My son-in-law and I are trying to get my daughter interested in a handgun. She has a shotgun for home defense, but we both think she ought to also have a carry weapon.

The problem is getting her interested in one. I've had her shoot my Sig P938 9mm and my XDs .45. She didn't like the feel of the Sig, but thought the .45 was "okay."

The two of us have suggested gun after gun: Kimber Solo, Diamondback DB9, Beretta Nano, M&P Shield, and the like. We both think she should pack 9mm or greater, so we're staying away from the .380s (although some are borderline close...).

So, I thought maybe she would think a revolver something more to her liking. I have a J frame 360 (that she hasn't shot yet) in .38 Special that is one of the guns in my EDC rotation.

I got to thinking: Some guns are designed more for women (the reason I have the Tanfoglio Witness Pavona; she thought it was too big), and isn't the Ladysmith from S&W in this category?

I've seen Ladysmith applied to both revolvers and semi-automatics. I found a Model 60LS that I think would be a keeper -- even in my collection -- and that was positively reviewed on The Well-Armed Woman web site.

Am I on the right track? Are there any guns matching my rather vague specification that I could mention to my daughter?

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Eschew Obfuscation.

The 3913LS was getting honorable mention on the forum today.

Hard to say, my wife's a tiny woman only 5'4" has tiny hands and not much muscle. But her favorite shooter in the collection is actually my 8" .500 with 400 grain FMJs that she does well with. Only one round in the cylinder though for fear of the double tap. She caries a .38 bodyguard, and a 9mm star super B (all steal Spanish pistol simmer to a high power)

I'd definitely give give her a chance with a J frame, if you have one. Do you have the option of renting guns at a local range? Or is just that she has no real interest in any gun's?

Just let that high power simmer until the stakes finish cooking. Darn auto type.

Obviously that was supposed to say similar.

A girl and man in MMA can kick your butt for sure. A 158gr lead bullet is the same no mater what you call your gun.

There are a few differences in some Ladysmith products but for all intents and purposes on the J-frame lineup (as it seems the central part of your question), it's just the wood bantam grips and the Ladysmith badge.

Yep. My daughter likes it. Made up some loads for both my girls. The 230 gr .451 45 acp bullet in 460 case with 9 g of HS-6
With the bullet flush with the top of 460 case. Shoots like a 22 at 900fps

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Tony

Show her this article on accessorizing her firearm:

Gun-Toting Women Give Rise To Firearms Fashion Accessories : NPR

i love my model 15. the k frame works for me as does the all steel construction.
9mm in a plastic gun hurts me but 38 spc in a heavy gun doesn't.
for practice she needs a 22lr, my fav round.
it's just fun.

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susie

There are several excellent Lady Smith offerings old and new. There's been debate on the board as to whether they're any different save for stocks and roll marks; some are under the impression the LSs are sprung a little lighter, but there's no definitive proof of this. Having handled many and their non-LS counterparts, I think there's no difference, so best to concentrate on the firearm with the right configuration for the shooter.

That said, it seems you and your son-in-law are pushing a carry weapon on someone who doesn't want one. Given the training, mindset and responsibility required to properly carry and -- if needed -- deploy a personal defense weapon, might be better to let her make her own decisions.

I was at the range when a man was having his daughter and SIL try a bunch of different guns Big guns, little guns, autos and revolvers. The one she liked best was my 4 inch model 10.

From what you say, she is better off with a shotgun.

Lady Smith-wise, my personal opinion is that a 21oz short barrel gun shooting .357magnum loads is a joke, as well as a 14.5oz gun shooting .38 specials. Unless she is willing to do a lot of range shooting with it, it will probably fly from her hand after the first round.

Start with a .22lr revolver. The DA pull will be harder but manageable on most revolvers. My LCR .22 is smooth and not overly difficult to shoot DA. Great cheap training and if she like shooting it maybe she will try a larger caliber later. If not having a gun is better than not having one, for most people, and no one is going to encourage her to shoot them with whatever she is pointing at them. Keep her away from the lite weight J frames- go all steel or move up to the model 10.

I agree with the "let her decide" to a point, but someone lacking in knowledge and training cannot make an informed decision. No one should be forced to carry so gun, but a coherent, reasonable explanation of why it's warranted might be influential and make her more inclined to want to do so.

