I know the J-frames in .357 have been all the rage for discreet carry recently. But have you fired one? And did you like the vicious recoil? How fast can you get off an accurate followup shot?

I believe that more weight is needed, coupled with acceptable size for concealment.

My personal choice is this Model 66-2, made in November 1983. While I also have a pinned and recessed Model 66-1, I don't use it much because of its collector value. This one is for serious business. Nelson Ford gave it a premium action job, and I went to work with Mother's Mag Polish to give it a glistening shine. It will definitely be noticed when and if drawn. My favorite Ahrends concealment stocks went on it - I find that they fill the hand and don't print at all when properly holstered and covered with a tail-out shirt. This one can be fired comfortably and repeat shots can be both quick and accurate.

The .357 has been shown time and time again to be a superior self-defense round - and I think this particular gun is the best compromise among the factors of accuracy, recoil management, concealability and handiness.

I also like the fact that it doesn't mess up the environment with ejected cases!

Your mileage may differ...???

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

If you have to defend yourself with a semi-auto, the police will be happy to pick up your empty cases ; )

I'll second your nomination. My EDC when I am not toting my duty gun is a 2" 66-4. I also have a 66-2 that is a "safe queen", but will see some carry in the event it is needed.

I'm with you PALADIN85020. I think they have reached the point of too
light in small revolvers. Besides the punishing recoil we have the danger
of an occasional crimp jump and the titanium cylinders are susceptible
to erosion from the too hot gasses.
I prefer Model 60 .357 and Ruger SP101 .357. A little heavier but better
for the reasons you said.
I also prefer the concealed hammer. In the case of my Model 60 I had
the hammer bobbed.

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In Omnia Paratus

My expert LEO armorer/SWAT friend tells me that the 357, although an excellent round does not achieve its full velocity with a short barrel, and we might be better with modern ballistics with a Model 940. I do not pretend to know firsthand; still, I suspect a 357 near miss even would still unnerve a rational assailant no matter what barrel it came out of and a hit would end the encounter. Very nice looking firearm, thank you for posting.

I purchased a 640 Pro but have not qualified with it to work it into carry status, as of yet. I now have the holster lined up and the next time the rangemaster holds a qual. it and I will be there.

I have tried the Gold Dot Short Barrel .357 in her and I didn't notice that the recoil was bad. I couldn't imagine putting any full house loads through it though.

I have owned a 2 inch 66 for a number of years.
Have shot A wide range of factory and hand loads in this 66, usually with the heavier bullets.
It does have some recoil and tends to torque.
Recently I traded for a 649.
It recoils quite a bit when shooting 357s.
This recoil don't really bother me that much, but I believe that for a defense weapon you should be deliver fast on target follow up shots.
Right this minute my 2 inch 66 and my 649 are loaded with 38+ P.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I have a LCR357 and a SP101. Full house 357 is more than I can take at 65 years old. You young strong guys may be ok with it. In something with the weight of the SP101 I could take some self defense loads because they were midrange. I stick with 135 gr. Speer Gold Dot 38+P. NYPD likes them so that's good enough for me. That being said, I carry J-Frames these days. Today it's Two 442s

Attached Images

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Two Handguns every day

The ruger security six or police service six with a 2 3/4" barrel is probably as small as I'd go in 357 mag. She can shoot and has shot full magnum loads since 1976. I'm not fond of shorter barrels but for the 90 degree weather.

To answer your questions. Yes, Hated it, and could not. Even shooting HOT 38 special ammo in my M 640-1 can be a challenge after 10 or so rounds.

I'm lucky enough to have three 2 1/2" K frames. M 19-3 blued, M 19-4 nickel finish, and a M 66-1. As the nickel finished gun has some small challenges, it's the one I carry the most, and feel well armed with it.

I believe the round butt K frames are the ideal discrete carry revolvers. Small and light enough to conceal, but feel like a real gun in my hand.

I carry a 66-3 2 1/2 in barrel in an S&W 21-32 holster. Rear sight blade scuffs my inner arm below the elbow at times. A 65 with gutter sights would help with the scuff problem and might let my eyes acclimate the target better in a quick draw and shoot situation. Something to think about if the S&W addiction dictates what you carry.

I carry a 686 Plus 2.5" OWB, when appropriate. For discrete, deep cover, a 640 2-1/8".

640-1, before the lock and MIM parts. Only made for one year (1996).

