I have a newish Model 60 .357 with a 3 inch barrel and adjustable rear sight. S&W says it can take "continuous 38 Special +P use".
So, how much continuous. 357 magnum use can it take?
What are the symptoms of this revolver in distress?
Will S&W fix it under warranty?
Thanks,
AA

I imagine quite a lot. You will wear out before the gun. The five shot has the cylinder stop notches offset from the chambers so in theory the 5 shot J cylinder is stronger than a 6 shot K.
I have always considered 357 in a J frame a silly endeavor anyway.

J-Magnums are Real 357s

Let's face it, a pocket sized 357 with tiny grips is not what you are going to take out for a FUN day at the range. It is a gun for when you turn down the wrong street and get into something unexpected. And obviously for practicing for that day

Clearly a pocket sized 357 Magnum is not for all shooters, we all need to know our limitations. But when you need lots of power in a small package there is not much else to compare. No matter the size of the firearm or the length of the barrel, 357 Magnum delivers noticeably more power than it's 38 brothers. There is nothing silly about wanting more power, especially if it is within your skill set to handle it.

NONE of my J-frames that say 357 Magnum on them have ever seen a round of any of the three less powerful cartridges fired in them while I own them

My 340 now has over 7000 full power 357 Magnums through it and is going strong

The 3" Model 60 Chiefs Special Target is a great little revolver. I have one of the 182 Lew Horton Small Hunters. I did add the Factory Rosewood grips to mine

I have no idea how much ammunition has been through it as I am the second owner

The longer barrel and extra weight to help to offset the recoil of the 357 Magnum cartridge

The symptoms of a J-frame in distress is no different than a K, L or N frame. Smith & Wesson would not be selling a sub-standard product.

Warranty is for defects in materials or workmanship. This is traditionally offered only to the original purchaser.

Warranty is not for wear and tear issues

That being said, if you wear out your 3" Model 60 Chiefs Special Target by putting an HUGE amount of projectiles down range, I bet that the Factory would do something for you

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"Acta non verba"

Probably more rounds than most would be willing to subject their wrists. My 640-1 is now stoked with CCI Speer 135 grain JHP 38 Special +P Short Barrel ammo. It's easier to control and follow up shots come much faster than with full power 357 Magnum ammo, but it is nice to have the option of using 357 Magnum ammo.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

That's one of those "If we make it, they will buy it." deals----doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but that's a minor detail. It all comes under the heading of "Some's good, more's better, and too much is just right!"

The bottom line is if the bad guy has a .22 pointed at you, don't be thinking you're going to prevail with a quick draw of your magnum. It ain't going to happen!

Ralph Tremaine

Answer: More than I can.

If you shoot full power loads, your wrist and the palm of your hand will soon tell you to STOP! Beyond that - go for it! 😁😁

You will break down and cry "Uncle" before the gun does .
Shoot a box of Hot-N-Heavy 357 Magnum loads through it and you will understand .
Hang on tight and get ready for a wild ride !

There is such a thing as " Too Much of a Good Thing ! "
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

The cost of the ammo expended to cause timing issues/endshake, flame cutting on topstrap, etc. should be well past the cost of the revolver. How many rounds will depend on the type ammo used. Lighter weight 357 can cause more top strap cutting due to the blast, ie why smith warns against less than 120 gr bullets in the titanium cylinder revolvers as the blast can cut into the titanium cylinders quicker. Heavy weight boomers from buffalo bore/underwood, etc will slightly speed up the timing and endshake issues, as well. Moderate loads will take longer to wear. Granted a jrame is not an L frame, so trying to use the j frame as a competition shooter with magnum loads is not what it is designed for - so one will be dissatisfied with longevity for that use…

Something I've noticed with the J frames is that when pocket carried they are typically equipped with teeny tiny grips. Which makes them nearly useless for rapid fire shooting. Basically they are one shot and then re-grip pistols. Now throw the 357 magnum into the mix, then the question is can you keep the gun in your hand. Then there is the matter if all that sound and fury actually provides for a significant increase in velocity over 38 special. From a 1 7/8 inch barrel I don't think it does.

What it boils down to is simple, if you really need 357 Magnums then purchase a 3 inch model 60 and plan on equipping it with ugly rubber Hogue Combat Grips. Then if you carry do it in a IWB holster, NOT a pocket.

