S&W 44 Magnums have traditionally been six shot N frames. Now we have the L frame Model 69 five shot.

Will the next step be a four shot K frame 44 Magnum? And then a three shot J frame 44 Magnum?

I don't think so.

Let's hope not.
Chuck

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SWCA1517 SWHF256
Rangers LTW!

Umm yeah - it will stop at the L frame.

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K & N S&W revolvers

Having shot 44 Mag from an N frame and 357s from a J frame, I can't imagine trying to shoot 44 Mag out of a J frame!

L frame is the end of the line. Unless we see some magical increase in the quality of steel available, the k frame will never be able to handle the .44 Magnum. Also, while a 4 shot may seem like a logical progression, a 3 shot, for a magnum chambered revolver, would be safer. Therefore, it's likely to never happen, and IMO that's a good thing.

Why? Is there someone out there who likes bruised,swollen,hurting hands?

A 4" Model 29 is unpleasant enough.

Just tape two 44mag derringers together.

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Hastings

Somebody may make one, and someone else will purchase one, but I ain't shootin' one.

The 69 hit the market in '14. So I waited a little while, but just had to have one. So it arrived. Loaded every load know to man in 44 special and 44 mag. last trip to the range was 3-4 weeks ago, still trying some different full house 44 magnum loads. I sat there and wondered why I was punishing my hand. Looked at the target, looked like all the rest, I have 12 gage shotguns that will shoot smaller groups that this thing. Glad to say she went away a few days ago and I have a bunch of Ben Franklin in my hand and the gun show is two weeks away. I was a nice fling, kind of like one with a wild red head, to hot to handle on a day to day bases and all over the map also, and it ended bad. Think I will stay with less flamboyant S&W's from now on. O, yes, love me some L frame 44 Specials. L frame 44 mags. no way. save you money.

My wrist hurts just thinking about it.

357s from my 640-1 bother me more than 44mag from a 4in m29!

You will see whatever it is that they think there is a market for. That drives all decisions about what will be manufactured. If there is a market, they will develop whatever technology is needed to manufacture it. Welcome to the free market economy!

Won't happen. No way no how. Measure a k frame cylinder and there is no way 4 44s will fit. 5 44s will fit in a L frame because none of them are directly across the center from each other. With a K frame take the cylinder OD of 1.446 then add 2 44 case rim together. .514x2=1.028 add a K frame ratchet of about .514 and you have 1.532. Even if you squeezed the rim in between the ratchets enough so the edge of the rim was at the edge of the cylinder the outside of the chamber wall would only be .029 thick and because of the even number of chambers the cylinder lock cuts would fall on the chamber or in this case in the chamber LOL. Then there is the matter of the barrel shank. K frame 357 are already thin at the forcing cone. No way with a 44. Go look at an L frame 696 or 396 44 special. They are thin in an L frame. Had to redesign the lock to go to 44 mag in mdl 69. Never design that kind a room into a K frame.

Keep on dreaming. But first buy a good set of calibers.

Yeah-they could name it "The Grenade."

Maybe since S&W owns TC, we could get them to build a single shot 4" in say .500 S&W, .458 Winchester Magnum, .500 Holland and Holland or maybe the M40 grenade shotgun round.......a REAL mans gun!

I am surprised at the level of pessimism and fear of recoil on this forum.

A seven shot X frame 44 Magnum would be dandy, too.

Just chiming in to say that I'd buy two if S&W made an L-frame .41 Magnum. I bet a lot of others would, too.

A J-frame 44 magnum? Would you then sue S&W for your broken wrist or the front sight embedded in your forehead?

It would be nice to see them bring a 5 shot 44 special to market.
A better made CA Bulldog ?
I would buy one.
Or two.
Right now the 69 I have is as light as I want to go in a 44 Mag thank you.

A K frame .44 Magnum would be an answer to a question no one has asked.

if they ever make either of them, and you buy one, let the mother-in-law shoot it first.

I would rather see a 5 shot K-frame .44 Special, myself. Problem being, these days if they made it there would be a lock on it.

It's called a "696" and they didn't sell when they were made. It sure is fun to shoot and my grand daughter loves mine!
jcelect

Agreed! However, after attending SHOT, I think there should be many unemployed market analysts.

I have 3 S&W 5 shot 44s a 396 which is a 3" barreled 44 special, a 696 which is a stainless 3" barreled 44 special and a model 69 which is a 4.25 barreled 44 mag.

Go buy 2. I like mine more than my CA Bulldogs

I wouldn't even want to imagine a k frame .44 spl.

I have 44 specials in S&W L frames, a Taurus 431 and a couple CA Bulldogs. The Bulldogs have the smallest cylinders and that is because CA uses a very small diameter ratchet. The smaller the ratchet the more difficult it is to get a smooth light trigger because the hand has less leverage to turn the cylinder. The CA cylinder is still larger than a K frame cylinder and just slightly smalller than one from an L frame

I remember seeing them but they were expensive.

A 4shot K frame or 3 shot J frame.......how many do you think they would sell?Let me take a wild guess here;not enough to pay for the tooling not even considering the R&D that went into it.Just my 2 cents!
Qc

Rhetorical and facetious non-question... A waste of forum time and space!!!

