Special.
Marchinko says the buyer went to a Navy range and asked to fire a .38 and a .357. The staff gave him one of each, but only gave him standard .38 Special ammo.
When he fired the guns he could detect no difference and stuck the early teams with the Model 15.

Marchinko determined that wouldn't happen with SEAL 6 so he used special team funding to buy them himself.
SEAL 6 was originally 78 men, all "shooters", no support or admin staff.
Those 78 men shot up more ammo in practice their first year than the entire Marine Corps did that year.

The Teams also used the S&W Model 686 and the S&W Model 66 with the 2 1/2" barrel.
The S&W Model 60 was a favorite for concealed carry by SEALs when traveling or "in town".

The German GSG-9 group used the S&W Model 60 revolver, but on the recommendation of SEAL 6 they changed to the S&W Model 66 with a 2 1/2" barrel.
On one of their famous take-downs a GSG-9 unit used the S&W Model 66 snubbies to kill several terrorists in the cockpit of a high jacked airliner in Germany.
On the film you can see several bright flashes of the stun grenades, then several smaller flashes.
The smaller flashes are the muzzle blast of the full-charge .357 ammo out of the 2 1/2" barrels of the Model 66 revolvers, which were shooting ammo used before low-flash ammo became available.

Awesome info, you just never know!

I have a 2.5" Model 66, never would have though the exact same type of revolver was used by SEALs and German anti-terror teams!

I know this is the S&W forum but did the SEALs ever hear of the Ruger Security Six or GP100? A LOT easier to break down and clean after it's been "swimming"

The thought of taking a S&W for a dunk gives me chills......especially salt water in the internals. That sideplate really isn't made to be popped off and on all the time.

Did they use both model revolvers in 2.5" barrels, or just the 66?

During my brief tenure in Specwar I was aware of only the 4" 686 being used in the S&W line, but the guys in Six had several sidearms issued besides the 686, depending upon the mission.

A colleague used a 686 during one training evolution in Norway. A Norwegian officer was so taken with it that he asked my buddy to obtain one for him back in the States and have it shipped to him in Norway. When we found out how much paperwork was involved we were afraid he wouldn't be able to get anything else done until the gun was bought and sent. Worked out OK in the end, and he kept an ally happy.

This is all very interesting. I can not find my old copy of Rogue Warrior but I do recall the story of the bean counters and the Model 15. I remember the photos too.

I continue to be a big fan of Breakfree CLP, even though nowadays everybody is peddling stuff that is purported to be much more sophisticated. Still, those revolvers had to be barely serviceable after all those trips into and out of the sea. At the very least I'd expect frozen sideplate screws that could never be removed. But if the revolver can be loaded and fired, I guess some minor considerations like sideplate screws can be overlooked. And if one stops functioning, just throw it away, grab another one and get back to work.

I would never subject any of my own revolvers to such abuse, but it's good to know that somebody has done it and it really can be done during extreme circumstances. Many of us here are very attached to our revolvers which we have purchased with our hard earned dollars. I always believed that rough military use was out of bounds for the common service revolver, but apparently I have been wrong.

Dave Sinko

The French GIGN also used short barreled revolvers. They prefered them for hostage rescue where you might be shooting in a grappling situation, that might cause the slide to hit a person, clothing, get entangled in hair etc.

Revolvers work fine in wet environments. They will even shoot underwater.

Even a 1911 in 45 ACP will function when fired under water.

BreakFree is one of my favorite, probably my most used "gun liquid".

However for serious "water use" take a hard look at Ballistol.

I'm not sure about the model 66, but I can state quite emphatically that the 686 was definitely in the inventory for the Coronado Frogmen....

In the '80s I remember seeing a magazine picture (in Time, Life, or some such) of a US millitary "trainer" in Central America reading while off duty. There was a stainless 4" L frame with Pachmayr's in the shot.

/c

Good point: I have, in fact, had a Browning Hi-Power slide get snarled in the cuff of a parka sleeve. BAD jam! I had to take off the coat on a cold, windy day, and work HARD to get the gun free of the sleeve.

GIGN usually used four-inch barrelled MR-73 revolvers, but they've had all sorts of options, to suit a given mission. Austrian equivalents also had the four-inch MR-73, and some were sold as surplus some time ago.

T-Star

The SEAL weapons display at the annual NAS Oceana airshow regularly included a 686. I recall one year they had a 686 submerged in a fish tank and would take it out every few hours and shoot off the six blanks it was loaded with.

Some years back there was a retired naval officer who shot at my range. He had a 4" 66 that he said was identical to one he used in the service. IIRC he was in a special warfare division stationed in Little Creek VA.

He used to tape an index card to the chest of a B27 and roll it out to 7 yards. Then he would draw and fire two shots into the index card. Those shots were always millimeters apart. Very impressive shooting. Regards 18DAI.

Usually, water won't infiltrate into snugged down screws, so they won't rust if the gun is properly treated once out of salt water.

The last I heard about the "swimming" S&W revolvers, the technique was to drop the guns in a tank of fresh water, hot if possible to flush out the salt water.
After removing the guns, the water was blown out and they were lubricated with....wait for it.....WD-40.

I know, WD-40 is NOT a lubricant and it instantly causes a gun to rust and gum up.
The SEALs apparently hadn't read the message.