In terms of specific carry gun choices, consider how it will be carried and how it will likely be used. What may be the most comfortable gun to shoot at the range, will not likely be the most comfortable to carry. The gun most capable of accurate range shooting isn't necessarily the most effective effective weapon against a mugger or rapist at arms length. So, decisions should be made in proper context.

If the goal is to simply be prepared for self-defense rather than be a shooter, the snubnose revolver is a good choice. Expanded explanation from Massad Ayoob... The Real Ladies Gun -- Handguns

And I think the "hammerless" models make sense for a defense weapon, especially an inexperienced individual. The need for some type of long range, precision shot in a civilian self-defense situation is not at all probable, so single action simply isn't needed. And it's not sensible to train using SA since it won't be used in an actual defense scenario. Plus being DAO removes the possibility of cocking the weapon creating a "hair trigger", they are safer for carry as well as not allowing debris and lint to possibly work it's way into the action.

The enclosed hammer could also prove to be an advantage in a close-quarter struggle since the hammer can't be blocked or entangled in clothing.

A 642/442 would make a fine choice and you might consider standard pressure ammunition although the most effective defense loads are +P. My wife and mother have no issues managing and effectively firing the Airweights.

I went through this with my (25 at the time) daughter. Being stupid, I bought her several models to try. This included a Colt Magnum Carry, Ruger SP101, Browning BDA, Sig P230. She ended up liking my friends Glock 17. So that's what she has. My son and son in law were easy but not cheap. They have HK USP compact stainless 9's.

Let her try a few different guns and decide.

Her gun, her choice.
I suggest some type of laser grips or laser equipped no matter what the choice ends up being.
As far as triggers go on a carry revolver (this coming from a J frame fan) the Ruger LCR is the best of the breed IMO right now.

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Straight shootin'
SWCA#2439

S&W marketing understood that by removing the words LADYsmith and replacing with Airweight would increase sales and remove any stigma from men buying the gun. They were right!!

Ladysmith = 642 S&W Airweight.. .38 +P rated, no hammer to hang up.

I sold more of them to first time buyers BOTH men and women, than any other revolver. Ordered them 1000+ at a time.
AIRWEIGHT


LADYSMITH

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

The only downside I see to getting a Ladysmith is it would cut your potential market in half if you ever decide to sell. Personally I would get a 642 with Crimson Trace laser grips. You can but new 642 with no lock.

My Model 60 Ladysmith originally bought for my daugter:

I personally would not dismiss the .380 out of hand. Lots of good options in that round. Very viable option, IMO, with the proper round. My wife actually carries a S&W 432 Airweight in .32H&R Mag. I wouldnt want to take one of those rounds.

Bottom line, keep all options open and let HER decide. She will be more apt to carry a gun she can control and is happy with rather than one you believe she should carry.

I am preparing to do the same thing with my 20 yr. old daughter who told me when she reaches her 21st birthday (Aug. 1st), she wanted to apply for her CHL. You will find that a K-frame is a larger revolver than a J-frame, and is heavier, but easier to shoot. The trigger pull (flat mainspring vs coiled mainspring) of a K-frame is smoother and feels lighter than that of a J-frame to many shooters. My daughter and wife both prefer the trigger pull on the Centennial designed J-frames (432 PD, Model 642, etc.) vs the exposed hammer design (Model 60) or concealed hammer design of the Bodyguard series (Model 38, 638, 49).

Good luck,

Dave

One thing you have to make her realize is that size=comfort when firing a weapon. My wife had a Bodyguard 380/laser, until she fired it for the first time. I had tried to explain it to her when she bought it, but it took a women's only gun class at the range to show her. So now we are shopping for something more comfortable to shoot that isn't too big to carry.

My wife won a Lady Smith at a local sports banquet. I liked it so much that I appropriated it for my hunting back up gun. I had it Magnaported, and it is very controllable and easy to shoot with Pachmayer grips, even with 180 gr. .357 Magnum loads. I actually killed a deer with it after I blew my first shot with a Contender.

There's nothing wrong with a Kimber Micro .380 or SIG 238. Fill it with HST and all is well.

Am I the only one that's uncomfortable with the tone of this thread?