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ken
SWCA #1959

In a full house 357 Magnum 686+ 3"in a pancake holster. Anything smaller is a 38 spec only.

I love my 340 PD because the light weight makes it very easy to carry and conceal in a Mika pocket holster. Does it hurt like hell to shoot? Yes. Do I practice a lot with it? Yes. Am I ever without it? No.




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Pass it on.
Mark

John,

I myself have come to the conclusion carry the biggest gun you can carry, however recoil is recoil and there isn't much you can do about it. Sometimes you just have to wait to the muzzle comes down again.

Having said that I still want to have fun with my gun at the range, in order to get comfortable with a .357 magnum you need gun 40 oz or better. I myself draw the line at under 2 lbs and loaded just over.

My new Governor will put down anything I need it to in my neck of the woods.
And it's like shooting rubber bands across the room for me.

And yet when I own a Ruger LCR .38 special at 13.5 oz. it was pure brutality. Yet my 642 at only 1.5 oz heavier felt good.
But .45's are unlike any other round in which they don't recoil in so much the same manner. My 642 was good for about 80 rounds a secession but I can go over 200 rounds with a .45.
Go figure.

I want nothing to do whatsoever with any magnum or + P loads.

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Mulebuk Sam and the Governor

The all steel M640-1 is a doable little .357 "discreet carry" package. Find one with a 3-inch barrel, and the proper stocks, and it will help tame the not inconsiderable recoil.

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~ S&W aficionado in training ~

I carry a M640-3 with a set of Pachs 3 finger grip that takes care of the Hormany Self Defense 125gr. .357 factory loads.
I also go to the range with the same rounds I carry. No problem. The larger grip and a ClipDraw with a tee-shirt no print either.

I carried a Model 66 with 2.5 inch barrel, bobbed hammer, Tyler grip adapter and dished trigger guard as my personal sidearm for years. Even competed with it for awhile. It got a lot of attention when unholstered at the range. My son now carries it and I carry a S&W 325. Hard to beat a 66.

Nothing better than a J frame 640-1. This one is before the confounded cast (MIM) hammer & triggers, and before the Kwikset key lock in the side:

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ken
SWCA #1959

I think the 'j' frames are just right for .38 +P. If I had a 'j' frame .357 I wouldn't use full power loads. I concocted some low end .357s in my 686 HD gun that are better than any +Ps.

Even in the all steel mod 36 I find the most powerful +Ps to be rough on my hands. I'm not concerned about recoil in a defense situation, but practice.....yowie.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The best 357 for carry for me is the only one I carry my 66-4 3". My 686 no dash 6" is not as concealable.

I have a hammer bobbed DAO Model 13-3 4". I'm tall and fat so concealing it really isn't very difficult.

I like the J frames. 340M&P, 60-15 Pro-series, 640-1 Pro, haven't shot the 640 pro yet but it feels great in my hands. And the other two shoot pretty good if your not shooting real hot .357's. I have to research a holster for it. maybe a cross draw would work good for driving

I looked up masochism in the dictionary. There was a picture of a guy shooting a .357 Magnum J-frame.

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Oh well, what the hell.

22 oz 649 is good for me and deep concealment. Yeah regular .357s are rough, but +Ps feels like range ammo - I got to find some Speer .357 Short Barrel Ammo to try out, which I hear is a nice in-between round.

I carry a 340 PD with 125 gr JHP. I don't worry about the recoil. All I am concerned with is that I hit the threat and that he stops. I generally shoot about 10 to 20 rounds at each range session. It is my back up when I am in uniform.

I posted a likeness to this on another thread, but it fits here as well.

I pulled out all my .38 and .357 this evening and went pie plate hunting with my 640-1 Pro. This is the first time I've run everything in the safe through the 640. I stapled the plates to a board, nailed the board to a tree about chest high, set my bench +/- 25' away, and went through--two handed--in this order.

Remington .38, 130gr, metal clad -- what a nice round to shoot, my best group in the middle of the plate (point of aim)

Speer .38 +P, 135gr SBHP -- first one was low and away (me, I'm sure), the rest were center and a bit low

Speer Lawman .38 +P, 158gr TMJ -- second best group, center low

Remington Golden Saber .357, 125gr, Brass JHP -- nicest of the magnum rounds to shoot and a nice group a bit low

Barnes TAC-XPD .357, 125gr, TAC-XP HP, lead-free -- first one got away low, then 4 on the plate but very low, slightly left (after shooting the rest of the types I went back to this one, raised the nose slightly and put three groups of 5 pretty rapid fire near the center of the plate -- absolutely no problem with recovery time)

Federal .357, 158gr Hydra-Shok JHP -- low, center (I shot two more groups of 5 with similar results)

Winchester .357, 158gr, JHP -- same as the Federal

I got my 640 earlier this month. I put Karl Nills stocks on it (stolen from my M&P 340), and they make it feel like a K-frame. No problems with recoil or "the next shot" with any of this ammo.

