Auto Rim speed loader for 625-8?

The title sort of says it all. I tried an HKS 25-M which is listed for .45 Auto Rim for the S&W 25-2. It holds the AR cartridges but will not release them into the cylinder. The alignment is not correct and the cartridges bind in the speed loader. It is not the grips as I have tried with the cylinder removed from the revolver.

The 625-8 uses the same moon clips as the 1917 of WWI vintage. The Standard Catalog of S&W 4th Edition says the Model 25 used half moon clips. Was there a different chamber spacing in the 25-2 which has now gone back to the original spacing from WWI?

I need to dig my 1917 out of the safe and see if the speed loader will feed it. I am scratching my head.

Ken

consider trying another speed loader. The one you have might be deflective

You piqued my curiosity enough that I actually opened my safe and, with a flashlight finally found the necessary accessories to do some dynamic testing.

My 625-8 is a PC version - doubt that makes any difference. The speed loaders are HKS and simply marked "25" - these are old enough that they pre-date the introduction of the 25-5 (.45 Colt) so there was no need to differentiate them with the "M". The .45 AR rounds were loaded with Lyman 452424 255 gr SWC. When loaded into the speed loader, the cases are so short that the center pin of the loader, contacting the center of the rachet does not allow any part of the case into the cylinder - just the bullets and even those were above the driving band. The cartridges lined up with the chambers fine, and when released, gravity did its job and they all fell neatly into the chambers.

This begs the question - if you feel the need for a rapid enough reload that it requires a speed loader, why would you not use full moon clips? The .45 ACP revolvers are the most moon clip friendly revolvers there are and can be loaded at least twice as fast with a moon clip rather than an insert & twist, poorly aligned speed loader.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

The .45 ACP revolvers are the most moon clip friendly revolvers there are

Click to expand...

Thanks Pizza Bob, however, I would add the caveat that the revolver must have a hammer mounted firing pin.

I purchased my first (more about that in a minute) 625 (non) Performance Center revolver in April 2019. It did not function. Many failures to fire - light primer strikes.


I called S&W customer "service" but was not impressed. The 625 was made by the Performance Center and customer service knew nothing about it. The PC does not talk to customers "they do not have a phone" I was told. I considered my options:

1 - Take my plasma cutter to the thing, send the bits to the CEO of S&W and tell him to melt them down and make something which works (would have been the most satisfying as things transpired).

2 - Put it on Gun Broker and let someone else deal with it (in hind sight the best option)

3 - Send it to Clark Custom Guns and have them make a revolver out of it. That is what I did. Sent it end of April 2019. Loooooong story a bit shorter...

Several years ago they built me their "Light Weight Revolver" on a 67, Fantastic. I asked if they could make me a "Medium Weight Revolver" on the 625 - sort of a big brother to the LWR. "No problem!"

It came back this February with the wrong length barrel and BEAD BLASTED. Looked like ****. "We can buff that out." Back again. I saw it again in July. Not what had been specified on the work order. Back again. Lost in their shipping department for 4 weeks until I called and asked for status.

They decided to start over, purchased a new 625 and did the build. Very nice - what I had asked for originally. The only issue I have is an occasional light strike. I found scuffing on the hammer from the key safety "flag" (resolved that for the moment) and on the other side of the hammer from the side plate. I put some DyKem layout fluid on the side plate, reassembled and cycled a couple of times. I found some high spots on the side plate and have stoned them down. I also bumped up the DA pull from 8# to 9#. Seems to be better now but I have not fired it much. Tomorrow perhaps.

After all that blather... My 1917 (from 1918), Webley Mk V (1915) and Webley MkVI (1916) all use any moon clip and any ammo. No problem. The 625 is picky as to moon clips, case manufacturer etc. TK clips are .040" - .041" thick. I have other clips of unknown parentage which are .045" - .046" or .048" - .050". Some work with some brass in the 625 and other combinations bind.