Now for the longevity question. The Steel J frames are pretty darned tough little guns. With 38 special they should last a very long time. However if you look at how thin the barrel extension going thru the frame is and how thin the frame is under the barrel and you will see the consequence of designing a revolver to be as light as is possible. Compared to a K frame at it's famous barrel flat you will see the J frame are even thinner in these critical areas. I just don't think the design is well suited for the 357 Magnum. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should do it. I would suggest only minimal use of 357 Magnums in any J frame.

My 60-10 micro-686 is loaded w/ +P hollow-points for Urban carry and 158 gr soft points for excursions into Penn's Woods.

After reading all the posted answers, nothing more I can say… You will need deep pockets and strong hand and wrist to wear out your gun.

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S&W factory revolver armorer

"I have a newish Model 60 .357 with a 3 inch barrel and adjustable rear sight. S&W says it can take "continuous 38 Special +P use".
So, how much continuous. 357 magnum use can it take?
What are the symptoms of this revolver in distress?
Will S&W fix it under warranty?"

Great question.

For your peace of mind, I would adhere to S&W's guideline and stick with the .38 Special +P ammunition; however, I think you are good to go if you should choose to shoot the .357 magnum load sparingly. Meaning that your Model 60 is going to be ok so long as it's about two cylinders per range session. Hence, train with the 38 Special +P only and carry the .357 Magnum load of choice. That is how I see it. As always, don't forget to maintain your firearm after every range session.

As many .357 rounds as your hand, wrist, and bank account can stand!! But why? Any handgun when put under continued use with very strong ammo could malfunction or eventually break. A torture test on a small frame revolver with powerful rounds makes little sense to me. The older I get, the less I want to shoot many .357 rounds. A couple of cylinders in my 686 Mountain gun is enough for me.

Thank you for all the replies.
This is one of those guns that just felt right in my hands. I like round butt J and L frames. Never handled a round butt K frame.
I bought it for carrying OWB when I'm out and about in nature.
This revolver came with the S&W rubber grips and to be honest, it's not that bad. I've put 100+ 125gn. Remington hp rounds through it. The POI changes when using .38 +P so I sighted it in with the magnum loads. Definitely not a plinking round.
It fits a need well. I bought a lot of all the ammo I will ever use in my lifetime when it was relatively cheap. I have enough .357 Mag to see who gives up first. Maybe we'll see.
I'll let you know.
Thanks again,
AA

S&W won't fix your hand - if that's what you're asking.

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

I only rarely shoot .357 out of my 3" 60, and when I do I use Pachmayr compact rubber grips. For .357 I need to have a covered back strap rubber grip, and Pachmayr compact (not compact pro) provided the best level of comfort and recoil tolerance. Almost always I'm shooting .38 with Altamont Altai grips. I don't know how much continuous .357 it could take. More than I'm willing to tolerate I know that.

Almost certainly more than your hand can.

Lots of good information here. Thank you.

About two weeks ago I was working out my 38 Special 60–4 with Buffalo Bore 158LSWHP +P.

Don’t know how much more velocity the 357 generates with a 158, but the BB was completely tolerable, and accurate. Grips were factory J – bananas.

If you plan on shooting an extensive amount of .357 I hope that you reload. That’s the only way I can afford shooting. If you reload you can tailor your loads to get the best combination of accuracy and power. I never liked the crud ring you get shooting .38’s in a .357 so I shoot only .357 ammo in that caliber of gun. I have found that maximum velocity doesn’t usually produce maximum accuracy in a handgun. I have also found that the longer bearing surface of heavier bullets usually gives better accuracy. My loads bridge the area between .38+P and full blown .357. Shooting them is easier on me and the gun. Jacketed bullets and high velocity accelerate wear so I limit their use. Reloading makes shooting less painful on my hand and wallet. If I didn’t reload I would look at some of the hotter .357 cowboy ammo available and go with them for the target range. If you want to stick with factory full blown ammo regularly pick up a S&W 686 and enjoy it.