I've had 19 and 66 2½" guns, and I like this 640 Pro better.

Attached Images

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

2.5" 19/66 or 3" 65/13

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K & N S&W revolvers

Excuse me a second, while I head off the reservation again ...

I know OP didn't start out talking about carry and SD, but the thread drifted that way.

If a person wants .357 Mag performance in a more manageable form, the .357 Sig was designed expressly for that purpose.

One example is the Glock 33. To me the recoil is more manageable than my model 38 with 38 SPL rounds because the recoil comes straight back and gets absorbed into the slide movement. The model 38, however much I love it, is much harder on the wrists because all the recoil is rotating the firearm up and back.

The model 38 weighs in at 15 oz empty, the Glock 33 is 22 oz.

I know, I've committed about 6 kinds of heresy here. But consider the difference 9 or 10 rounds of genuine 357 mag performance makes when the excrement hits the fan.

For a carry .357 I started with a 2 1/2 inch 19 moved to a 66 when I could get one...... transitioned to a 3 inch 65 ( which I had magna-ported) in about 1986/7 and then to a 3 inch 66-3 in 88/89.......

So either a 3 inch 65 ( non-ported) or 66 is my preference.... for the longer extractor rod. Though I do have 2 1/2 inch 19-4/66-?s in the safe.

I've been carry them all in either a Bianchi Pistol Pocket and later Milt Sparks Summer Special since the beginning....... so the extra 1/2 inch of barrel makes no noticeable difference in concealed carry.

My only .357 J-frame is a 3 inch 60-10 my "Kit Gun" ... think micro-686 which is rarely stoked with magnums..... mostly +P38s.

I have posted this before, but it is still true. I am a licensed civilian. Sold my J Frame .357 and I have been carrying a 66-4 2.5" every day for the last 4 years. Plus a speedloader in my front pocket. The 158 grain Remington SJHP ammo is old school, but still works very good. The clipdraw makes it as easy to slip over the waste band of my trousers as putting a wallet in my back pocket. To finish it off, I wear a light pullover shirt or sweater outside the waistband.

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A few thoughts...

1. It's true that the .357 Magnum isn't very efficient in a 2 1/8" to 2.5" barrel. But...

That's aggravated by a tendency to load the .357 magnum with large changes of slow burning powder - loads that produce maximum velocity in long barrel revolvers.

Those large 20 or so grain loads also aggravate the problem with recoil, as while the bullet velocity will be disappointing, the extra 10-11 grains of powder retains it's mass in gaseous form and that gas leaving the muzzle at 2-3 times the muzzle velocity of the bullet has the effect of increasing the recoil about the same as shooting a bullet that is about 25-30 grains heavier.

The popular gun rag and internet wisdom is that those slow burning powders produce the most velocity even in a short barrel. However, I've been chronographing my hand loads for over 20 years and I found early on that a maximum load of a medium burning powder like Unique will produce more velocity in a 2" to 3" barrel than a slower burning powder.

None the less, no one believes that when you point it out to them as they've heard the slow powder BS so long it's become an inviolate fact. Sadly, we've become a society of people who prefer authoritarianism rather than actual experience and experimental data.

Personally, my preferred .357 self defense load is a 125 gr XTP on top of 8.5 or 9.0 grains of Unique. The Hornady second edition had a max of 9.4 grains but that edition is known for fairly warm data and cases start to stick at 8.5 to 9.0 gr depending the the revolver, and I prefer the cases drop free cleanly, in a self defense revolver, particularly if it's 2.125" S&W due to the short ejector rod.

In a 3" revolver I get an average velocity of 1,296 fps with 9.0 grains and 1,243 fps with 8.5 grains. That compares with a velocity of 1,150 fps with a max charge of Win 296.

For short 1 7/8 to 2 1/8" Model 36s and 60s I prefer a +P load of 7.5 gr of 800x under the same 125 gr bullet. It gives an average velocity of 929 fps in my 1 7/8" Model 36, 951 fps in my 2 1/8" Model 60 and 1,030 fps in my 3" Model 60.