The military revolvers have, I think, a looser tolerance which allows any moon clip/ammo to cycle. The hammer mounted firing pin comes through like a coal miner's pick and will set off the primer regardless of headspace.

The firing pin in the 625 has been replaced with a longer one which helps somewhat. And I guess I will have to stick with TK clips.

Finally, I tried the speed loader with the 1917 and Webley. It will release the rounds but it takes a lot of force to twist the knob. Much more than just to turn it past the detent in free air.

And thanks jimmyj, I did order 2 loaders. I have not unpacked the second one. I will have to give it a try.

Ken

First I have to take umbrage with your adding a caveat to my statement. No such caveat needed. In reality a frame mounted firing pin is considerably easier to service/replace than one mounted on the hammer nose. Secondly, it doesn't matter whether it is frame or hammer mounted it will only extend into cylinder window as far as the physical restraints allow. The parameters of those restraints can be changed - and again, easier to do with a frame mounted FP.

I have nine S&W revolvers chambered to take .45 ACP/AR. I used my 625-8PC for USPSA (until they let in the 8-rounders) and IDPA - still use it for IDPA. The gun has had many, many thousands of rounds through it. Do you think that I've never experienced light strikes? You probably can't find anyone that competes with a revolver that hasn't experienced light strikes at one time or another. Usually a pretty easy remedy with a little tuning, spring replacement etc - items wear and new guns sometimes are not put together with the greatest care, so not unusual.

You seem to have used sledge hammer to swat that "light strike" fly. You have way overthought, over analyzed and overspent to correct a common malady.

I have always used, and will continue to do so, Ranch Products moon clips in everything from my 25-2 to my 25-14 and a number of 625's and 22's in between. Never had a moon clip issue. And if an RSO happens to step on one as he follows me through a COF, no big deal - these are from the last batch of 100 I bought and cost me $.35 each. So if you think your clips are to blame and the $7 or $8 per clip that the EDM cut guys get for them is fixing your problem, you go right ahead.

I have to agree with you that the insert and twist HKS loaders for use with .45AR are really poorly thought out and executed. Without at least the case mouth going into the chamber, you have no leverage to twist the knob Maybe faster than loading singly - but only marginally so. Give me a full moon clip for any and all my .45 ACP revolvers.

Good luck solving your myriad problems.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

Sorry Pizza Bob, I did not mean to umber you. From my admittedly limited experience with these things the hammer mounted firing pin design is 3 for 3 at being reliable and not picky as to moon clip dimensions or ammo. The frame mounted pin is 0 for 2. Actually I might say 0 for 3. When I first called Clark the gunsmith mentioned that he had a 625 PC on the bench as we spoke. A customer sent it in with the same complaint although worse. Instead of an occasional failure to fire it had an occasional successful fire. He told me he often saw this issue with the 8 shot 9mm N frames from the PC. Perhaps the issue is with the folks at S&W who do not have a phone.

As to the moon clips... The TK clips came with the revolvers and a couple Clark put in when they returned the gun. The others are generic "military surplus" which I have accumulated over the years from Sarco, Numerich and gun shows. I have heard of the Ranch clips. They are the polymer ones are they not? Perhaps I will order a few.

As to the malfunctions... With the thicker clips (.048" - .050") I have found on occasion that the cylinder will drag or even bind up after 4 rounds. If I pull the unfired rounds out of the clip and load them the same chambers will cycle smoothly. As the rounds SHOULD be headspacing on the case mouth against the ridge in the chamber - this is a head scratcher.

The obvious light strikes such as shown in the picture I am chalking up to intermittent drag on the hammer. I believe I have that resolved as I described earlier. On the other hand, several times I have experienced a couple of failures to fire out of 6. The primer indents all LOOK the same and generally a second strike will fire the cartridges. The same lot of ammo works fine in any of my 1911s.

