Questions About MIM And The Frame Mounted Firing Pin

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Nick B

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1st question: Has anybody actually seen a MIM trigger or hammer fail on a S&W ?
#2: What was the purpose of Smith doing away with the hammer mounted firing pin and going to the frame mounted pin ?
Thanks,
Nick
 
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1. No. It's not so much catastrophic failure as faster wear leading to shorter parts life.
2. Cheaper to make.
Denis
 
I think competetion shooters with 10's and 10's of thousands of rounds on their MIM S&W's would disagree that the parts wear out faster........there are pages of debates on this, many feel MIM is actually a longer wearing part than forged, but I'm sure someone will come in and dispute all of this as usual. There's only about 10 years of "field data" on the MIM guns vs. over 100 years with the forged parts, so it will take some time for something "new" to be accepted, I think.

The early MIM parts had failures in the late 90's -early 2000's when S&W was perfecting this new technology, now they pretty much got it down. MIM parts require no fitting, they just drop in.

This is a "can of worms" topic, because now many people will stop in to this thread to take a shot at the MIM S&W's. I won't add fuel to the fire, I have many older forged part S&W's and new MIM S&W's and I love my MIM guns, all I have to say. They are fantastic shooters.

The frame mounted firing pin, is also a topic used to "bash" new S&W's, although Ruger has used them since the 50's, and they have been used in revolvers since the 1890's by some European gunmakers. But still it's seen as "cheap" by some despite the fact that it's far from a new technology.

The frame mounted pin makes it easier to "tune" the new S&W's since a longer pin, like a Cylinder & Slide extended firing pin, can be dropped in to allow for use of lighter mainsprings with no FTF's. I did it with my 10-14 with a Wilson Combat mainspring, the above mentioned extended pin, and the action is like butter and it shoots like a laser, and I expect it to do so for a very long time.

People who ignore the MIM revolvers are missing out on some excellent shooting and sharp looking guns IMO.
 
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Thanks for the detailed reply Stantheman86 . I ask this because I'm looking at a 686-5 that the local shop has . It's in "as new" condition and this would be my first Smith with the MIM parts and frame firing pin . But still no lock .
 
MIM has been used in car engines for some time now. From my point of view, a connecting rod will be under considerably more stress than a pistol or revolver action. For instance, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 7.0L Corvette engine have MIM connecting rods and torque figures in the ball park of the muzzle energies of most pistol and revolver cartridges? Running this same engine at high rpm gives peak horsepower and torque figures, and stresses these components 6,000-7,000 times per minute. I don't shoot that much, do you? If so, I would like to have a crack at your mini-gun.
 
If the price is fair I would be all over it! Is it a 4" or a 6"? A 6" 686 with a 1x or 2x optic would be an awesome all-around shooter......I have a Tasco Pro Class 1x "Black Dot" scope just itching for a 686+ to go with it......a 4" 686-5 would be an awesome multi-purpose gun, too, everything from concealed carry, home defense, range shooting, it's got it all covered. The fact that they are Round Butts is just a bonus.

MIM technology isn't going anywhere, in fact it's a growing technology. You will notice many people are very nostalgic when it comes to firearms, especially S&W revolvers and for good reason. But some of the info you get will not be based on fact, but opinion and emotion in that the dislike of some for the MIM revolvers, because the the dislike of "change" will translate into "those new S&W's are trash" type opinions of them.

I prefer to remain open minded and am willing to try new technologies, I was also hesitant to try my first MIM S&W about 3 years ago because everyone told me "they suck", and needless to say I went on to buy 2 more of them and I have a 64-8 and another 10-14 on order from my dealer. I am also a guy who likes to be thankful for what I have, rather than wish for something that won't happen......S&W will never go back to forged parts but I am glad they still make new revolvers. The new stuff is great and the fact that new ones are still rolling out keeps the prices of a lot of the older used ones down........imagine what would happen if S&W ceased revolver production, good luck finding an older 586 or 28 for less than $1,000, or a 27 or 29 for less than $2,000 if S&W didn't make new 686's,629's, 29 Classics, or 627's anymore........let me go to my dealer and order a new Colt Python, oh wait, never mind, I would have to pay over $1,500 for a nice used one because there is no new one!
 