Best Regards,
ADP3

Sounds like 7000 rounds and more is the answer to the question based on one users experience . Others are speculation. 7000 is a lot of magnum shooting. My 3 inch model 60 gets mostly 158 grain bullets at around1000 fps so I do not have a valid answer . I do think the cracked forcing cones on k frames is way overstated on the internet given the little j frames seem to hold up without cracking forcing cones

8,567 give or take

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Forum consigliere

"Continuous" does not mean load a box of +P's every week and shoot them. Not IMHO. Small guns are small guns and the laws of nature say they will shoot loose.

I believe the laws of nature more than I do some gun manufacturer's marketing hype.

There are things that can be repaired. Here is what Mas Ayoob says about his j-frames:
"Over the years, I’ve shot my Airweight J-Frames a lot with the hot +P ammo I carry in them. I’ve had a Model 38 Bodyguard Airweight from the 1970s rebuilt at least twice, once as a direct result of two boxes of Federal .38 Special +P+ ammo that stretched the aluminum frame’s cylinder window to the point where excessive headspace was causing misfires. As time went on, S&W incrementally strengthened its J-Frames. An early 1990s production Model 442 Airweight made it through 15 years of regular qualifications with +P ammo. Then it went in for re-timing."

He currently carries a model M&P340 in his left front pocket loaded with +p ammo. That gun costs around $1000 which is a little rich for me. I use the Model 38 Airweight.

Please correct me, I think the fighting philosophy behind the Model 60 is that this will be used as the primary arm so the cartridge needs to be powerful enough. Lately that question is usually addressed by referencing FBI standard gelatin testing in which 38 special rounds either fail to expand and over penetrate, or reliably expand but under penetrate. Similarly, some shootists are preoccupied with muzzle energy numbers which depend on maximum velocity. I see no harm in any of this as long as we remember that a gunfight is more fight than gun.

Col. Jeff Cooper explained why it is that we talk about gear all the time. He was addressing the old saw "Beware the man with only one gun". He pointed out that if we all really believed in that then the gun industry would go out of business! I don't know about that, but what I have found is that my skills and my equipment work together. I have practiced so much with 230 grain 45acp rounds that out of my Model 457, I know what they are gonna do.

In other words, if I were in the situation of Eli Dicken at that Greenwood, Indiana mall food court, I am going to automatically run to the next closer pillar and not even think about engaging at 40 yards the way he did. Do we all need to practice at 40 yards now? Sure! Why ever not? Do we also need to start carrying long barreled guns with red dot sights to be better at 40 yards? Uhhh....no?

My best answer then to your initial question is, try to shoot the pistol till it's worn slap out. That will be a great excuse to shop for a new pistol.
I will be interested in your go to equipment and your training practice regimen if you care to share. Thanks!

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696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

Take it FWIW as I am no expert, but I will tell you what I learned in researching this issue carefully. The model 19 forcing cone problem which led to the development of the L frame was a result of using the 125 grain magnum load for regular practice. At the time there was an almost mythical status given to the Federal 125gr SJHP and Marshall and Sanow were giving it an ever increasing "one shot stop" rating using methodology which by now has been discredited due to mistakes in their statistical analysis. There was a new attitude of LEO's training and practicing with their carry loads. The current consensus is that this revolver was being flame cut because the 125 grain bullet is too short. The flames surround the bullet and enter the bore before the nose has fully sealed it. The longer bullet however is still sealed at the base as the nose seals the barrel. Some forcing cones failed due to metallurgy. Some failed because of leading. It didn't take much. At the time it was very common to shoot up boxes of lead practice rounds and then end a range session with a few copper-jacketed rounds to check the performance of the more expensive self-defense rounds. I did that many, many times and I was never careful about possible leading at the forcing cone. I got away with it. Others did not.

My model 696 is known for splitting a forcing cone once in a while. It is vanishingly rare, but it does happen. I completely agree with you about how these things get hyped on the internet. I also avoid leading the barrel with hot semi-wadcutters. I do not feel the need to turn my 696 into a magnum even temporarily. I also do not see the need to shoot specials in a magnum. I hate that crud ring in the cylinder which interferes with the ejection during speed loading. I can get it clean using Iosso Bore Cleaner and more time and elbow grease than I care to spend.

Please correct me with my thanks. I say these things not to teach but rather to learn.

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696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

Can you get one shot stops? Yes. Most suicides prove it; no matter what the round......shot placement is King!

Every time? no

IMO "one shot stops" ranks right up there with "shoot the gun out of their hand" or shoot them in the arm/leg!