If your daughter isn't interested in carrying, then stop pushing her. The idea of her being pressured into carrying a deadly weapon that she may not be comfortable using isn't just silly—it's dangerous. You and your son-in-law may have the best of intentions, but trying to convince her (whether it's through scary "what if" scenarios, or statistics, or whatever) isn't going to be persuasive; it's simply going to push her into something that may make her incredibly uncomfortable.

And the idea that women will somehow become interested in guns because they can be accessorized is patently sexist. Let's give the fairer gender a bit more credit than that, OK?

My wife has no interest in firearms. She comes to the range occasionally and trains with me because she knows that it's a good skill to have (her words, not mine), but there's not a hope that I'd pressure her into it. If she organically develops the interest, then great. If not, then the best thing I can do is respect her decision.

Mike

As CSMALLOW pointed out above, the laws of physics apply, no matter how enticing a gun may appear, or how persuasive a sales pitch may be, the smaller and lighter and more appealing a gun is, the harder it will recoil with any effective cartridge. I have a large and varied collection of handguns, and my girlfriend tried any and all of those that she found appealing, and even some that I suggested. She actually shot them as well. After the dust cleared, she chose, with no prompting from me, the Smith and Wesson Model 10 2" with the round butt .38 Special, with 158 grain +P "FBI" loads. Sure, it is not a micro handgun. Doesn't look high tech. A little on the heavy side. But she feels confident with it. Practice ammo is cheap, I reload anyway. She can control the recoil. Remember, for any given cartridge, the heavier the gun, the less felt recoil, which is not just a comfort thing, it means that you are back on target quicker for a follow-up shot should you need one or more. I've been teaching men and women to shoot for more than 40 years, and the basics and the laws of physics don't change. New products come out, new ammo selections, the latest wonder bullet, etc., etc. But... Some things, like the fundamentals of good defensive shooting stay the same. We should adapt technology to our needs, not try to adapt ourselves to technology.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

As far as personal defense is concerned you said she had a shotgun for the house and IMHO there is no better defense than the intentional loud racking of a 12 ga pump shotgun. It is internationally recognized and sends and instantaneous message that things are about to get serious and aim won't really matter!

My wife likes my Bersa Thunder .380 as much as I do. Great for carry and fun to shoot. She carries her S/A EMP 9mm, it's really nice. I'm considering an EMP 4 for myself if they ever make it to Kalifornia.

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101st Airborne

Whether you and your son-in-law like it or not, if she's not interested, she won't carry a gun. Likewise if it's too heavy or bulky (have you seen the pockets in women's pants? Even a single 158 grain bullet might not fit). You can find a gun that the two of you guys think is perfect, but if she doesn't like it, she won't carry it.

You have to let her pick it out – or decline to carry without argument. If she's not ready and willing to take on the responsibility of carrying a gun, then she's better of going unarmed (and there are other personal defense options you can explore). If she feels like it's something she has to do just to please you, she'll just resent it... and not carry it or only carry it when she thinks you'll be paying attention. You see where this is going?

Any caliber she happily chooses to carry is better than none. Even one of the "mouse gun" calibers. Personally, I think a little Kahr P380 would be an excellent choice for a young adult or small woman. It's small and light, simple to use (no safety to fumble with or forget) and has a super-slick revolver-style trigger. And it will have plenty of snappy recoil with proper "+p" defensive ammo from the likes of Underwood Ammo or Buffalo Bore. Modern 380 ammo is far superior to the old stuff. But that's just me projecting my opinion on someone else.

Even a little pocket-sized thing of pepper spray is much better than nothing... if she makes of a point of always carrying it on her person. But if she doesn't agree that it's sensible, she won't even carry that. It may take a while for her to come around. Or she may never warm up to the idea. Be prepared for that and accept it if that's the case.