I had been experimenting with the .45 AR cartridge to eliminate headspace variations perhaps from differences in case length. Thus I decided to order a couple of speed loaders along with some other stuff from MidwayUSA. I have used HKS speed loaders for years with traditional revolver cartridges (.38 SPL, .357 Mag, .44 Mag) with good results. The .45 AR is very stubby. Perhaps that is the problem.

The 625 came from the PC with a Wolff mainspring - the one with the patented "rib" for whatever that does. Clark replaced it with a flat mainspring. The DA pull measured about 8#. I changed back to a Wolff standard strength spring which gave me a 10# pull. I backed out the tension screw and now have 9# which seems to be working OK. If I get motivated to hose myself down with bug repellent I will make my way through the clouds of mosquitoes to my range and do some more testing today.

Thanks again for your input. No umbrage intended.

Ken

p.s. Would you like to have TEN S&W revolvers chambered in .45ACP?

p.p.s. - Edit - I was mistaken about the polymer moon clips. Some other brand I guess. The Ranch clips look like a good value. Their web site is down this morning and the first supplier I found wanted to charge $10 shipping for a $6 pack of 8 clips. However, there is always evilbay. I found the 8 pack for $9.99 delivered. I will order those and give them a try. Thanks for the tip.

I give up.

BTW, i had a hammer mounted firing pin equipped 625-2 that misfired regularly, finally sold it as the two newer 625 .45 ACPs with the frame mounted f.p.'s haven't had a lick of trouble. (Admittedly, the 1917s and the five screw 1955 haven't been trouble, either, but they're not so accurate.)

As for HKS .45 AR speed loaders: No thanks! I'd rather just drop them in individually.

Thanks jaymoore,

I am getting more disgusted with this project by the day. I have observed some scuffing on the right side of the hammer at the business end. I am going to see if I can fit a .001" shim on the right side of the hammer pivot and see if that will prevent the hammer from occasionally contacting the frame. If that does not do the trick I think I will send it back to Clark and tell them to fix it.

As to the speed loaders... I have used HKS speed loader for other calibers for many years in many revolvers. Granted they are not necessarily as quick as moon clips and they can have clearance issues with some grips but I never came across one which did not work at all. I have not found any contact info for HKS and I am not sure it is worth the postage and time to send them back to Midway.

Ken

Ain't no d***ed revolver going to outsmart me Time to close out this thread (and I think throw the speed loaders in the trash.)

To recap - the hammer, being black oxide finished, shows where it is rubbing quite plainly. On the lower left - along the rounded part - it was badly scored. I had hoped (assumed?) that the gunsmith had dealt with that area. (Wrong.) So I have been focusing on the slight scratch marks on the right side of the hammer at the top.

I found that my shim washers only go down to .002" so I added one to the right side of the hammer. I also used a black Sharpie marker to cover the scratches on BOTH sides of the hammer. 6 rounds to test. ONE actually fired. Low and behold the Sharpie was badly scuffed on the left side of the hammer. Upon disassembly and examination I observed that a small protrusion on the frame above the bolt channel appeared to be scuffed.

I put my .002" shim washer on the LEFT side, reassembled, reapplied Sharpie and tested again. Several failures to fire but no scuffing of the left side of the hammer. I again coated the side plate with DyKem layout ink and continued to tracking down high spots. I have some rubber/abrasive polishing bits (from widgetsupply dot com if you like Demel sort of stuff) which I used in my Foredom rotary tool to clean up the side plate.

I just came back from across the road (using some old pine stumps as targets). 24 rounds - no runs, no drips, no errors as the Krylon commercial says 24 nice serious primer indents.

I guess I could have done this to the original 625 LAST April. However, I wanted a longer barrel and I could not deal with the brass bead front sight - at least not in the bright light of day. Now I need to find some grips that fit my large hand. I need to get 3 matching sets for my 617, 67 LWR and this new 625 Frankenrevolver.

Ken