So "forget about it!"

IMHO a good fast, well placed, double tap is the minimum you should strive/train for..... with a .38,9mm, +P or magnum!

Apply again as necessary; to stop the threat of death or serious bodily harm!

My model 60 Pro Series 3" 357 whacks the fingernail bed with the trigger guard when 357 rounds are fired. A 50 round box or two can cause a slight wound. I didn't buy the Model 60 for target shooting. I suppose I could run 38 special in it but why buy a magnum then not run magnum?

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U.S. Coast Guard, retired CPO

Speer Manual #14 lists the following as max loads using their 135gr GDHP-SB bullet:

38 Special, AA#7, 8.2gr @ 882mv & 233me, 2" bbl. M15
357MAG, AA#9, 15.5gr, @ 1258mv & 475me, 2.5" bbl. M19

The 357MAG has twice the power of the 38Spcl.

Is it significant? Yes.

Is it worth it? That's up to you.

.

In my 340PD my SD carry load is essentially a 38 Spcl +P+ load in a 357Mag case; Speer 135 GDHP-SB with 9.2gr/P-P which my chrono says equals 1090mv & 356me.

This is a nice compromise load for me that fits in midway between a 38Spcl - 357Mag and matches my 9x19 SD carry load in my 3" CSX (125gr JHP @ 1131mv / 353me

.



.

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Waiting for the break of day

There's an old saying----"Some's good, more's better; and too much is just right!"

Most folks of my acquaintance deem that to be applicable to horsepower and money---maybe also to Pecan pie. S&W folks deem that to mean, "If we build it, they will buy it!"

And sure enough, they bought it. Then they tried it out, and started having second thoughts. It's too bad they didn't have any first thoughts.

Ralph Tremaine

I dont have a 357 jframe but have the 4” sp101 and have shot approximately 600-700 357 rounds thru it without any issue. So it is doable with probably many thousands of rounds. Doable does not equal enjoyable. I DO find shooting 38 out of any jframe highly enjoyable, snubby or not.
Im in the camp that the j frame will shoot loose over time but who knows when that will happen. Fyi shooting outdoors is better with 357 than indoors. If you manage to shoot it loose, then I would assume youre a handloader

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Romans5:8

I’ve shot almost 4000 rounds of 357 mag through my 360. Mostly hand loaded 158gr. My hand loads tend to be on the higher end of the scale, because it’s what my guns seem to like the best. My normal load is with AA#9, but I do go through some H110. The fireball from my 360 with some H110 is impressive, I’ve had people in the next stall poke their head around to see what I was shooting.

With that said, I do carry mine with some 135gr Gold Dot short barrel rounds. They are pleasant shooting out of my 360, and surprisingly I’ve got a 158gr load that has a similar recoil that I practice with.

Basic physics tells me the smaller, thinner and lighter the gun is, the more it would wear and stretch with continued Magnum use. The shooter would probably raise the white flag before the gun did - it's not much fun shooting more than a cylinder or two full. I own a 3" M65 (K frame) and even limit that to very few Magnum loads. In the 30 years I have owned the gun maybe I put through only a few dozen magnum loads. I mostly carry the Magnums in the field and shoot 38 specials most of the time.

For sustained use with Magnums, an L or N frame really should be used IMHO.

Probably a lot more than your hand can take.

H-110/W-296 loads in a handgun are an attention getter.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

That's the only reason I can see for using 296 powder and apparently that's a good reason for some. I used plenty of it in .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum years ago, always with cast bullets. Accuracy with 296 was excellent, but no better than loads using #2400, a more "pleasant" powder. There was sometimes a slight velocity advantage with 296 loads, but not nearly enough to offset the tremendous blast and fireball drawbacks.

The only time I can recall seeing a bright muzzle flash on a sunny day from my 6" Python was with a load using 296 powder.

Your "how much" question will remain unanswered. To do it right, an enormous amount of testing would be required. This would necessitate time, effort, and expense that virtually no one would care to do.

On top of all that, using only one gun for such a project might reveal little. Like the guy that posts on the Internet a photograph of one incredibly small group from one rifle one time is no indication he has an accurate rifle, even if he and his followers erroneously think otherwise.

