686 Pressure Rating?

[Electric Head]

Hi Everyone!

I'm doing up a starting load and according to Quickload it exceeds SAAMI pressure but is ok for CIP standard.

My question is: What pressure is the 686 rated for?

Cheers for any and all input!

[OKFC05]

The 686, according to S&W, is rated for SAAMI spec .357 Magnum ammunition (35,000 PSI).
If you're loading .38 Special, that's obviously less than .357 and safe in the 686.

If you're doing a .357 "starting load" that's listed as over SAAMI max pressure, then you and I have very different ideas on what a "starting load" should be. Typically, starting loads are given in most reloading manuals as 10 to 15% below max.

[Bruce51]

From your post it sounds like you are new to reloading.

How about some more information. What bullet, primer, powder and case will you be using? What powder charge? What is your goal with
these loads?
Target, self defense, hunting?
Give the board more information and you will get a lot of good advice.
Maybe you should start a thread in the reloading section.
Bruce

[Electric Head]

Thanks for the replies!

I didn't post in reloading as I have already done so on another forum, I thought I'd see if I can find what the 686 is rated to handle. If need be please move this to the reloading section moderators.

I am new to reloading, the data used is coming from my reloading book verified against the powder manufacturer's own data, available online.

150 grain hard lead SWC hard lube coated rated to 1700fps.

ADI AR 2205 powder 15.0 to 16.5 grains start to max. Pressures for start and max are 33100CUP and 36700CUP, basically impossible to relate to PSI, but may help I guess.

Winchester nickel once-fired .357 Magnum brass

Case length 32.55mm

Projectile length 18.17mm

COL 40.11mm

Checked the case capacity to 26.75 grains H2O.

Now when I set it up I ended up at 15.4 grains powder and made some test cartridges up. I thought I'd check out what Quickload had to say about it (AFTERWARDS) and while less than halfway to max load listed in the ADI online data, Quickload says it exceeds SAAMI pressure (35274 psi) so any further would obviously exceed it more.

Now I've heard the L frame was brought out when SAAMI spec was 42000 psi so they are rated for that, but I would like to verify. I am in Australia so I thought maybe since S&W are exporting these they then they would comply with CIP specs?

Oh and I want to use them for 200m metallic silhouette, so fast and hard hitting are the main goals.

[Bruce51]

The powder you are using is similar to IMR 4227 which rates 76 on the burn rate chart in the USA. H110 which I use is #71 and the most popular powder 2400 is listed at # 67.
Loads listed for 158 grain jacketed bullets list 15 to 17 grains of 4227.
So your loads with a 150 grain lead bullet seem to be reasonable if the burn rates are the same.
For 200m silhouette loads my understanding is a heavier bullet is preferred. The 180 grain TMJ lists loads of 12.3 and 13.7 of 4227.
Of course this is all extrapolation from known data and your results may be different in your gun.
The 686 is one stout handgun and I have fired some heavy reloads without incident. H110 loaded with a 158 grain JHP at 17 grains equals Remington factory velocities. I now shoot only 16 grains because it's all I need in a four inch barrel.
As always start low and work up your load.

Bruce

[Electric Head]

Thanks again for the info Bruce Lee M! Everyone says that bullet weight is the go for metallic silhouette and I agree BUT... These 150GN bullets I have are the heaviest I can find and still be cheap. If I want more mass I need to buy jacketed stuff for $30 per 100 rather than $50 per 500 for the 150s so I'm hoping to get them work. Hopefully I can get a fairly flat(ish) trajectory and make up for some mass with a little speed.

ADI says that AR 2205 is sold under the Hodgdon brand in the US as H4227, and from reading it looks like Hodgdon's IMR brand powders are made in Canada by Expro Tech. I'd say they are the same recipes but due to tolerances of organic chemistry in a production environment they differ enough that they are "like" each other, not exactly the same thing.

Well your post gives me great confidence Bruce, but I might still pull them and wind it down to 15 grains or maybe a little less.

I know this has turned into a reloading thread, sorry about that the powers that be.

Since the cases were PACKED with 15.4 grains, would it be reasonably safe to take it down to 14 grains (90% of 15.4)? My thinking on detonation is caused by the primer flashing over a large area of powder in a relatively spacious case, is that correct? If so surely 90% of PACKED shouldn't experience that problem.

[OKFC05]

make up for some mass with a little speed.

If slihouettes are your game, you have the wrong load. The silhouettes go down by momentum transfer (M x V), which is why a 125gr .357 wil ring them and a 240gr .44 will slap them down. It is ballistically easier to add 50% to mass than 50% to speed, and easier on the gun.

Some silhouette shooters shoot what are nearly proof loads (10% over)in their guns, which materially shortens their life. I believe the 42,000 PSI you cited is the "definitive proof load" which is 20% over the rated working pressure. This is the max load the gun design is required to sustain (once) without flying into pieces, and is not a safe working load by any standard.

heaviest I can find and still be cheap.

You might factor in the early replacement of the gun as part of the overall cost and see if light and hot loading is really cheaper.

By the way, you are right that PSI and CUP cannot be converted from one to the other accurately, and are measuring different physical data depending on case size & shape, and powder used.

[Bruce51]

Originally Posted by OKFC05

If slihouettes are your game, you have the wrong load. The silhouettes go down by momentum transfer (M x V), which is why a 125gr .357 wil ring them and a 240gr .44 will slap them down. It is ballistically easier to add 50% to mass than 50% to speed, and easier on the gun.