My wife prefers a Glock 19 and hates the snubnoses that i love.... it's really up to the shooter

My wife ignored the benefits of concealed carry for years. To her it just wasn't necessary. Well times have changed, and she is now of the mindset that protection is a necessary element of daily life in America today. It is somewhat sad that she has come to that reality, but, well. it is our day and age. I tried many handguns with her at the range. The small .380's (LCP, etc.) failed miserably. All 1911's were beyond her due to size. My model 49's with .38 Spl. just too much recoil. She although loved my K22. Of course a K22 doesn't make for a good concealed weapon. Upon quizzing many times, the 'reason' was recoil and controlling the handgun. So, off for some rentals. She is very effective with a .22 LR handgun, either semi auto or revolver. Her choice: Walther PPKS in .22 LR. No argument here. Got her one and she does well with it. I would not want to be her target, believe me. I, by the same token, feel she is protecting herself. Not to the degree that I choose to (1911, 3914, or Mod. 49), but she was the driving force in the decision to carry as well as what to carry. She has come a long way on her own with only encouragement from me. Had I forced the topic with her I suspect we would be nowhere on that issue today. I suspect that this summer she will graduate to a more substantial caliber, but that will be her decision and I will encourage her the whole way.

My daughter - a tiny thing - shoots 1911's (regardless of caliber) well. Enjoys the Model 15 at her disposal but is flatly IN LOVE WITH the Glock 19 I got her. Ultimately it's personal choice - and it might take some time to actually find the "best" fit.

A lot of ranges have a selection of guns you rent to try. Perhaps you should take your daughter to one and let her try holding different ones to see what fits her best. It's not very often that the your favorite gun will be the same for someone else. Or that they will like one you like for that matter. After she narrows her choice down to a few, then rent them and let her try shooting them. Renting isn't always real cheap, especially if you are trying 3 or 4 guns, because most places charge by the gun. But it is still cheaper than buying a gun she doesn't like.

Don't get hung up on caliber. She is protecting herself from people, not elephants. A lowly .22 rim fire in the hands of someone who has practiced with it is far more deadly than a .45 in the hands of someone who won't practice with it because they are afraid of it. Which brings me to my last point: if she isn't interested or willing to practice with whatever gun she ends up with, she might be better off getting a stun gun or mace/pepper spray.

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

Couldn't agree more. She'll never be comfortable if it's not her decision. Took me a few years to realize this with my wife. But...
One day after an incident at work she came home and said "I want my CWP!" Floored me! For pistol choice it was easy though. My wife has been shooting for years on and off and has owned a stainless Taurus 85 (J frame copy) for most of those years. She's very good with it and knew she wanted a revolver for its simple manual of arms. The stainless Taurus was just to heavy for CC. We looked at a bunch of pistols and she decided on a Ruger LCR. We're both happy.

My wife doesn't carry but has her own guns. She wanted a ladysmith and now has one. The 642 model and I put purple hogue tamers on it. Her favorite color and it's much more comfortable to shoot. As far as trigger hers is much better than my 442. It's now enjoyable for her and being comfortable with guns is what is all about for shooting or carrying.

I have had a CCW license for 5 years now. I live in South Florida and dress in shorts and polo style shirts. My carry weapon is a S&W BG 380 because it is the biggest gun I can successfully conceal. I have been brought up with guns having received my first.22 rifle at age 10 from my father. I was determined to introduce my two daughters to firearms at a relatively early age and did. My wife grew up on a farm in NW Missouri and there was always a 12 Ga. by the front door and plenty of venison in deer season. I signed all four of us up for an NRA Pistol course to qualify us for training under the CCW requirements in Florida and paid the instructor extra for additional range time so that my wife and daughters could sample not only the course's Buckmark, but my S&W 67, 6946 and Glock 26. My daughters fell in love with the Model 67 immediately and had little use for the semi autos. My wife, who I bought the Glock 26 for, hated it after one magazine. It became my gun. The 2 daughters still fight over the 67 and its recent sibling 66. My oldest (26) has the desire to get a CCW license but is not dedicated enough to put the time in on a J frame to become proficient. You can't hide a 4" barreled 67 in Florida. She says she loves roll guns and a J frame is as close to a 4" 67 as she will be able to hide. She hates semi autos.When asked to go to the range to practice her answer is "I'm Busy". OK.My youngest (22) seems to have no interest in CCW but loves blasting clay pigeons with the Remington 1100 and annihilating targets with my scoped Ruger mini 30. My wife is a government attorney and several attorneys in her office have state permission to carry concealed. She however does not have the desire to carry or the discipline to practice enough to be safe and proficient. My advice is to let them choose whether to carry or not and do not choose a gun for them. Let them try several at a local range. If a shotgun is what they like, be content with that and do not force them into something that they do not like. They will come around to concealed carry or they won't and pressuring the decision won't help.