There was a gunsmithing shop in north-east Washington (called Spokandguns or something like that) that made 5 shot .44 Special conversions on S&W K frames with their own cylinders back in the 1975-85 era. A member here has one and posted photos. They were pricey.

My gunsmith and I spent a few hours measuring a couple Model 19s and trying to figure out how they made it fit. I wish we would have had at least photos of the rear of the cylinder assembly and the yoke of the conversion.

My guess is that such would not be a good choice for Elmer Keith loads.

Does anyone have an comprehensive list of dimensional specs on J, K, L, and N frame revolvers?

I would love to sit down with a cad program and put together a set of comparison drawings showing the largest diameter chambers each frame size's cylinder will allow in both 5 and 6 round, as well as the forcing cone and barrel thicknesses that these configurations result in.

I think this would be a fun little project, and a good graphic to have in a reference thread so that every time this question comes up the actual dimensional limitations of the frame sizes could be pointed to immediately and answer the question "could it be done".

Obviously just fitting the cartridges into the cylinder doesn't tell the whole story, but if they don't fit it would end the story before it went any further.

It would also be a good way to develop a new cartridge based on maximum diameter of cartridge possible in a given frame rather than which available cartridge is the largest that will fit.

I've always hoped that advances in manufacturing technology would eventually make it financially and mechanically practical for someone to offer a line of cartridges that share the same case length but come in .01" increments from .36 thru .45 or .50 diameter. Going with the stock 357mag case length as a standard length would allow the cartridges to be used in J-frames on up, as well as most Ruger revolvers. The broad range of diameters would allow for best cartridge to revolver fit in 5 and 6 round cylinders, and the most variety possible without developing new frame sizes. It's a pipe-dream, obviously, but nice to think about nevertheless.

I've also wondered about the possibility of taking an N-frame 357 and getting three or four cylinders fitted for it with each being a different wildcat cartridge pushing a 357 bullet. One cylinder 38/357mag, the next a necked down 41mag, then a necked down 45colt. I'm sure there are a host of wildcat cartridges that fill this range of cartridges, but if swapping out the cylinder and yoke gave you three or more options with proper bore diameter for bullet maintained (unlike say, 357 and 9mm) it might be fun working up loads for each cartridge. Rifling twist rate might limit upper end velocity potential if pressure didn't, but it would be a hoot to try given the time and money to play around with it.

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Hastings

Here is a site with a lot of Smith measurements.
Smith
On the barrel shanks for forcing cones you can figure and use the minor of the barrel threads. While it does not give the height of the frame windows, you couldn't gain much over stock cylinder diameters because there is only a small gap top and bottom, probably less than 0.05. Not at home right now, be there in the middle of next week and could measure anything you want, I, J, K. L, N or X frame.

Thanks, Steelslaver. That info is helpful.

I don't see the ratchet diameter in there, or the center of cylinder to center of chamber bores, but I could have overlooked it. Does anyone have those specs for J, K, L, and M frames?

Thanks
Hastings

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Hastings

No there but like I said I can get them when I get home. I am one of those guys with calipers laying all over the place.

This made my day. I cried.

Yep, my 629 Mountain Gun recoils enough. I can't imagine shooting something much lighter. The 329PD looks painful too.

Wow, perfect companion to my magnesium frame .44 Mag two shot derringer. It really likes those Buffalo Bore 340 grain polar bear slayers!

Here on some S&W dimensions with some not on the page I posted
Measured with digital calipers. May be off a .001 or so here and there. Did not spend all day at it. I do know that frames and cylinders vary a few thousands.

J frame using a 36-1 and a 640-1
window height 36-1 1.34 640-1 1.342
window length 36-1 1.631 640-1 1.736
cylinder OD 36-1 1.325 640-1 1.375
Radius chamber center from cylinder center. .42
ratchet OD .426 with a .012 dip for rims
Barrel shank at forcing cone .452

K frame 19-3
Window height 1.482 length 1.809
cylinder OD 1.455
chamber centers from cylinder center .456
ratchet OD .56 and dip of .043 for rims
barrel shank at FC .504 side to side small flat at btm

L frame 696 and 69
Window height 696 1.598 69 1.68
length 696 1.814 69 1.82
Center of cylinder to center of chamber .51
ratchet od .528 with .025 dip for rim
FC barrel od 696 .524 69 .601

N frame 57-1 and a model 25-5 cylinder
window height 1.736 length 1.88
cylinder od 1.7
center to chamber center .551
ratchet OD .56 with a .01 dip from rim on model 25-5 for rim clearance
Barrel shank at FC .626

Here are some other interesting numbers on cylinders

J frame 357 chamber walls .046 (offset cuts) between .095

K frame 357 outside .75 (-.040 lock cut), between chambers .70

L frame 44 mag outside wall .045 (offset lock cut) between .122

N frame 45 colt outside wall .0625 (-.034 lock cut) between .055

N frame 44 mag outside wall .076 (-.034 lock cut) between .079

If a guy could get a 5 shot 45 colt cylinder (or a blank) it would be possible to have a 5 shot N frame 45 colt with cylinder walls considerably thicker than those of a model 69 44 mag and have offset lock cuts and run real magnum pressures around 36,000 psi. I can dream, but my 45 colts running around 20,00 psi are really all I need. Just an observation from these dimensions.