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617X10 said:
MIM has been used in car engines for some time now. From my point of view, a connecting rod will be under considerably more stress than a pistol or revolver action. For instance, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 7.0L Corvette engine have MIM connecting rods and torque figures in the ball park of the muzzle energies of most pistol and revolver cartridges? Running this same engine at high rpm gives peak horsepower and torque figures, and stresses these components 6,000-7,000 times per minute. I don't shoot that much, do you? If so, I would like to have a crack at your mini-gun.
Click to expand...

The 6.2L LS-6 Corvette engine uses PM connecting rods and they are the strongest steel rods Chevy has ever made. The new LS-7 currently has Titanium connecting rods. However the GMPP LS-7 carburated engine featured PM rods last time I bought one of the catalogs. Personally, in a supercharged application I'd prefer the PM rods, IMO they are a bit stronger than the titanium. If I were building a 10,000 RPM normally aspirated screamer, titanium would be the way to go.

As for failures on the MIM parts, I've only seen one single posting about an MIM part failing on a recent production gun. In that case the poster had the hammer spur break off and he admitted it was probably due to many thousands of dry fire cycles. If you're not using snap caps it's a heck of a shock to the hammer when it hits the frame.
 
My comments are based on discussions with the S&W PC as well as a local S&W-certified gunsmith I've done business with for over 25 years.
I don't care what MIM parts do in Corvette engines. :)

Buy MIM or not, I don't care & I'm not participating in a DO or DON'T war, I was addressing the original question. The changes were not made because the results were better, just cheaper to make.
Denis
 
Sintered parts don't stop Colt Kool-Aid drinkers from sucking up King Cobras and Trooper III's for $800......

This MIM debate goes on and on, again I'll just say I buy them, I shoot them and I'm happy with them. The day one of them fails on me due to a MIM part, especially the 10-14 I shoot 100-200 rounds through a week, I will be the first to post on this forum, honestly I don't expect it to happen.:)

For what it's worth S&W also uses MIM parts in their M&P pistols and some "high end" 1911's out there are full of MIM parts and no one complains about them.......it's all relative and opinions have to be taken with a grain of salt.

If there were an internet back in 1947 or so, when S&W went from the "long action" to the short action, I'm sure there would be lots of people posting about how the short action guns were "inferior" and cheaper and no one should buy them, but like most things this whole "issue" is long forgotten to history except by the most stubborn curmudgeons...I have heard exactly one (1) older man say he won't buy a S&W with a short action and most people don't even know what the heck he's talking about....perhaps even the same was said when S&W dropped the Triple Lock, S&W fans back then probably accused Smith of "cheaping out"......maybe in 40-50 years the MIM S&W's will finally be "mainstream" and not "some new cheap crap".

S&W had to delete and change features to stay competitive as far as price point, because materials and labor cost more now. There are no more apprentices that want to make $10 an hour for 2 years learning how to fit and assemble revolvers from master revolversmiths at the S&W factory, these "little old men with small files" retired years ago and no one replaced them....... If S&W were to tool up right now and start making Registered Magnums to the same standard as they were in the 30's the guns would cost over $3,000 or more.
 
I agree with Stan the Man's comments about how changing time honored production methods allows Smith and Wesson to compete in today's firearms market. I will tell everyone who can listen this....pay no attention to a collector's elitism. Collectors spend big money on stuff that you can't buy anymore so that when they die someone else can play with it. Muscle cars, old guitars, firearms, same rules apply to all.
 
It's my understanding that MIM parts actually cost more to produce than forged, but save labor costs because they require no hand fitting. My experience has been that with older S&W revolvers the actions are hit-or-miss. Some great, some rough and gritty. Nothing an action job won't fix, but work is frequently needed to make them right. The newer MIM guns are uniformly smooth. No action job required. Install an extended firing pin and lighter springs, then you're ready to go.
 
pinkymingeo said:
It's my understanding that MIM parts actually cost more to produce than forged, but save labor costs because they require no hand fitting. My experience has been that with older S&W revolvers the actions are hit-or-miss. Some great, some rough and gritty. Nothing an action job won't fix, but work is frequently needed to make them right. The newer MIM guns are uniformly smooth. No action job required. Install an extended firing pin and lighter springs, then you're ready to go.
Click to expand...

Interesting. The argument here progresses from "just as good as" to "even better than.";) That's a tough sell.

