Lighten DA Trigger w/o Changing SA

Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
1,262
Reaction score
2,899
Location
Sorta Downeast
I just got a Model 25-2. Single action trigger is just about perfect for me at slightly over 3 pounds. However, the double action pull is over 11 pounds. This is a target gun for me, so I'll be shooting single action mostly but I'd still like to get the DA trigger pull to 10 pounds or slightly less.

Wolff's reduced power mainspring is one option. The guy there confirmed on the phone today that there is a possibility of ignition problems with their lighter spring. I am not interested in having ignition problems.

Some advocate shortening the mainspring tension screw. When, if ever, is that the best option for reducing DA trigger pull?

Is there any other option? In my search here, someone mentioned a possible change to the shape of the double action sear but I wasn't clear on that modification. Is it addressed in Kuhnhausen's S&W revolver book?

FWIW this gun has been fired very little despite leaving the factory in 1976. I've been inside after some dry firing, and there isn't any obvious hammer rub or other hangups in the action.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
TinMan,

If you shortened (NOT simply back out) the Main spring tension screw just a hair, and stick in a Wolf rebound spring (let's say about a 13 pound spring), make sure there are no burrs on the innards, and use some Remoil inside, your DA pull will go down. More than likely your SA pull will also be SLIGHTLY reduced, but probably not appreciably. I find that the Wolf 13 lb. spring has always been reliable for me, but the 11 lb. is too light for my taste. Brownells sells a set of 5 Wolf springs in a kit so you can experiment and find which one works for you.

Do not shorten your original main spring tension screw. Buy a new one (get a few - - they are cheap) and play with that one. I would put the original full length one, along with the original rebound spring in the box with a note they they are the original Factory parts. This way if you ever want to restore the gun to Factory, you easily can.

I like the Remoil becasue it is a very good lubricant (contains Teflon) and quickly evaporates the carrier leaving the protective film behind. It will not attract dust or gum up, and it is clear so it will not stain anything.

This is a simple procedure, and not an expensive one either, so if you don't like the results (which I doubt) you can restore the Factory parts in a jiffy.

Chief38
 
I have to disagree with Chief38's advice. I've done some controlled experiments using a Lyman digital trigger gage and have learned that a lot of the conventional wisdom concrning trigger tuning is incorrect.

The mainspring pressure has very little effect on the single action break, that is controlled mainly by the rebound spring and the angle of the SA sear on the trigger. What controls the weight of the Double Action trigger is the Mainspring tension with the rebound spring having almost no effect.

If you want to lighten the DA trigger without much change in the SA trigger you'll have to reduce the mainspring tension. Since I have a Dremel and a selection of Diamond burrs for it I've been making shims that fit under the head of the strain screw to do this. Another alternative is to purchase some spare strain screws and file the tip in a stairstep fashion while alternating strain screws. To do this you'll need something to accurately measure the length of the strain screw as you file the tip. I would also suggest that you proceed in 0.005 inch increments, because shorting the strain screw can reduce the DA trigger weight by a lot more than you might expect. For example, 0.030 inch of shim on the strain screw on my 625 took the DA trigger from 12 lbs. to 8 lbs. I would also suggest purchasing that Lyman trigger gage from Brownells, it's an excellent trigger gage that is easy to use.

As for weight, I would suggest that you target a DA trigger pull of 9.5 lbs., IMO that will prove reliable and quite useable for what you want to do. Once you get down to 9 lbs. you may start to see an occasional misfire with some brands of ammunition such as Sellier & Belloit.
 
I second Scooters opinion about the mainspring tension. The rebound spring doesn't have much effect on the DA pull. A simpler solution to the strain screw issue is to buy a stainless or blue 8/32x1/2" hex key set screw and replace the strain screw with it. Put a little blue Loctite on it. Adjust (tighten) the screw until you start getting no misfires with the ammo you use. This will usually be about a 8 to 9 lb. trigger pull. When adjusting use quarter turn increments.
 
All my revolvers with frame mounted firing pins have either the C&S or Apex extra length firing pin installed. I only use federal primers and have not experienced any failures to fire with an 8lb DA trigger. I just bent the original mainspring to the same configuration as the "Miculek" spring sold by Brownell's and shortened the mainspring screw.
 
Thanks guys. I'm going to get both the full power and reduced power mainsprings from Wolff, plus some stainless 8-32 hex head screws to experiment with.