In that regard, the 8.5 grs of Unique gives me another 213 fps of velocity over a .38 +P load in the same revolver.

2. Grips, a steel frame and a 3" barrel all help tame .357 Mag recoil in a snub nose.

I've found that a set of Hogue Monoblock grips makes a Model 60 with the above mentioned .357 Mag (125 gr at 1250-1300 fps) very tolerable when shot in a steel frame Model 60. The extra weight of a 3" barrel helps.

Extra weight helps as well. The extra 5 oz in a 3" SP101 or the extra 7 oz in a 3" Model 13 or a 2 3/4" Speed Six is very noticeable on the range, particularly if you're shooting 100 or so rounds.

The extra 7/8" of barrel isn't noticeable at all in IWB carry, but it does make the .357 Mag much more effective.

I do notice the extra weight of the 3" SP101 compared to the 3": Model 60, when carrying it, but to be fair it's not offensively heavy and that extra weight also makes it much more effective to shoot.

That said, unless I'm carrying the revolver under a tucked shirt, my preference is to carry a 3" Model 13 as it's a great revolver to shoot, it offers six rounds rather than five, and it's still readily concealable and comfortable to carry in a good IWB holster with a well made belt.

But on days when I need a smaller profile revolver the J-frame works just fine.

3. A J-frame is a bit of an "experts" gun that rewards good training and ample practice.

My primary hesitation regarding carrying a J-Magnum revolver with .357 Mag loads is that the J-Magnum frame .357s are not really made for a steady diet of .357 Magnum.

Consequently, practicing enough to be truly effective with it is problematic without wearing the revolver out very quickly. I tend to split the difference and practice with the heavier constructed SP101 and then carry the Model 60 when I need a smaller revolver. The two are close enough that the SP101 practice generalizes nicely to the Model 60.

That's funny!


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Pass it on.
Mark

When I first got my carry permit many years ago the first carry gun I bought was a 640-1 when S&W first started making the J-magnums. I believed at the time it was an excellent combination of size/weight/power. (Still do, actually.). I practiced mostly with .38's but always a couple cylinders of magnums also. I carried magnums in it. My brother in law if I recall correctly shot less than a full cylinder of magnums. My father shot a couple cylinders of .38's, didn't like it and never pulled the trigger on a magnum round. I used to giggle touching-off magnums due to the feeling of sheer power in such a small package. Yes it hurt. It was a good hurt, the way a roller coaster is a good scary.

At some point I decided I wanted or needed an auto for carry and at the time, due to finances, the 640 had to go to afford something new. Based on where I am in my "collection" I don't know that I'd buy a new one today but it's still at or near the top of my list of guns I've sold/traded that I wish I still had.

Side note: the "J-Magnums" are slightly larger and obviously heavier than, for example, a 642/637, etc. Fine for dropping into a pocket for a quick trip to the store but, for me, a little much for "all-day" pocket carry.

BB57 -- thanks for that thorough post.

I'm not a reloader, but posts like yours and a couple of penny-wise friends are making it more likely that I'll see the light soon.

For now, can you translate your "... preferred .357 self defense load... a 125 gr XTP on top of 8.5 or 9.0 grains of Unique." into comparable off-the-shelf ammo?

Thanks,

Bob

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

Sorry, I can't recommend anything specific. Ideally, you'll want something that is intended for use in a short 2-3" barrel.

Unfortunately, what you'll usually find are low recoil loads designed for small revolvers, and that's not the same thing.

Thank you.

My reloader pals don't pay attention to factory stuff, but I thought maybe....

The Barnes TAC-XPD .357, 125gr, TAC-XP HP, lead-free I tried out yesterday might live in the right neighborhood. Barnes claims 1,200 fps from a 2". It punches above its weight, for sure but nothing embarrassing, and my grips do a great job of mitigating any sting.

Thanks again,

Bob

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

Agreed. The 2.5 inch pre lock 66 is everything you need in a revolver and nothing you dont.

If it didn't exist, the pre lock pre MIM 640-1 is a nice 2nd choice. As is the Ruger SP101. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I have carried either Cor-Bon 125 gr .357 (previously) or Barnes Vor-Tx 140 gr .357 (now) in my Model 60 since I bought it in 1997. My mix of target ammo has been 90% .357/ 10% .38. I have never had an issue with the revolver and the recoil, to me, has never been "vicious", "unmanageable" or anything else but a little stout. I do understand that each individual has their own sensitivity to recoil, but I have found that, with practice, one gets inured to even heavy recoil. Yes, if I haven't shot my 60 in awhile, the first couple of rounds seem a bit strong, but usually, by the first cylinder or two, it's like shaking hands with an old friend.

