Cylinder does not always Cycle

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smitty65

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Hi, I am new to the forum I looked for this answer, so please forgive if this is already answered and point me there.

I have a 44 Magnum (model 629) bought in 1983, after the kids were born, I stopped shooting till about 2 years ago. At first the weapon performed as expected.

Now, when shooting the cylinder does not always cycle. It seems to happen once or twice every 6 rounds. At first I thought it was misfires, but if I manually cock the weapon, it cycles and there were no unfired rounds. Then I thought it needs a good clean/lube session but it still occurs.

Does anyone know what these symptoms indicate? :confused:

Is this a relatively simple fix or should I look for a gunsmith?

Thanks in advance for any help.
 
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Have it checked by a qualified gunsmith, sounds like a worn hand possibly.

Sent from my LG-VS410PP using Tapatalk 2
 
First thing...clean it.

The hand that rotate the cylinder is not engaging. It could be damaged, or more likely not moving freely due to dried up old lube.

If you are comfortable taking it apart, strip it and clean it thoroughly. If you don't want to take the side plate off, just hose it out with some spray cleaner. It's not as good a way to clean it, but may work in a pinch. Spray, cycle, spray some more, cycle..... until it seems to clear up. Follow with some light lube.
 
A more detailed explanation may be necessary, it could be the relatively common problem of the cylinder stop becoming disengaged during recoil and the cylinder rotates backwards. When you try to fire the next round, the round you just fired is lined up with the barrel.

Just a possibility, let us know, Steve
 
629

smitty65 said:
At first I thought it was misfires, but if I manually cock the weapon, it cycles and there were no unfired rounds.
Click to expand...

Not sure what your meaning is on this?

I'm guessing you have a 629-1? If so, they do not have the Endurance Package &, like USBP SW was saying, if the trouble happens after you fire a round & cock it, but it doesn't fire because you're striking the same (fired) round again, it's because the recoil made the cylinder unlock & backup one. The Endurance Package fixed that with the 629-2E / 629-3 models. Is this what's happening?

Also what type of ammo were you shooting, hot/full loads?

Welcome to the forum!
 
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You are "short-stroking" the gun.
ALL double-action revolvers rotate the cylinder by action of a "hand" connected to the trigger. If you thumb-cock the gun, the interaction of the hammer to trigger causes the cylinder to turn in sync.
However, when you pull the trigger double-action things work differently.
You fire and release the trigger...you pull again and the cylinder instantly rotates 1/6th of a turn without the hammer cocking....you pull the trigger DA again and this time it fires on the NEXT chamber...meaning you have "skipped" a chamber that still carries a loaded round.

This is due to short-stroking...meaning you release the trigger during a DA cycle but pull again before the trigger has reached full forward position so the hammer fails to cock, but the cylinder rotates. This is common to ALL double-action revolvers and can only be overcome by training (under stress-fire of limited value) or by practicing to thumb cock the revolver using a proper two-hand hold so as to AVOID any potential for the cylinder to skip.
This is NOT an "uncommon" problem...it is an intrinsic function of all DA revolvers so you cannot "fix it" by sending the gun back.

It occurs most often when the user has small hands or too large a grip for the trigger "reach." The "fix" is to reduce grip size, or consider a smaller frame revolver so that your finger is more likely to "allow" a full reset before you pull again during fast strings.

NOTE: This will NEVER happen using DA slow-fire because of course you fully release the trigger!
It happens during DA FAST FIRE when you fail to deliver a full trigger release before stroking again.

There is nothing "wrong" with your gun...it CANNOT be "fixed" because it is doing precisely what it is mechanically built to do.
 
BLUEDOT37 said:
Not sure what your meaning is on this?

I'm guessing you have a 629-1? If so, they do not have the Endurance Package &, like USBP SW was saying, if the trouble happens after you fire a round & cock it, but it doesn't fire because you're striking the same (fired) round again, it's because the recoil made the cylinder unlock & backup one. The Endurance Package fixed that with the 629-2E / 629-3 models. Is this what's happening?

Also what type of ammo were you shooting, hot/full loads?

Welcome to the forum!
Click to expand...

I hope I do this right, as I am not familiar with how to reply yet.

Your guess is correct, it is a 626-1, SS 4" barrel. a Little more detail on the symptoms. I single action the weapon, so I assumed the single action would rotate the cylinder after the initial round fired. And yes, the dead fire occurs when the hammer strikes the just fired (now empty) round. Shooting factory ammo .44 mag 240 grain hollow points. Makes it expensive. I should take extra time to stop at Academy and get regular rounds for about $18/50 rounds.
 
I agree with the short stroking diagnosis. Not saying for sure thats what it is, but its something I would seriously consider before assuming its a problem with the gun. I would sit and dry fire the gun many many times, making sure that the trigger fully resets each time and watching to make sure the cylinder advances each time.

If you find that short stroking is not the problem, then I would look at the possibility that the cylinder is rotating backwards during recoil with hotter loads.

Have you noticed if it does it on random cylinder holes or is it the same one everytime? If it is the same one, check to see if there is any damage to the notches on the ejector star. One of them may be damaged causing the hand to slip by during the fast pull of the trigger.
 
WELCOME FIRST

NOW for the hair splitting/nit picking. With revolvers the cylinders rotate. In semi autos the action cycles. To try and help, I'd first check to see if under recoil/or as new the primers & bullets have not creeped out, causing the cylinder to bind. That would be an ammo problem & where I would look first. Next I would fire slow/deliberately making sure to get your finger off the trigger, after firing, so the trigger can re-set correctly. Beyond that I'd GUESS you are looking at a gun related mechanical issue.
 