Testing two identical revolvers would provide far more in the way of usable information. It won't happen, but be thankful for the very few who actually keep track of the rounds fired through whatever gun. Their figures may be far from definitive answers as to longevity, but that's as close as you're going to get.

It's 8,479. You don't know what you are talking about.

If I remember correctly, S&W introduced the L-frame revolvers because .357 Magnum loads on the K-frames tended to stretch the frames after many shots. I have no idea how this affects J-frames but it's something to consider.

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You are what you learn.

While I doubt a properly made J Frame would just blow up - they would probably stretch, go out of time and loosen up with sustained magnum use. I have always limited small frame guns to only small amounts of magnum loads and mostly use them with 38 specials.

I can tell you that even K frames will eventually succumb to over use of magnums. One of my hunting bud's M66 had so much end shake from shooting magnums, it had to be repaired because it was no longer capable of reliably firing. He did shoot many 125 grain magnums out of it - this was before common knowledge was not to use light magnums in those Revolvers.

So, avoid the 125 grain Remington and Winchester PDX1 rounds?
AA

I would not use any 357 magnum rounds weighing less than 135 grains. I use the 158 and 180 grain weight and mostly out of a stronger L Frame.

I’m aware this is OT but I’m down to my last box & a half of that. Do you have a source for purchase or maybe you just loaded up before it disappeared from the stores?

One of my favorite things about Smith over Colt is their lifetime warranty. Shoot as many as you want and I’m the rare event you shoot it out of time years from now they’ll fix it no questions asked

When the M1 Carbine was being developed the military benchmark was 6,000 rds and for some it was not reached.

I look at it this way. If you shoot some perp in the engine room with a J frame 38 Sp 158 gr lead, it will enter, hit a rib and turn sideways and the guy's going to get very sick very fast after that.

Salient point is that every round you fire has your name on it. Cops have a rich relative that pays for their mistakes, we don't. Picking hairs about this that and the other is pretty much a waste of time. Blazing away with .357s that scare everyone including the shooter are asking for trouble with bystanders. It's trouble that nobody needs. Pray that you never have to use it. I have a brother who did everything right during an armed robbery and the newspapers made him into a fool with a stupid article. He just missed going to jail. A pickup with firemen aboard saved his butt by being right in the area. The two perps drove away and the cops put my brother in cuffs. That's trouble I don't need.

I never asked about shooting somebody. My question was about the durability of the revolver. The symptoms of any problem with it and the warranty. This is not a self defense weapon. I have something better suited for that task at all times.
Always Armed

If you want more power get a bigger caliber.

I have always considered 357 in a J frame a silly endeavor anyway.



Probably quite a few of those buried in a sock drawer after the first range session.

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That's just somebody talkin.

My wife’s mini-me of my 686+ has had the sum total of two through it. A 158 grain Remington SJHP and a 135 grain Gold Dot. They were shot by me because I had to know how it felt. It stays loaded with Gold Dot 135 grain 38+p. They are quite comfortable for my wife to handle and should be sufficient for the task with a three inch barrel. I expect the vast majority of these little guns are loaded with 38s. I don’t think S&W makes a stainless steel three inch J frame in 38 anymore. My wife likes it and keeps it with her so I am satisfied with it as a 38.

Hugh


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38 Special Federal 130gr. HST
38 Special Ammo - Federal HST Personal Defense Micro 130gr JHP - 20 Rounds

357 Magnum Buffalo Bore 125gr. Barnes XPB
Premium 357 Magnum Ammo For Sale - 125 Grain XPB HP Ammunition in Stock by Buffalo Bore - 20 Rounds

The .357 load is 600 hundred feet per second faster from a 2" barrel, and delivers 397 foot-pounds MORE kinetic energy. Most people will consider that "significant."

.38 load.....................357 load
826 fps........................1,426 fps
197 fpe (266 joules).......594 fpe (796 joules)

People don't buy these guns to plink at the range, they buy them to carry for real life self-defense. With appropriate rubber grips they don't move in the hand under recoil, they merely kick so hard one wonders if they have fractured bones, BUT under the adrenaline-fueled circumstances of self-defense, a bullet traveling over 1,400 feet per second, impacting with just shy of 600 foot-pounds of kinetic energy beats one coming under 200 foot-pounds.

The links to the the gelatin tests show the difference.

On this I was actually lucky. I stocked up in late 2019, just before the panicdemic began.

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