I would try a 351C. It's not a 9mm but she'll shoot it without fear until she's ready to move up. IMHO- Don't even let her shoot that 360PD.

Ladysmith = 'marketing ploy'.

It is a nice J frame with fancy wood grips, special finish, and higher price tag.

The moniker Ladysmith/Lady Smith has been around since 1902. In its various iterations, the differences between equivalent standard models are mostly cosmetic and really don't do much to enhance function, adding only cost (though my Lady Smith Model 65 is one heck of a shooter). In most cases, though, the cosmetic changes are indeed attractive; for example, I prefer the lines of the Lady Smith 3913 frame/dustcover compared to the standard model. It's much like the differences between a man's razor and a women's razor: one is black and chrome, the other pink and pleasant. They both shave hair just fine.

The bigger issue, however, is that it doesn't seem as though your daughter is very interested in actually carrying a gun for self protection. Let's face it, carrying a gun every single day can be a pain in the patootie (sometimes literally). It's a huge commitment and is not a decision to be taken lightly. Women's fashions greatly compound the issue, and off-body carry is sub-optimal to say the least. She may change her mind...or not. But it is her decision. If she comes around, great. If not, that's fine too. There is much more to personal protection than the gun. See if she might enroll in an assertive communication class. Those types of classes are often available as continuing/adult education classes at local community colleges or in small groups led by therapists. Something like this will also benefit her career and everyday life. Teach her how to think strategically and how to be engaged in her surroundings. These things will help keep her safer and will also help her succeed in life. Helping her in these ways will do much more for her than forcing her to carry a gun when she doesn't care to.

Guys, and I say "guys" b/c most of you who are responding are guys. I have been through the selection process with my wife, and at least a dozen other females who have come to me through the recommendation of previous females I have helped choose a CCW.
Here is a BIG issue for females, and it is touched on only once in this string - how will they carry? The 'concealment' part of CCW is more of an issue for women. Many may want to carry, but simply will not dress for the gun - period. No compromise. They are not changing their wardrobe. Here is a big part of it, they do not want to tell you that. I think as men it is easier for us to adjust our wardrobe, and 'dress for the gun'. Many of them end up with the gun in their purse, if they carry a purse. Have you felt the weight of your wife's or girlfriend's purse lately? Now add a loaded Glock 19 to it or even a steel j-frame to that bag. Most of you would not be willing to tote that around on a daily basis. There are issues with purse carry that we as men do not think about. Like you cannot set the purse down and leave it anywhere with a gun in it - period. It is a lot to think about for a new CCW holder, who may be a mom and managing two or three kids, and having to mind where her purse is at the same time. Add to this that they are not sure about carrying in the first place, and it gets too hard quickly.
Getting them to carry in a holster is not easy if they dress like girly-girls. It is simply hard to hide a handgun of any size, at least without a little creativity and thought going into it. And they simple may not be aware of choices that are available for CCW carry, so they will end up not carrying the gun. So help them think through that. They may not know that they can have an ankle rig. Is that a great first option, no, you may hate it, but it is not for you, and it beats them not having a gun at all.
It took me nearly 12 years to get my wife to carry a gun regularly. She likes to shoot. She is great shot. She is a strong 2A proponent. I have no doubt she is willing to shoot you if you threaten her, but it was a decision she had to come to. And she had to pick the firearm.
She has tried several different handguns, revolvers and semiautos over the years. It cost me money, but guess what, it cost me money and drawer full of holsters and belts to be happy with the way I now carry.
Ultimately she has ended up with a Glock 42 with a crimson trace on it. As much as I want her to wear a holster - for get it. It is in her purse, and there it will stay - her decision. As a women in her 50s, who is trying to do everything she can to save her girlish figure, adding to her waistline with the bulk of a handgun, and having to wear a cover garment, well, that was NEVER going to happen. We as men just do not think about this stuff - generally.
I think 'the handgun' is a big decision, but the 'concept and practice' of CCW as a whole is something that requires more thought for the female who wants to carry, or who YOU want to carry. I completely understand why you want your wife-daughter-girlfriend to carry, it is a dangerous world and bad things happen to good people, but it is her decision not yours, and we may not think enough like a woman to help her get where she needs to go. Try a slightly different approach, and ask the '5 why' kind of questions, and you might help her get to a place where she will be willing to carry.
Bob

There are low recoil rounds out now that really work. In a 38, 4 inch revolver on single action. Should be like firing a sling shot.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

This is an adult female. She'll make her own decision in any case.