One of the first, if not the first, cartridge firing revolvers Colt made was the 4 shot, 41 rimfire "house revolver" often referred to as the cloverleaf revolver or Jim Fisk gun. It is very collectable today since few were sold and it was replaced with a 5 shot model. Sales must have been pretty low since nobody I know of has made a 4 shot revolver in the 145 years since it went out of production.

If you look at pictures of it you can see why. Since the holes in a 4 shot cylinder are 180 degrees apart it is about the same width as a 5 shot cylinder would be. Pretty cool from as a non shooting collectors item but I would never own a 4 shot revolver as a shooter and all my guns are shooters.

Yes, a K framed 44 special!

Here are some more references
Taurus 431 a steel 5 shot 44 special
cylinder OD 1.504 (.026 more than K frame cylinder)
ratchet OD .418
outside of chamber wall .49
center of cylinder to center of chamber .456

Inside of hand to center lockup .14

Charter Arms Bulldog 44 spec

Cylinder OD 1.416
outside wall thickness .046
center of cylinder to center of chamber .43
ratchet OD .319
inside of hand to center of pin .12

The inside of a K frame hand is .182 from center

So Taurus has a slightly larger cylinder OD and the same chamber pattern as K frame, but there ratchet OD is slightly smaller than that on a J frame and .092 smaller than a K frame even if you count the dip a K frame has in ratchet for case rim. Even if you could fit a J frame ratchet to an K cylinder the hand would completely miss the teeth. If you cut a big enough divot in ratchet for case rims to clear you wouldn't have much tooth left for hand to engage. This is the big problem. Need to make a special frame window and hand with an offset in it of narrow up the trigger where hand works of it. Plus, making a K frame cylinder the OD of a Taurus cylinder means it would NOT fit in a K frame window unless you milled .013 off bottom of top strap and .013 off the bottom of window. You would also have to take about .013 of top of locking bolt so cylinder would clear it while rotating. Might work. You might even be able to use a slightly modified Taurus cylinder if you redid the K frames locking bolt a bit.

Lot of work to get a cylinder in a K frame that is only .094 smaller than one on an L frame

Now the Charter Arms cylinder is .093 smaller than a K frame cylinder. But its ratchet is tiny and you would really have your work cut out moving a K frame hand over .04 to operate a ratchet that small, plus, because it uses a .026tighterchamber patter you wouldneed to lower the barrel in a k frame the same amount.

Also notice the barrel shank of a K frame is .504 the opening in a f
44 forcing cone is about .440 that would leave .030 of material, that is thinner than a credit card and less than zero where the K frame has the flat on bottom. The CA has a barrel shank of .535 and the area between it and where yoke swings in is very thin. K frame already have a problem cracking forcing cone on 357.

So while a K frame 44 may not be impossible it is highly unlikely and would be pretty fragile IMHO.

If you want a 44 that is almost K frame sized get a Taurus 431. Mine is great smooth accurate and reliable and going to be on the market. (hard to find), but I now have a hard to find 696 and a 396) Looks good to. Or get a CA. If it has to be a S&W do as I did get a 696 and or a 396. With the 396 the little bit of size increase is more than made up for by the lighter weight.

If you want to wait for a S&W K frame in 44 mag or even 44 special start saving your money. You'll end up with some saved money, but no gun.

How bout a 10 shot 357mag X frame?



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Lets see
X frame cylinder OD is 1.915
Center cylinder to center of chamber .585.
circumference of chambers with that radius 3.676.
357 chamber dia is .381 x 10 = 3.810 so no to 10 at that radius
Move chamber out to leave an outside wall like an N frame 44mag at .076 plus 1/2 a chamber give us about a chamber center about .267 from the outside wall. Cylinder OD is 1.915 minus 2 chamber centers leaves a diameter of 1.381 and a circumference of about 4.337 divided by 10 means .433+ per chamber spacing minus .381 for the chamber and .052 between the chambers. This is more than a j frame 357 runs .046 on the outside walls so we should be good, but you could run the chamber radius out a bit and pick up a bit more here.

Anyway there is enough cylinder and you could leave the frame hole for the barrel the way it is if you made either a barrel with an offset bore or make an offset adapter to threat into existing frame hole and used a smaller shanked 357 barrel using something like L frame barrel threads. This would line the bore back up with chambers.
But because the X frame has such a long barrel lets just go with 10 357 maximum chambers.

Anytime you want to send me an X frame and a blank, never bored cylinder and a few blank, completely uncut ratchets I am ready to start. Want a 4" barrel on this thing? Oh, ya and a charge account at McMasters for tooling. LOL

So it CAN be done!

I was kidding! But, now that we're on it.....instead of going 357 maximum. .......how bout shortening the cylinder ( like the 625 PC is compared to the regular models or the JM) having the barrel have a longer shank- and 4"-5" would be doable. OH, and who can make 10 round moonclips?

What would we name this beast?

The X-10?

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