Of course, your mileage may vary! Good luck with whatever you decide!

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Get off my lawn!

Find a friend with a fish tank.
Ask if you can snip off 2 inch of the tubing used for air from pump into tank. ( clear plastic treated with uv inhibiter)
Heat with hair dryer. Streach over hammer and snip off. Bevel end with sharp knife.
Now hammer will not knaw on jacket\shirt. Heat and streach over rear sight, trimming as needed. Gat is now defaced except for the pointy end. Sight still use able for combat as plastic is see through. Old Texas panhandle gunfighter trick from the 70's. K frames were eating holes in our polyester leisure suits jackets.
Your milage may vary.

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Sometimes I carry a 60-14 2" with CT grips in a IWB holster. Recoil has never been a concern for me. I train with .38 SPL, shoot some carry ammo occasionally, and carry with Winchester .357 Mag 180 grain Black Talons (the originals). Unfortunately, my supply is beginning to run low . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I agree that the J frame is just ridiculous to shoot with Magnums.

My choice in this category? 3 inch 65 or 66.

Groo here
I have found that there is little difference shooting a 38 or 357 from a similar weight or size gun for most people as the action type
and sight setup and shooter experience/training have more effect
than the difference in kick.
How many of you see people adj their grip each shot ?[Slow]
How many take a sight picture each time they shoot?[also slow]
How many slowly pull the trigger?[slow again]
The things we do slow things down more then the difference in kick.
The three most important things are #1 a grip that fits the shooter
#2 good hearing protection.
#3 good trigger control.
Even the sights are not so important at 5 to 7 yds or shorter ranges!!!!

For a less violent mag load, I prefer the W-W and R-P 110gr Mag JHP loads in my snub .357s. Much more controllable than the 125 grain "planet wreckers." Of course, these rounds are "verboten" in the guns with titanium cylinders...

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I can fire the Rhino faster on target with full house loads than any other .357 I own. And it's lighter and pretty small. Before some wiseacre mentions his revelation that it's ugly, I'm not claiming it's pretty.



While I've used it for carry and no doubt will again, I don't generally need or want .357 Magnum power in a small carry revolver. (I use my 3" SP-101 most often for hikes up Bear Canyon behind the house.) The Rhino is presently doing house gun duty with minus-P .357 Magnum handloads that deliver 135-gr Speer short barrel 135-grain Gold Dots at c. 1130 fps.

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How God has blessed us!

My two favorites are the 60-15 Pro Series and a 66-2 because these are the two I own!

When Magnum force might be required my personal favorite CCW has been this 2.5" Model 66-1 (shown right)


Alternate take is the Model 65-5 LadySmith


Recently had a buddy offer me a 3" full underlug Pre IL Model 60-? in .357 and although it was very tempting kept thinking that 3" J Magnum wasnt much lighter or smaller than my 66-1 but more importantly only offered five shots VS the K Magnum's six.

For daily CCW the J Airweight in .38 special is hard to beat but for Magnum carry prefer a K frame.

I've gone to a 2.25" SP101 in a Mika for my EDC. The hammer has been shaved and I use Hogue Finger Groove Camo Lamo Grips on it. My current EDC load in the Barnes 125 Grain Tac-XP, practice is mostly hand loaded Mid-Range Cast .357's always followed with 10 rounds of Full Magnums. It is handful but can be mastered with some dedicated practice, I'm just too dang old and crippled up to chase brass or wear a belt gun for any duration anymore, so I've settled on Pocket Carry of a Magnum Revolver. I just dress for it and use a 1.75" 5 Stitch Instructor's Belt with Perry 3-Point Suspenders .....;o)

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Retired & Livin' my DREAM :)

I would not call it ugly but it is different that's for sure and of course I'm sure you know why you can shoot it faster, low bore axis.

Now, after seeing the amount of parts inside those guns I can understand now why they have had so many QC problems. They went way over board. They can barely give them away, selling for almost half of what they where a few years back.

And good luck with customer service.
Now for my taste the new Kimber .357 comng out would be as radical in depature as I'd care to go, I'm a traditionalist.

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Mulebuk Sam and the Governor