I bought two 386 Night Guards over the last two months. One was New In The Box and manufactured in 2012. The other was Like New In The Box and manufactured in 2008. This one might have had 2 cylinder put through it at most.

Both are incredible guns. However, on the NIB first one made in 2012 the timing was clearly off on two chambers. In both SA and DA slow dry firing, 2 cylinders always failed to lock up.I sent it back to S&W for repair two weeks ago and still waiting for word on it.

Much to my surprise, the second one I picked up last week has a timing issue as well. However, it doesn't happen every time. There is one chamber that every few very slow SA and DA cycles does not fully lock up. If I dry fire it rapidly DA there doesn't seem to be a problem. But slowly cycling it in DA and SA I can get it to happen.

This is an issue because when I am at the range and shooting for accuracy in DA I slowly stack the trigger. I noticed yesterday after I fired it on that one suspect chamber it did not lock up after firing. I was free to rotate the cylinder right back. Only happened once in 70 rounds, but it did happen.

Is this acceptable in any way? I would think not.

I should note that if I pull the hammer back firmly and swiftly, it locks up perfectly on every chamber every time.

Is this an issue with cylinders that have more than 6 rounds? I own three revolvers that are 7 shot, these two 386NGs, and a 686PC 2.5" and two of the three have timing issues.

I currently own 9 S&W revolvers. The timing is perfect on all of them except these two Night Guards. Even my old 65 Lady Smith, that was being used as a rental at a local shooting range before I rescued it, has perfect timing.

What do you guys think, does this Night Guard have to go back to S&W too? Can timing improve as a new revolver gets broken in? I would think it would only get worse.

Bought one of the 686 2.5 Performance center guns recently. It does it about every other turn of the cylinder. I shoot liked you.haven't fired it yet as I see other issues and will Likely send it back.
JR

My 686PC 2.5" that I picked up 6 weeks ago is perfect in every respect. I have fired 300 rounds without issue. Timing is perfect in both SA and DA. Sweet gun. Sorry you are having problems.

I would make sure the revolver is clean and properly lubricated. If it still does not lock up consistently with no extra drag on the cylinder, it needs professional attention.

When staging the trigger on my favorite 642-1 it locks up a fraction of an inch before the end of the trigger stroke. A retired LEO, who is the lead range master at our local Pima Pistol Club range, clued me into using that final click of the lock dropping to the slot as a way to get near single action accuracy out of a double action only revolver.

He tells me that technique allowed him to improve his qualification scores nicely. In my somewhat inexperienced opinion, I believe all revolvers should work that way.

I'm sure that an experienced S&W smith will agree when you ask them to work on it.

You'll get different opinions on this. Some feel that so long as you're getting proper lock up firing at normal speeds, the piece is "enough" in time.

I disagree -- the cylinder stop should drop into its notch ahead of hammer lock on every charge hole, every time, in double and single action whether using my left or right hand no matter what angle the revolver's held at (all of these things can produce slightly different timing results).

Failure to carry up is not a problem that gets better. If it's minimal, its affect can be negligible, especially for normal shooting; more pronounced can affect accuracy and, eventually, safety.

I think it should be corrected.

Staging the trigger, as it's called, can definitely bring one's quals up, but risks putting one in the habit of staging, and is a risky method in a self-defense situation: too much time and too many fine motor skills required under circumstances that don't lend to either -- becomes an easy way to send lead when and where you don't mean to.

If armed self-defense isn't a consideration, stage away; but if it is, probably best to focus on smooth, deliberate double action pulls.

"Two New S&Ws with Bad Timing - Should Perfect Timing Be Expected?"

My answer is: Yes.

And this doesn't apply to only timing. If I buy a gun NIB it is expected to work as it should. If it doesn't, it goes back to the LGS for an exchange or a refund...I don't fool around waiting weeks or months for the factory (any factory) to fix it.

These we As New In The Box "used" guns bought from individuals on Gunbroker. So not an option here. Otherwise I agree with you.

Hap,
When I pull the hammer back swiftly and firmly it locks up perfectly every time on every chamber. Same with DA swift and firm pulls. It is only when I stage in DA and pull the hammer back slowly in SA do I get one of the chambers not locking up sometimes.

So I guess it is a question of how to properly check for timing? Since the timing is fine when the trigger/hammer is used as intended, should I be concerned?

Traditional proper check for carry up is at slow speed, double and single action, at multiple angles. In swift DA or SA, a revolver with bad carry up will still time due to inertia, which is why some will argue it's no big deal. I think a revolver should carry up properly no matter the speed at which it's made to.

Please listen to Hapworth. He really knows revolvers. And don't worry about not being able to send it to the S&W factory. Find a competent revolversmith and have him check the timing on the used gun, if not both.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Sad. Even the front of the ejector rod is all buggered up. I was first one at shop who handled it too.
JR.

I shoot from the hip at 7 yards in one fluid motion. I only stage my triggers at 25 and 50 yards which I had to shoot to qualify as a LE instructor.
JR

I'd accept an ugly gun before I accepted one where the mechanics weren't sound.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

No problem sending them back to S&W. They picked up the first one two weeks ago. I'm sure they will pick this one up as well.

