Can we discuss 6 O'Clock hold and your J frame?

Or any other smith revolver. Or any handgun for that matter.

Is it true that J frames are regulated to use a 6 O'Clock hold with 158 grain ammo? I thought I remember reading that somewhere.

For some reason it's just dawning on me now that I should probably be using a 6 O'Clock hold with my 442 after my last range session. I've always preferred top of post and probably old habits die hard. Although when I shot autos a lot I had to learn to shoot "to the dot" with my M9, Glocks, and HiPower. Which honestly I found annoying. But did it anyways. The 2 1911's I owned had a top of post POI. One came that way from the factory and the other one I made that way with a taller rear sight because it was shooting particularly low when I bought it.

So anyways... going the other way I find sort of mind boggling too. Like how low to you hold? I guess I just need to settle on what ammo I want to use mostly and figure out how high it hits at different distances. Do you all actually do that or just go close enough?

Up until now I just figured it was close enough but really it always shoots high. I do think different weight ammo will make a difference. It is my impression that the lighter weight bullets seem to impact lower and closer to top of post. And I may want to stick with those and stick with a top of post.

What do you guys do? After looking at a lot of my old targets, I don't know if it really does warrant it. I think maybe this last time it had to do with the fact that most of the ammo I shot was 158 grain LRN. But not all.

The first time I shot it. Top of post was on the X. Looks like MOSTLY high hits, but a few low. That was me probably anticipating recoil and dipping:


This time I remember aiming right at the tip of his nose. So yeah all high except a few right on. And yes, a lot right. That's me getting used to the heavy trigger I think. My guess is the lower stuff is the 125 grain and the 158 was hitting higher:


One range session a long time ago early in my shooting of this gun. I remember feeling crappy that day and I can't explain why there is so much low when all the other times seems like High hits are more typical. Other than just really bad shooting.


This one too has more low and close to POI:


Then my last range session definitely showed the bias towards higher. But like I said, more 158 grain LRN was shot than any other. Although I think at 7 yards there was 10 rounds of 132 PMC. At the 25 yard line I was basically aiming at the middle of the paper. Not necessarily the red bull in the body. So it seems more exaggerated that it really is. But it's still high:





So what have you guys found and what do you do? Do any of you not like 6 oclock hold? To me it seems so vague. I really like top of post best.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts......

Groo here
What you need to consider is at what RANGE the gun is sighted in.
The older guns M-10 etc were sighted in with the 158 standard load.
At 50 yds......
To hit at 50 you must hit high at closer ranges..
Also at 50 you sight at the bottom of the bull and hit the center,
so will hit higher yet.
Lighter bullets hit lower due to leaving the barrel sooner as the barrel
rotates up from kick.

Ask the gun.

Let's see .... 20 head shots at 7 yards. About 1/2 between the eyes and 1/2 in the forehead. No misses.

Explain the problem again ???

Every gun should have a "top of post" POI. With a "6 o'clock" POA on a 2" bull, the group should be right at the top of the post and centered in the bull.

If you use a "6 o'clock" POA on a an 8" bull, the POI should still be right at the top of the post, but the POI would now be way "low" in the bull. If I want to center that bull the POA needs to be "center hold" and the POI will also be "close enuff" to center-bull.

For defensive shooting, I prefer the bullet to impact directly "under" the sight, be it the front sight on the gun or the laser dot .... where the dot goes, the bullet goes. Bad guys generally don't wear 2", 6" or 10" circles on their chests. So there is no "6 o'clock" hold on a 10x18" target... POA = POI.

A gun should always shoot (close) to where it's pointed. If it doesn't, the question becomes "is it adequately close?" for the job at hand.

For ANY gun, I prefer excellent windage .. no more than 1-1.5" right or left at the distance it's most likely to be used. But, for defensive shooting, the elevation is a distant second concern ... the spinal column is only a couple inches wide but covers 20" vertically ... from frontal lobe of the brain to the tail bone, a spinal hit anywhere ends the fight.

My orientation in handgun shooting has always been for self defense. Given that point of view I have never had anyone explain where "6 O'Clock" is on the bad guy.


And despite all the nay-sayers, I've never sighted a handgun in at 7 yards. 20 to 25 yards is more the norm for me.


Dave

Top of the post and I practice at seven yards. With a six inch barrel I will go to 10 yards.

When and if I can see the target at 25 yards I will shoot at that distance as well.

Most of my shooting is with a K frame.

Examples of K-22, Model 10-8 and a 1921 M&P handejector.

I will admit to have a good day with the last target. The top six were slow single shots and the bottom two was my "dance off" double tap". Those kind of days don't happen for me much anymore but they sure are fun.

