Scandium frames???

corgiS&W · Jun 21, 2011

Although I've not used my Ph.D. in metallurgy and materials science professionally for many years, I do know that S&W does not make revolver frames from scandium. Scandium is a rare-earth metal [originally mined in Scandinavia] that is used almost exclusively as an alloying agent to improve the properties of aluminum alloys. These alloys generally contain between 0.1 to 0.5% scandium. (from Wikipedia article on scandium: The American gunmaking company Smith & Wesson produces revolvers with frames composed of scandium alloy and cylinders of titanium.) I suppose they really should have said it was an aluminum-scandium alloy, just as they should have said the cylinders are a titanium-based alloy. Heck, almost everything is an alloy; even 18k gold has 25% of copper and nickel in it.

I just found this article which may help explain: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_53/ai_n19313631/

dla · Jun 21, 2011

I don't care if they mixed in weasel spit - S&W produces the ideal carry revolvers.

SAFireman · Jun 21, 2011

dla said:
I don't care if they mixed in weasel spit - S&W produces the ideal carry revolvers.

Careful now....In Washington state, Weasels are considered deadly weapons...you should see that thread

Maximumbob54 · Jun 21, 2011

It does state the it makes an alloy of Al3Sc. So while I won't start trying to come up with a mole value of the two, it is roughly said a three parts aluminum to one part scandium. So about a quarter of it (real rough measure, I know) is scandium to aluminum? Am I way off here? Chemistry police, coming to arrest me? Am I drawing too many conclusions?

Maximumbob54 · Jun 21, 2011

SAFireman said:
Careful now....In Washington state, Weasels are considered deadly weapons...you should see that thread

Correction: dead marten...

off road · Jun 21, 2011

OP might have just figured this out, but otherwise this has been pretty common knowledge, for a long time now......

Tom C · Jun 21, 2011

The problem I have with aluminum frames, whether alloyed with Scandium or not, is that aluminum has no region of elastic deformation without plastic deformation. With steel, when it is stressed below the plastic deformation limit, it will go back to its original shape. Aluminum won’t. It will be slightly deformed. I am concerned that over time my aluminum framed revos will stretch the frames. Of course to do that I would have to be a masochist to be able to shoot that much full power ammo in a very nasty recoiling gun, but it still concerns me. I have steel versions of the guns to shoot for normal range work. The aluminum guns are for carry.

corgiS&W · Jun 21, 2011

Maximumbob54 said:
It does state the it makes an alloy of Al3Sc. So while I won't start trying to come up with a mole value of the two, it is roughly said a three parts aluminum to one part scandium. So about a quarter of it (real rough measure, I know) is scandium to aluminum? Am I way off here? Chemistry police, coming to arrest me? Am I drawing too many conclusions?

I believe the reference to Al3Sc is the compound that forms in small amounts that enhances the properties of the alloy in general.

corgiS&W · Jun 21, 2011

off road said:
OP might have just figured this out, but otherwise this has been pretty common knowledge, for a long time now......

No, I sort of ignored it for a long time, but today it just bothered me enough to write the post. Referring to scandium frames is akin to calling stainless frames by their nickel or chromium alloying elements, or in the worst case calling blued steel as having carbon frames because there is a fraction of a percent of carbon in practically all steels.

Besides, I was a professor for a number of years and my wife continues to admonish me for reverting to the teacher mode.

lebomm · Jun 21, 2011

Maximumbob54 said:
Correction: dead marten...

Yes, that's better ! Dead marten spit has a marvelous effect of improving the surface lubricity of most Al alloys.

Larry

Loco Weed · Jun 21, 2011

Because "Scandium" is quicker on the tongue and sounds sexier than "aluminum-scandium alloy."

Dave T · Jun 21, 2011

Loco Weed said:
Because "Scandium" is quicker on the tongue and sounds sexier than "aluminum-scandium alloy."

Also, it's a great marketing scheme to refer to the guns as "Scandium" framed and put that atom diagram on them. Makes everyone think they don't have an aluminum framed revolver but something much stronger. All those pictures that have been posted on the internet of cracked and broken frames don't look so strong but the advertising scheme still works. Very business savvy of S&W.

Dave

lamb · Jun 21, 2011

corgiS&W said:
Although I've not used my Ph.D. in metallurgy and materials science professionally for many years, I do know that S&W does not make revolver frames from scandium. Scandium is a rare-earth metal [originally mined in Scandinavia] that is used almost exclusively as an alloying agent to improve the properties of aluminum alloys. These alloys generally contain between 0.1 to 0.5% scandium. (from Wikipedia article on scandium: The American gunmaking company Smith & Wesson produces revolvers with frames composed of scandium alloy and cylinders of titanium.) I suppose they really should have said it was an aluminum-scandium alloy, just as they should have said the cylinders are a titanium-based alloy. Heck, almost everything is an alloy; even 18k gold has 25% of copper and nickel in it.

I just found this article which may help explain: Straight scoop on scandium | Guns Magazine | Find Articles at BNET

Thanks, thats good information. My question will aluminum Airweight frames hold up as long or as well as the titanium models.

Old cop · Jun 21, 2011

CorgiS&W - I for one appreciate the info, very interesting. Thanks!

off road · Jun 21, 2011

Tom C said:
I have steel versions of the guns to shoot for normal range work. The aluminum guns are for carry.

Yes!

The word 'scandium' as applied to S&W frames, is just slang for ultralight models (eg AirLite J-frames). This is just a simple way to distinguish them from the light aluminum frame models (eg AirWeight). I don't know anyone (perhaps until now) who ever labored under the misconception that the frames were made completely of scandium.

pwhphd · Jun 21, 2011

CorgiS&W - I use my Ph.D. in Business Management daily and I can assure everyone that Smith & Wesson is keenly aware of the true accuracy of your post, while masking the real nature of their alloys. Loco Weed and Dave T are most nearly correct. It is all intended to market a revolver that is promoted as being superior in several regards while masking the true limitations of the metals. Like Old cop, I also appreciate the very interesting information that we perhaps already knew on a layman's level.

f2 · Jun 21, 2011

off road said:
...The word 'scandium' as applied to S&W frames, is just slang for ultralight models (eg AirLite J-frames).

My S&W 342 AirLite Titanium has a titanium cylinder and aluminum frame.

Snowbandit · Jun 21, 2011

My model 340 will either outlive me or I get to exercise my rights under the lifetime warranty policy. I don't figure on spending much time worrying about it one way or the other.

off road · Jun 21, 2011

f2 said:
My S&W 342 AirLite Titanium has a titanium cylinder and aluminum frame.

Ok, so to be technically correct, yes I should have inserted '.357' AirLite J-frames in there.

The 342 (my daily carry gun!) is only an 'AirLite' because of the Ti cylinder. The frame is really no different from an AirWeight.

jessegpresley · Jun 22, 2011

This would be exciting news, if I had a Delorean that went back in time;-)

Scandium frames???

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