629-1 Cylinder unlocking

smitty65 said:
Your guess is correct, it is a 626-1, SS 4" barrel. a Little more detail on the symptoms. I single action the weapon, so I assumed the single action would rotate the cylinder after the initial round fired. And yes, the dead fire occurs when the hammer strikes the just fired (now empty) round. Shooting factory ammo .44 mag 240 grain hollow points. Makes it expensive. I should take extra time to stop at Academy and get regular rounds for about $18/50 rounds.
Click to expand...

This definitely sounds like the cylinder's unlocking & backing up one chamber, as mentioned. I've had this happen on occassion with my 29-2. Other than making sure the locking notches in the cylinder, & the locking bolt at the bottom of the frame window, are clean & undamaged/no burrs, I don't know what else to suggest (maybe someone else can) other than to try some reduced loads to see how it does. Also make sure the bolt moves up & down freely. I guess it could be dirty inside (would have to remove the sideplate to clean) which could be causing the problem if it hasn't been cleaned/oiled in there in a while.

Let us know what you find.

PS: Just remembered that I had found my 29-2 had developed noticeable endshake & I installed two .0002" shims/bearings to fix it. Check your endshake (with the cylinder closed & uncocked, push the cylinder rearward to see if it has any noticeable movement). If it's excessive I would think it could have a bearing on your problem & the unlocking. (The rearward movement caused by too much endshake (play) could cause the bolt to come out of it's notch, which is one of the features, a longer notch, that the Endurance Pkg. added.) Just a thought.
 
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In order for any cylinder to "unlock and back up" there must be a mechanical interface that permits. No such interface exists on any S&W.
With the trigger fully held to the rear, hammer falls and ignites primer. At this time the cylinder stop (bolt) is engaged with NO MECHANICAL WAY to disengage. The hand is fully deployed - meaning UP and CANNOT - absolutely CAN NOT "disengage" because the hand is anchored to the trigger and as long as the trigger is back the hand MUST be UP! There cannot be any other interaction.
At the same time, the cylinder ratchet only goes ONE WAY. With the hand up, the ratchet CAN NOT "reverse!.
With all due respect - despite what is casually observed, an un-hit primer after any DA string of more than TWO shots, IS operator induced, chamber skip.
I can take ANY double action revolver and demonstrate chamber skip repeatedly....I can cycle a cylinder a full revolution - 6 chambers without ONCE causing the hammer to cock....there is no brand that is immune....
I don't wish to offend anyone, but mythology and lore is not the approach to diagnosing mechanical devices.
 
The hammer always hits the already fired primer when it malfunctions?

Are you shooting quickly?

Is the gun skipping any rounds in 6 shots?

Could the hand spring be weak or hand binding and occasionally not doing its job of rotating the cylinder?

Does this happen when dry firing?

Don't want to be an armchair gunsmith. Just reading and asking questions.
 
On older Smiths the cylinder could unlock under hard recoil and flop out, but this was due to the engagement of the latch and spring force, and since S&W cylinders rotate counter clockwise the FIXED, UNYIELDING hand sticking out - especially during fast fire where rotational inertia was still present at the moment fire, the cylinder was free to pop out laterally. Modern Smiths do not do this. The fix was a longer reach on the center locking pin as well as crane-mount ball-detention.

El-cheapo revolvers can "reverse" rotate because of tolerances and poor design. The drag created by the dropping hand can pull the ratchet downward causing reverse rotation, however a Smith's cylinder stop is snapped into place during the hand's retraction sequence. Assuming significant tolerance variation (wear), any revolver MIGHT reverse rotate AFTER the gun goes boom, but not on a new, quality designed revolver....
Statistically speaking MORE individual items MUST FAIL mechanically to allow a cylinder to reverse, than to allow a non-hammer cock, chamber skip. Plus, a cylinder reversal situation is EASY to diagnose because it can be observed within one, maybe two rotations if fresh, and EVERY chamber if mature. An operator-induced chamber skip will ONLY appear during rapid-fire DA strings, and will be non-reproducible during a slow-fire sequence where full release occurs.
 
Hi Guys, good discussion here. I have spoken to my father in law too, who has gunsmith abilities and is a Combat vet from Nam, so he knows guns pretty well.

First I appreciate all the suggestions and comments. I have video of this occurring, I don't know if I can figure out how to get from my iphone to post on this forum though. I don't think its is short stroke. These are very deliberate shots and deliberate thumb cocking. Since initial posting I have done a more thorough cleaning, and dry fire rapidly. The cylinder functions properly with out fail.

My next step is to break down the revolver, remove the cylinder and plate to really clean the guts. After that I will try again with the same ammo that failed. I still have about 25 rounds.

If that fails my father in law said I would have to have it "tuned" as it sounds like it is slightly out of sync.

I will update after firing Friday ( I am scheduled to hit the range on Friday) barring some work emergency.
 
It has already been suggested, but I'll second it. Look closely at the cylinder stop and spring. From personal experience - poor engagement will allow the cylinder to backup in fast DA mode, leading to trying to shoot the already fired round. Problem was corrected by replacing the stop and spring. If the spring is ok, but the stop has a problem, it might be possible to do some filework on the stop to get it working right.
 
Hi Guys,

Just got back from the range. Cycled through about 18 rounds of 190 grain Remington ammo. Worked flawlessly, then 2 shots into cylinder 4, mis fire. Opened the cylinder, it hit on the previous round that was just fired.

Was shooting single action, slow and deliberate, So disappointed it happened again after that serious cleaning. On the bright side, it was significantly better the a couple of times a cylinder.

A side note, the gun just brought the range to a standstill, every one was just in awe. My wife had jaws dropping when she fired a cylinder! Date night at the range.:D

I guess I will have to talk to a gunsmith.:mad:

Smitty
 
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