I'd like to see the Miculek mainspring bend but do not want to alter the original spring in this gun.

Chief made me think of trying Rem DriLube, especially on the rebound slide.

I've already experimented with rebound springs in a Model 66-4 and ended up using the 15 lb. spring for reliable reset. In that revolver, I got double-action pull slightly over 9 pounds and single-action just under 3 pounds. Both were much higher before I started. As far as I could tell from measurements, the rebound spring did have a small effect on double action trigger pull.
 
Scooter123:

Changing the rebound spring has to help the trigger pull somewhat. When the trigger is pulled, you are compressing the spring. The easier it is to compress the spring, the lighter the pull will be. I do agree that it won't make a drastic difference, but he will have the side plate off anyway, and it certainly won't hurt - so that's why I would suggest changing it out while he is at it. It is easy enough to swap back with the original or any other value reduced power springs. I do agree that the main thing is the strain screw/main spring as we have both stated - but none the less, the less force one has to over come, the lighter and smoother the pull should be.

I do STRONGLY AGREE with some of your other posts urging people NOT to stone the trigger/sear engagement ( as I have urged as well in other posts ). I have seen way too many people ruin perfectly good mechanisms by doing this. I have fixed a lot of them also, but some people remove so much that a new hammer & trigger has to be installed. Even if they are "fixable" it is only a temporary fix at best over the long haul.


Regards,
Chief38
 
Such a can of worms. Both the rebound spring and main spring will affect the SA pull. The rebound spring probably having a greater effect. I used to set my triggers at 2 1/2 Lbs for silhouettes with a full strength mainspring, un-altered strain screw, and reduced power rebound spring. I shot a 617 for RF and a 629 Classic DX for CF NRA Hunter Pistol.

As for DA pull you should be able to fire even CCI primers at 7 1/2 lbs but you may (probably will) end up with a sub 3 lb SA pull to get there. Try the Wolff reduced power mainspring and a socket set screw to adjust it. You can always install a same length oem strain screw if you feel a "fully tightened strain screw" is necessary. Use a rebound spring to suit. Juggle the mainspring and rebound to get where you want. DON'T mess with the sears.

You strike a balance on rebound/mainspring and fitting. How well you get your finger off the trigger has a big effect on how much rebound spring you need too.
 
Last edited:
My post this morning was in haste, so I just covered what happens in general terms. As has been noted by others the rebound spring does have a minor effect on the DA trigger pull. In addition, the mainspring tension also has a minor effect on the SA break. However, these cross effects are minor.

The way that I set my triggers is by adjusting the mainspring first to a weight that is about 1/2 lbs. heavier than my target. Then I'll install a lighter rebound spring that produces a single action break as close to 3 lbs. as I can get. With the SA sear on the trigger set to the factory angle I've found that in most cases a 14 lbs. rebound spring will produce a 3 lbs. break. After that I'll check the double action weight and refine it by either filing or shimming the strain screw until it's at my target weight.

BTW, I've tested for reliability using Winchester, Remington, Speer Lawman, and Federal ammunitions and 8 lbs. has proven reliable with all of these brands. With Sellier and Belloit ammo a heavier trigger may be needed, recent posts indicate this brand has an exceptionally hard primer. Unfortunately stock of S&B ammo dried up in my area about 2 years ago so I haven't been able to test for what DA trigger weight is reliable with Sellier and Belloit.

Now, about that target weight for the DA trigger.

With the guns that use a frame mounted firing pin I've found that installing a Cylinder & Slide extended firing pin will produce reliable ignition with a DA trigger weight of 8 lbs. even. This combination has also proven reliable in my 625 JM with the casings headspacing in the chambers, meaning without moon clips. As for why, the C&S firing pin is not only longer, it also features an extended travel capability in comparison to the factory firing pin. Now, one warning, this firing pin should NOT be used until the DA trigger weight has been reduced to 9 lbs. or less, using it with a factory weighted trigger runs a real risk of a pierced primer.

With those guns that feature a hammer mounted firing pin I've been more conservative. This system does not allow you to purchase a longer firing pin to assist with ignition reliability. Because of this I run my guns with a hammer mounted firing pin at 9 lbs. even and it's proven reliable. However, for an earlier revolver chambered in 45 ACP it might be necessary to increase the DA trigger to 9.5 lbs. just to insure it'll be 100% reliable. Since I don't own an earlier revolver in 45 ACP I am taking the conservative approach here and may be too conservative in how light you can take the trigger in a 45 ACP revolver.