Should Perfect Timing Be Expected?

In a revolver? Absolutely.

Otherwise, get a semiautomatic pistol, fer cryin' out loud.

A revolver whose cylinder isn't correctly timed is inaccurate, and may even sometimes be non-functional.

Good quality control is too often a thing of the past, unfortunately.

May be a dumb question but are there empty cases in the chambers when you check the timing?

Not dumb at all. I've found the seven shooters particularly benefit. Can't hurt- costs nothing to try it and see if it helps.

I have checked the timing with and without empty cases. Same result.

Somebody said be sure it's clean. Then with no drag on the cylinder, see if it locks up. Nope - you want to do quite the opposite. You actually want a little drag on the cylinder. Pull the trigger slowly while using your weak hand thumb to apply a very slight amount of drag to the cylinder.

Going slowly prevents inertia from locking the cylinder prematurely and the drag from your thumb takes out the slop in the works. If it doesn't lock up on all notches, send 'er back to S&W!

Agreed. A member recently posted in another thread that no revolver will time properly if even a little drag is put to the cylinder and in my experience that can't be further from the truth. A very gentle bit of support-hand thumb pressure against cylinder rotation can reveal a worn or damaged hand, causing slippage. It's definitely a good check.

OP Here:
I just got a tracking label for my friendly rep at S&W who took care of my last 386NG with the same problem that I am still waiting to receive back. So 386NG number two is off to the Motherland today.

Kind of annoying buying 2 new guns that both cost a fortune and have to send them both back for repair. Now I have neither of them!

Have found not too many perfectly timed S&Ws, new or old, over the years. Have sorted quite a few myself but others I have don't get messed with. One favorite, a 1990s 625, is very uniformly short timed! By a good amount. But everything else, including the way it shoots, is super good. I just finish turning the clyinder into lock with the index finger when shooting. Afraid to mess with it as it's my absolute best cast bullet launcher....

IMHO their QC has been allowed to slip over recent years. I will NOT say that I never got a poorly fitted /adjusted gun from them in the 70's or 80's (I did have a few) but they were certainly fewer and farther between back then.

The building and Manufacturing process has changed so much that they are now employing more people with better computer skills and less mechanical abilities. I'll bet there are few to none in their employee who would even have the skill to grind and polish a new hammer mounted firing pin as on the older Smiths. Because of the way they make their guns now it's probably less expensive for them to replace a few guns a month than to hire REAL GS's who would make sure they went out the door right to begin with. CERTAINLY NOT isolated to the Gun Industry!!

"Perfect" timing can involve a number of angels dancing on a pinhead. Absolute minimum standard : All chambers should pass a "Field" range rod , when cycled slowly with light drag on cylnder.

Recently picked up a 38 Special M&P from the early fifties. Pre times as it should. I would guess they are not hand fitting the parts. The MIM is supposed to be that good. A new revolver should carry up.

Why are you even asking the question? If the timing is bad, the gun is probably broken or really dirty and should be fixed or cleaned.

The guns are immaculate. The guns are not "broken". After much reading on this forum I'm learning timing is somewhat of a subjective thing. People have different definitions of what is acceptable when it come to correct timing. Hence the need to ask the question.

If you read my post carefully...when slowly pulling the hammer back the gun does not fully lock up on every chamber. When pulling the hammer back swiftly and firmly, it locks up perfectly. I was trying to determine how bad the timing was by asking the question, hence the title of my post.

I don't believe that either the hand or the ratchets are MIM parts.

That's just plain sad and sorry work. S&W, like all makers, has its screw-ups, and that is certainly an example.

Back in the 1960's and '70's, I rejected about 8 in every 10 new revolvers that I considered buying, for timing defects. Don't recall it on Rugers, but on both Colt and S&W. Some had additional problems, too. And it happened on Astra and Llama guns. Taurus was not yet a serious brand in the USA and I never checked one.

Harry Archer, who worked for US AID, teaching cops and soldiers in other countries, had friends at the S&W factory. He also did limited writing for a gun magazine. We corresponded after I read his fascinating accounts of using S&W revolvers in Amazonian jungles. Harry told me that if I couldn't get a new gun that was timed right, to send it back to S&W under warranty and to demand that it be "re-timed to minimum tolerances." He often did that.

BTW, he got a three-inch barreled nickeled M-19 that did very well by him in Amazonia, but the finish was badly damaged by the elements in that rain forest environment. He also had an early Model 60 snub 38. It was the first stainless model, and he was ecstatic that it didn't rust or lose chunks of rifling to the elements. Both guns fared well on jungle-range shots at deer, tapir; even a jaguar or two. He did load the M-60 very hot.


For the record, he really favored hard chromed Colt .45 autos as a best use handgun under most circumstances. (Colt was not then making these in stainless.) He pointed out that most small parts that might break were more easily changed out in such an auto. But he was also quite fond of S&W revolvers...if they were made right!