I have no experience with MIM guns, not because I necessarily think they are inferior, but just as a matter of preference. I have purchased dozens of new and slightly used S&Ws manufactured between 1948 and 1980. I can truthfully say that I have never gotten one with an action that was "rough and gritty."

Methinks you are overstating your case just a little. Either that, or you are confusing Taurus look-alikes with the real thing.
 
I remember years ago a article Skeeter Skelton wrote on if he could build his perfect gun. One of the features he mentioned was having a frame mounted firing pin, like the colts had. I dont see a problem with frame mounted firing pins and actually prefer them.
 
The older revolvers with the hammer mounted firing pins were just too boring. Hearing BANG every time you pulled the trigger got too predictable and monotonous. Now with MIM hammers and frame mounted firing pins you get the excitement of wondering if you'll get a CLICK when you pull the trigger of your new improved and "updated" revolver.

Dave Sinko
 
David Sinko said:
The older revolvers with the hammer mounted firing pins were just too boring. Hearing BANG every time you pulled the trigger got too predictable and monotonous. Now with MIM hammers and frame mounted firing pins you get the excitement of wondering if you'll get a CLICK when you pull the trigger of your new improved and "updated" revolver.

Dave Sinko
Click to expand...

Over a dozen years of MIM-equipped revolvers, both on-duty and off, with thousands of rounds fired and not one "CLICK" due to MIM parts failure. A turn to semi-autos and the problems began......
 
The "MIM bashing" has turned into a bandwagon type thing, many people don't know anything about them and have never even fired one, let alone own one but they will be the first to tell a new buyer what "pieces of junk they are". I'll bet there are numerous secret "converts" floating around here who tried a MIM gun and actually love it, but will never admit it for fear of having some words to eat......:p

If a S&W fan totally shuns MIM guns than their experience with revolvers from Smith pretty much ends with the late 1990's.......they will miss out on all the really neat new wheelguns coming out now and in the future. I guess they also must not want a .500 or a .460, or any of the new PC guns, with those crappy MIM parts and all;) The old guns are great, no doubt, as I said I have dozens of them, but there's no way I'm going to pass up all the really nice stuff S&W keeps adding to the catalog.

Either way, another advantage is working on a MIM revolver is that they go together like Legos......everything is a drop in, slip fit, even the DA hammer dog, the stirrup, all the parts in the trigger, all of it slides apart and slides back together. No stoning or filing to get a new hammer to work if you want to upgrade to a target hammer, etc.

The same people who bash the frame mounted firing pin are the same ones who would fall all over themselves sucking up a K-22 if they saw one for a nice price.
 
I hate to ruin this lovefest, but the MIM frame-mounted firing pin in my M&P 340 broke at the range today.

I bought this revolver brand-new less than three weeks ago and, when the firing pin broke, I had less than 100 rounds through it.

Now I've been carrying and shooting S&W revolvers for over 40 years and this is the first firing pin I've had break on any of them including others with frame-mounted firing pins.

Bad luck? Probably. I'm guessing I was overdue for a broken firing pin after four decades without one, but what gives me pause is that I did a search on "broken firing pin" and, apparently, there have been a number of such incidents within the last few months. A bad batch? Possibly. In any case, I'm replacing my broken firing pin with one from Cylinder & Slide.

For the record, I don't think there is a thing wrong with frame-mounted firing pins, especially considering the fact that outfits like Ruger have been using them in their revolvers since Day 1. Regarding MIM parts, I just don't know, but instinct tells me that with the millions upon millions of such parts out there, if they were truly inferior, we'd be seeing wholesale failures and the hue and cry to get rid of them would be deafening.
 
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I like this kind of "field" info, based on fact. I like to hear all, good or bad, 1st hand. One of the rare times when it wasn't "my brothers 2nd cousin's boss" type info:) XTrooper, Did you dry fire it at all, or did the pin just give out from just range shooting?

I have a Cylinder & Slide extended firing pin in my 10-14, recently I heard that THEY let out a "bad batch" and people had a bunch of breaks with the C&S pins:eek: I'll have my fingers crossed I didn't get a "bad" one, let's hope for the best I guess! The info I read is old, from last year I just hope I didn't get one Midway had laying around for a while. I have a few hundred rounds with the C&S pin, so I'm hoping I'm out of the woods since the "bad batch" pins seem to break right away......
 
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