Finally, concerning trigger return. One thing that I've found is critical in assuring a good crips trigger return with a lighter rebound spring is to pay attention to making the rebound slide as "drag free" as can be achieved. In older guns with a forged rebound slide that means breaking the sharp corner between the bottom and inside faces. The frame recess in these frames is milled and if the milling cutter had a bit of wear it can produce a small radius in that bottom corner in the frame recess. When this is the case, the sharp corner on the rebound slide can "dig into" that radius and produce drag. If you look at the newer MIM rebound slides you'll see that this corner is radiused specifically to eliminate Corner Drag. Next step is to smooth the frame recess a bit where the rebound slide runs, I like to wet sand the area with some 800 grit sandpaper until I see an even linear scratch pattern in the direction the rebound slide runs. Next, a light stoning of the rebound slide on a 1200 grit stone in the direction of travel will assure is runs smooth. Finally, I use a bit of Diamond lapping paste on a 1/8 diameter piece of bamboo skewer chucked in my Dremel to polish the bore in the rebound slide so that the spring won't drag. If you take these steps I expect you'll find that a 13 or 14 lbs. rebound spring will return quickly enough that most mortals won't be able to move their finger fast enough to lose contact with the trigger. However, if you have a problem with poor return, I'd suggest installing a heavier spring and doing a lot of shooting or dry firing to put some rub marks on the sideplate or frame recess to identify those areas that might need a bit more fitting.

Quite simply, rub marks are a guide that should NOT be ignored and I prefer to do my tuning after I run at least 1000 rounds downrange so I'll have some rub marks to guide me.
 
Last edited:
Good info Scooter! I wish you lived closer to me . One of my guns has a rough milled slot where the rebound slide rides and i have been trying to figure out the best way to smooth it. The slide itself is smooth. On the rebound slide itself, I'm not real clear as to which corner you are talking about putting the radius on. Can you expain further?
 
What's being missed here is that at the end of the trigger and rebound slide return the hammer is being moved back by the rebound slide. This is the "hang-up" for trigger return. Look at the 'bumps" on the rebound slide and hammer that move the hammer. Slight reshaping and smoothing here will do more than all the mirror smooth polishing of the rebound slide you care to do. There's an early point of diminishing returns with smoothing/polishing. You do have to be carefull with the reshaping because you get into a timing issue with the sear (that spring loaded thing on the hammer) resetting as the rebound slide/trigger moves forward and the hammer moves back.

My 617 has a 7 lb DA pull with an 11 lb Wolff rebound spring shortened 2 coils. Are sub .2 second splits actually hitting a target (vs seeing how fast you can cycle an empty gun) good enough?
 
Hearsedriver - Scooter is talking about the bottom, left edge of the rebound slide. IOW the transition from the bottom to the side away from the sideplate. The transition from the bottom of the frame to the sideplate should be a sharp 90 degree angle, so you don't need to break that corner. Jerry Kuhnhuasen explains this in his book - the only reason I'm confident enough to answer your question.

Hope that helps.
 
The Kuhnhausen book is good reference material but if you're just wanting to do a "trigger job" Jerry Miculek's "trigger Job" video is better. It's trigger job specific.

I'd like to get Miculek's video some day, but I like to read instructions and study diagrams. Also, I don't have a DVD player in my workshop but I sure have the Kuhnhausen books (Colt & Smith). Guess that makes me an old foggie.
 
For what it's worth, changing the Rebound Spring Weight One Pound will change the SA Trigger Pull APPROXIMATELY One-Quarter Pound--or Four OUNCES--ASSUMING there have been no OTHER Changes made, i.e., changes to Mainspring Tension, etc.

A friend and I figured this out many years ago when we were participating in ISU Centerfire Matches with our S&W Revolvers--Hope this helps. Paulie686.
 
For what it's worth, changing the Rebound Spring Weight One Pound will change the SA Trigger Pull APPROXIMATELY One-Quarter Pound--or Four OUNCES--ASSUMING there have been no OTHER Changes made, i.e., changes to Mainspring Tension, etc.

A friend and I figured this out many years ago when we were participating in ISU Centerfire Matches with our S&W Revolvers--Hope this helps. Paulie686.

Thanks....I do my own trigger group work on Smith revolvers and I've always sorta wondered that ratio might be.
 
Back
Top