Some silhouette shooters shoot what are nearly proof loads (10% over)in their guns, which materially shortens their life. I believe the 42,000 PSI you cited is the "definitive proof load" which is 20% over the rated working pressure. This is the max load the gun design is required to sustain (once) without flying into pieces, and is not a safe working load by any standard.


You might factor in the early replacement of the gun as part of the overall cost and see if light and hot loading is really cheaper.

By the way, you are right that PSI and CUP cannot be converted from one to the other accurately, and are measuring different physical data depending on case size & shape, and powder used.

Great post OKFC05
I wish the OP the best of luck in his load developement.

Bruce

[Shooting4life]

It is going to be tough knocking em down with your load at the long distances. A low hit might not do it. If you are serious about it see if you can track down a maximum (probably going to be a challenge where you are) for more power with the heavies. You could also start casting the 180-200 gr bullets since you mentioned price as a factor.

[Electric Head]

Well that idea about factoring in early replacement of the gun is sound, and since I have heard so many say mass mass mass then I think I will work up some heavier bullet loads, 180 grain ones or so. The cost is still half of factory ammo with jacketed stuff, so it's not too expensive, and I was thinking of using a lighter load (with lead perhaps) for the chickens and pigs at 50 and 100m and the jacketed heavies for the 150m turkeys and 200m rams.

I'm going to pull them, but please I would like to verify this: In terms of detonation would it be safe to pull these cartridges and load them at 14 grains of powder? (90% of 15.4 grains, which absolutely fills the useable case volume)

[Bruce51]

I wish I could remember all the articles that I have read regarding detonation of powder in reduced loads. IIRC this may occur with ball powders in reduced loads. If your powder is not a ball powder then reducing the load volume should be OK.
Most blow ups are caused by over pressure loads not detonation.
Remember explosives detonate and smokeless powder burns to produce pressure.
Double charges of fast burning powder or over max loads of any powder may cause a kaboom.
Barrel obstructions are another cause when rounds are fired after a bullet is stuck in front.
Unless you overcharge or undercharge a ball powder I think you are safe from having a detonation of your loads.
Bruce

[Harrison]

I have seen two guns go Kaboom from detonation. Both were extremely light loads one was something like 2gr of Bullseye in a 357 mag case and 158gr lead bullet. The other was a sub 2 gr charge of Red dot in a 38 special. These were actual ultra light loads, not accidental double charges. heck you could have about tripled the charges and still not blown the top of the cylinder out and bulged the top strap up 3/4".

Supposedly the theory is that with a very light charge, all of the charge is below the primer hole, and forms a sort of shaped charge along the curved bottom of the shell. This causes the damage, not over pressure.

As long as you are not using an ultralight powder charge you are safe from detonation.

[Bruce51]

Originally Posted by Harrison

I have seen two guns go Kaboom from detonation. Both were extremely light loads one was something like 2gr of Bullseye in a 357 mag case and 158gr lead bullet. The other was a sub 2 gr charge of Red dot in a 38 special. These were actual ultra light loads, not accidental double charges. heck you could have about tripled the charges and still not blown the top of the cylinder out and bulged the top strap up 3/4".

Supposedly the theory is that with a very light charge, all of the charge is below the primer hole, and forms a sort of shaped charge along the curved bottom of the shell. This causes the damage, not over pressure.

As long as you are not using an ultralight powder charge you are safe from detonation.

As far as I know no ballistic laboratory has ever reproduced a detonation in hand loaded ammo. I don't believe that there is enough energy in two grains of any smokeless powder to detonate and blow up a gun.
When it comes right down to it, kabooms are caused by improperly reloaded ammunition.
Reminds me of the .223 thread awhile back. Factory reloads blew up an AR. The theory was two bullets were seated into the case.
Bruce

[Electric Head]

Cool! I feel a lot better about going ahead and pulling and reducing to 14 now, and with time and experience hope to not need so much assurance. The powder is a teeny little extruded cylinder.

I asked about detonation on another forum and they said similar things, basically a myth and applies more to half empty rifle shells with slow powder.

Just gotta make myself double and triple check more before starting to load some tests up.

DOH I thought I posted this quick reply.

Well anyway I've pulled them already and redone them, got a couple 13.7 and 13.9, a few 14.0, a couple 14.2 and 14.4 and a few 14.5. I was aiming for 12 of each 14.0 and 14.5, got the majority right, just the few during the adjustment period were a little off.

[Electric Head]

Well yesterday I shot them and my test target 38s and last night loaded up 200 of the target rounds and 73 of the 14.5 grain 357 mag rounds. It is about 85 to 90% as punchy as the factory Winchester 158 grain SJFN rounds.

It is good being able to visually check the 357 loads easy as I am doing them. A double charge would overflow the case, so that's easy to spot, and with the procedure I am trying to drill into myself it should be basically impossible.

With a lot of initial checking and spot checking every 25 - 30, and not rushing it I got the 200 target 38s done and packed up all the gear in 1.5 hours, I think I'm going to appreciate spending the extra money for the gear I got.

I read from someone else this technique - they always stop, if interrupted, at the same spot, bullet in charged case at seating die, new brass in resizing die, all you need to do is pull the lever and you're off again. Basically any case that is charged immediately gets a bullet put on top.

Oh and I've found a source for the same brand / type of lead projectiles that will send 180 grainers to my door for the same price as I bought these others from the shop so I'll be using 180 grain FN for metallic silhouette now, once I get rid of the ones I have loaded.

Thanks again for the help!

[Damn Yankee]

If you can get your hands on a Speer # 11 book there is a section about loading heavy bullets for silhouette shooting.