Yeah, I think I might try to stick with the lighter bullets and see which load hits the closest to top of post. Because it just makes more sense in self defense to me. Or just what I'm used to in general.

The trick with fixed sights gun is to find a load that is as close to POI for the sight picture you can live with.

Typically, I notice it most in my J frames with faster projectiles. A lighter weight, faster projectile prints lower. The 148 Gr and 158 grain loads are close enough for gubment work.

I shoot all my handguns at 25 yards. When a bullet is fired it drops when it comes out of the barrel then it’s spinning causes the bullet to rise. It makes an arc. I shoot at 25 yds and let the sights tell me we’re to aim the gun for the best accuracy.

My colt python 357/6” was hard to shoot at 25 yds. A had a local Leo with me at the range. I said watch the berm at 100yds. I pinged small rocks on the berm at 100yds. Aiming dead on. I left it that way. I was shooting my reloads of 140gr, 2400 powder.

I guess I'm the odd man out here. To me a J-frame is an up-close-and-nasty defensive revolver. It's not a 25-yard gun, to my way of thinking. If, God forbid, I'm forced to use one to save my decrepit derriere, I anticipate it will be point shooting without resorting to the sights, going for minute of miscreant accuracy.

K, L or N frame, whole other story.

Shooting my Model 60 @ 7 yards, holding six o’clock, had the groups printing consistently low by about an inch. Never did figure out why b/c I normally am spot on.

When I carried a M60 I used Buffalo Bore #20A 158 gr. SWCHP +P and they shot pretty much POA=POI at 7 yards. At 50 feet maybe an inch or so to the left but for a SD CCW that's close enough!

I have always found that 2" barreled guns shoot most accurately with 158 grain bullets as that is what hey were designed for. Lighter and faster bullets mostly shoot low for me.

When I have the option I sight my adjustable sight guns in at 6 o'clock on the Black so I can fully see the target. I shoot at 50 feet mostly, so that is my favored hold if adjustable.

All my "range" revolvers have the sights set for a 6 o'clock hold on a 3" standard bullseye target at 30'. That is just because there is something fun about trying to keep everything in the black.
Short barreled SD guns are another matter. It is unlikely you will ever see your sights in a sudden encounter with bad people. I work on moving as I draw and continuing that movement as I fire. I do this at 30' because that is a realistic max distance I will likely need these skills.

As for shooting my snubbie at 25 yds, I do this just for sharpening my concentration but I believe if I ever actually shoot someone at that distance, I better have a very good reason because it is my obligation to remove myself from the situation rather than engage.

What gnystrom said.

I agree that most shootings are probably going to be in your face bad breath scenarios. And I think a lot of real world shootings prove that out. However, we don't ever really know what's going to happen.

I have heard of situations where people are attacked by dogs. I don't know where I'd come down with if I would shoot at a charging pitbull before I knew he was vicious or not, but, it's something to possibly consider.

Also, one place I carry that is important to me is at church. I don't go to a big church. Our Sanctuary is about 25 yards long. I usually sit at the front. I also play on the worship team sometimes, so I'm up on stage. I like to try to be proficient at those distances.

Some churches are a heck of a lot larger than ours and you'd be better off with a carbine. But someone with a snubby that is practiced at shooting longer distances can learn to be proficient.

Plus shooting at longer distances I do believe helps you see where you might be lacking in skill and need improvement. Because a snubby is perfectly capable of making hits at distances longer than just 10 yards, as long as we do our part.

I'm no expert and I'm not saying everyone should do things and see things my way. These are just my reasons. I don't really quite get why people would insist that dry fire practice is a bad thing and shooting at longer distances is a bad thing. To me these things can only improve our shooting at any distance.

Shoot with a sand bag and bench to check or determine how the fixed sights are regulated. Then use accordingly.

On what looks like a model 36, small piece under grip, chrome look? what is that part called??

That's actually a Colt Detective Special. And it's a Tyler T grip. I bought it back in like 1999. But they are still made. Some people say he doesn't ship overly fast right now. There is also a guy that makes some polymer ones that look pretty much the same but matte black called BK grips.

I highly recommend them. It totally makes the grip on that gun much more serviceable.

I've found that all three of my 9's, all 3.25-3.5", and both of my Smith J's, one 2", one 3", shoot the same way. A little high at 30' with 147gr 9's and 158gr 38's, usually 2-3". Aim for the gut on a silhouette, get chest hits. With 115gr 9's or 90-110gr "specialty" 38's, aim for the silhouette neck, and get chest hits again. Practice, practice, practice. It pays off.