That's just reality. She might find a gun she enjoys shooting, but there's no guarantee she'd carry it.

In your situation, and especially in your son-in-law's position, I'd ease up on the gas a bit.

But then I didn't see "E.T." till it had been out for twenty years because so many people (one of whom saw it in the theater seventeen times
) told me I was un-American if I didn't.

As Lyndon Johnson used to say, "I don't push worth a damn."

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Oh well, what the hell.

My wife and my daughter shot and carry the 642. My 78 year old mother-in-law likes the 442 with the lasermax grip. They all love the way the revolvers handle, easy to shoot, safe to carry. They all carry in their purse, in a purse carry pouch made for that.At the range we practice different ways to draw from the purse. As with anyone a person must enjoy their range time as they get proficient at handling and shooting the handgun of their choice. I brewed up a very nice low velocity round (158gr RN atop 3.6gr. Unique) and keep plenty on hand.The point is empower them to make their own choices. Help them enjoy the experience.
And never forget; Shoot,Shoot, Shoot and then Shoot some more. We must all become at least proficient.

When the wife decided she wanted her CWP we talked about how she was going to carry. From the get go she wanted a CC purse. I didn't argue. It may not be ideal, but she has a gun with her. At 5' 3" and maybe 125 pounds she has problems concealing a nail clipper. She realizes the short comings of purse carry and knows her brain is her ultimate weapon. She's a tough N.Y. city girl.
As a side note, funny how the smallest person in the house has the most authority...

This thread had its genesis as the result of my daughter being at home with my two year-old granddaughter one night, and hearing sounds in the house, the dog barking angrily and persistently, and son-in-law at work. She called me, very spooked, as she and granddaughter (who was sleeping) were "hiding in place" upstairs, not wanting to investigate.

I hurried over (it's eight miles) with flashlight, pistol and a lot of caution, and cleared the house, the back and front yards, and then, after my son-in-law had returned, debriefed.

Having a shotgun did her absolutely no good. For starters, she didn't remember where she'd put her ammunition. For another, had she actually been in a position to use it, there's a good chance she could have peppered my granddaughter's room in the process. In other words, her position wasn't really defensible.

Since then, we've discussed the virtues of having a handgun over just a shotgun. I know that the decision is hers, as is the choice of weapon. I'm only interested in learning what's available, since her exposure to my shooting collection hasn't resulted in a "winner."

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Eschew Obfuscation.

My ladyfriend's first handgun was a 642CT. It was a good choice for a beginner, as it's pretty versatile, and I wasn't sure how interested she'd be in shooting. Her daughters had moved out, and she felt better being armed.

Fast forward a few years- she really enjoys shooting. She owns an AR (her favorite), and her HD gun is a Glock 19. It works for her, and she shoots it well.

However, she chooses not to carry a CCW. Her choice, and I don't push it. I would prefer she did, but it's something she's not comfortable with, and I respect that.

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Because of the metric system?

I love the Ladysmiths.
Honestly keep buying guns for your wife/daughter/girlfriend. Subconciously youre only buying more guns for yourself in the end
If you can figure out what your wife/daughter/girlfriend want then I have some questions to ask you about everything.

Politely, the above isn't an argument for a handgun, it's an argument for hardening access to the house and using 911; she was in no way prepared for the use of any firearm for self protection irrespective of gun type.

A better first step might be to give her a copy of Ayoob's Deadly Force or the NRA's Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection in the Home, suggest she read it and decide if armed home protection is something she feels capable of learning and implementing.

If she does, odds are she'll find a suitable firearm pretty quickly thereafter because it has less to do with the "right" gun and more to do with the right frame of mind.

hap is correct but i point out that a woman who won't shoot to protect herself will probably shoot to protect her child.

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susie