One of the most interesting things I ever read about WD-40 is in the book "Good To Go" by famed multiple tour Vietnam SEAL Harry Constance.
Constance wrote that when he came in from a patrol, he'd remove the plastic parts from his Stoner light machine gun and drop the assembled gun AND the linked ammo into a cut-off barrel of gasoline.
After breakfast, he'd remove the gun and ammo, disassemble and clean the gun, then liberally spray the gun AND linked ammo with WD-40 to lubricate and prevent rust.
He said he was then ready to go out again, and that in 3 tours of duty, he never had a jam from the Stoner.

True, he did this every day so the WD didn't have time to gum up, but this also puts paid to the story about WD-40 "killing" primers.
Apparently SEAL 6 and the other teams thought WD-40 was good for revolvers too.

The SEALs are super anal retentive about weapons maintenance, which is why SEALs seem to not have as many problems with weapons as other people do.
Since they spend so much time on maintenance, they find methods that work for them no matter the common knowledge that says that's not good.

If you can believe the various books and literature, then yes they did. I am sure many will answer your question first hand because, like everyone who served in WWII served under General Patton, everyone who has ever been in the US Navy has been on "the teams!"

Seriously, I have seen films of the French GIGN using blued Manurhin Model MR73 revolvers in .357 Magnum and coming up out of the water during training, revolver in hand, ready to take out a sentry.

I am quite certain that stainless would hold up better than blue, and, with either, rust is not going to happen instantly.

Making sure there is no rust is a matter of blowing out the internals and using a water displacing/lubing treatment, and drying it off. Although I am not inclined to take a really nice Model 27 or Python in the ocean, it CAN be done without ill effects, with careful treatment, and without having to remove the sideplate in the field. Again, not the first choice, but at the time, more corrosion resistant than say, a 1911.

Previous usage aside for a moment. If one were to get a newer revolver into salt water (say a S&W 627-stainless) what would your immediate course of action be? What ammo is recommended for "water work"? Just curious. I know a lot of guys who used WD-40 when I was in the Army. Never seemed to hurt anything.

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Dyin ain't much of a livin

Seal team used the S&W 686 Sig P-228 and P-226 along with the Colt 1911 Berreta's also were tested had trouble with frames cracking after thousands of rds.

Wether you get a gun totally wet in a rain or you have had it under water the clean up is the same.

Here are a couple of ways to do it quick, without taking the gun apart.

Which way depends upon "what stuff" you have with you.

1. You can rinse/flush out the gun in warm to hot water. The hotter the water the better. as if the gun is hot a lot of the water will evaorate.
Then just relube.

2. You can hose the gun down WD40, which displaces the water, shake as much WD 40 our as possible and dry out the chambers and barrel.
You can use a few squirts of Gunscrubber to quickly dry out the barrel and chamber[s]. Or you can blast all the WD 40 out of the gun and relube with "good lube".


3. Use just about any gune lube in an aresol can and spray out the gun, then dry chambers and barrel.


4. Spray the gun down with Ballistol, and then dry out the chamber{s} and barrel.

5. Or if you have lubed your gun with E&L Gun Lube, a sray on Dry Graphite, you can just shake all the water out you can [ if you have been in Salt Water then flush out with fresh water if avialable, and go on about the Mission.

E&L gun lube does not wash off.

Of course later, when time and place allows your strip down the gun and do proper maintance.

I have spent a lot of time around water and guns and I have used all of the above techniques over the years. None of my guns have suffered any rust damage.

If you are operating a gun in a highly dusty environment the R&L Gun Lube is good stuff.

Also for flushong the dust our of a gun the Hornady One Shot Gun Cleaner and Dry Lube is good stuff.

It cleans like Gunscrubber, but leaves a dry lube behind.

I like the Aresol products when I need to do something quick fast and easy.

A good reason to use a revolver for practice would be the wax bullets would probably not cycle the action of a semiauto during practice, I'm sure the military could afford all the revolvers they needed.

I have folding knives with stainless steel blades that have taken a dip in the ocean and the blades rusted immediately. The rust appears to be mostly cosmetic and it's still there today, so I would expect that most if not all of these sea water revolvers will be looking a nice shade of brown. One of the lasting effects of the sea water bath has to be a permanent brown stain. If it's only cosmetic, I guess that's OK.

Does anybody know how long a stainless steel revolver can last after being dunked in the sea before it DOES start to seize up?

Dave Sinko

Yes, they did . FOR SURE

Don't most military handguns have to pass a salt water test? Or perhaps the SEALs have a secret way of transporting them to the OP site???

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Dyin ain't much of a livin

Never been a SEAL but have trained with them around the world and been to 3 of their courses. When training with SEAL Team 2 in Machrinhanish Scotland in the late 80s they had a few 4" Model 66s in the arms room. I didn't see them taken out on the ranges with us or during our dives but they were there if needed. As far as mantainence goes it's already been covered. The WD in WD-40 stands for Water Displacement.

Two SEALs, two Royal Navy Jordian Diver at 30' with LAR V rebreathers (I'm also on a LAR V taking the picture)


Couple 5th SFGA Combat Divers with LAR Vs


CD

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De Oppresso Liber