A little background on myself. I like mechanical things and understanding how they work and how to make them better if possible. I continue to have interest in the workings of revolvers and semi-auto pistols and am a S&W fan though have owned a few Rugers too.

The Canted Barrel issue is something that keeps coming up and I hope to get a better understanding of the variables and faults it can cause so...............here goes a few questions and requests for a deeper explanation.

A canted barrel will shoot the same as a non-canted barrel. It is the front 'sight' that is in error of alignment to the rear sight........am I correct here? The canting of a barrel does not effect the accuracy of the barrel only the sight picture that is misaligned that causes the inaccuracy?

And if the barrel is slightly canted (lets say it's an acceptable tolerance of cant that we as customers and S&W can live with) having a front sight mounted that has a 'left-right' slight rotation adjustment in it will allow for rear to front dead on square sight picture?

Next issue, there is another thread running that mentions a 'crush factor' on the area of the barrel that is within the frame where as the barrel chamber gets constricted and will cause the bullet entering to be undersized before it hits the lands and grooves? That will certainly effect accuracy and velocity and may certainly cause leading issues too. I would imagine that this too could possibly happen even on a barrel that was not canted and I am sure most of us would have no idea of it without some very accurate measurements internally.

So, how is it that in this modern age day of precision manufacturing that canted barrels can leave the factory, honestly it bothers me. There certainly must be a modern day installation method that can be repeated with accuracy in barrel alignment each and every time! Geeeeesh my daughter worked for a company that sold flower seeds and I mean the tiniest ones you could imagine and there was an electronic eye that they pass by that counts them as the go into a packet!

A simple set of hash marks on top of the barrel would be fine! Who the heck at QC can't see straight from crooked? That simpy isn't acceptable.

Oh wait, I have a better idea, sell me the gun in kit form, bring back the quality craftsman of yesteryear and take it to one to have your revolver assembled with pride

I guess I need to buy a toasted out revolver, and learn to remove and replace a barrel so I can better understand what variables there are.......................I do give enormous credit to those gunsmiths our there and machinists that know this stuff, hopefully someday I may get a chance to shadow one and learn!

Comments or info welcomed.............thanks for any contributions here
Karl

The only canted barrel I've had wasn't on a revolver. I bought a M1A about 25 years ago that was canted basically the barrel had not been treaded in all the way. It did leave the front sight slightly slanted and the rifle would not feed properly because the feed ramp wasn't lined up with the magazine. After a few calls to Springfield Armory they took it back and fixed the problem.

Karl, it IS easy to properly align a barrel on a revolver so that it is not canted - S&W just can't seem to do it every time. There are several methods that could be used to do it and the ultimate test for proper alignment is to simply take the time to look at it to see if it is. I have a feeling that the technicians are simply too rushed to get it right. I mean, look at a video of how the S&W Performance Center guns are built and those techs appear to be in quite a hurry.

Until fairly recently, revolver barrels were installed by hand using an action wrench and an educated, experienced "eyeball" of the person doing the fitting.
In later years the factories began rushing the workers, and using less experienced (cheaper) workers.
The result was canted barrels.

Colt was notorious for canted post-1972 heavy, shrouded barrels on the Detective Special and Cobra.
When S&W was owned by some companies they were basically draining the company by pumping out as many revolvers as possible to reap profits, then dumping the company to another raider.
Quality fell badly and canted barrels were often seen.

Today, barrels on the S&W should not be really possible because of the two piece design with the outer shroud that locks onto a "key" on the frame.
How that happens to get canted is a good question.
The shroud is positioned on the frame key and the inner barrel is torqued in place by a power torque tool.
That shouldn't allow canted barrels but.........

As for constricted barrels, that's a cause of over-torquing the barrel and compressing the area under the frame threads.
Colt seldom had that problem because Colt always held their barrels in place by torquing and were totally used to doing it that way.

S&W used to lightly torque their barrels and secure them with a barrel pin through the frame.
When S&W discontinued the frame pin they began using a higher torque.
Since they were not used to that it was common in the early post-pinned barrel guns to see constricted bores from over tightening by personnel.

Apparently S&W had the same problem with the two piece barrels even though they're torqued by a power tool that should give uniform results.
Some early versions were WAY over torqued and the barrels actually broke off in front of the frame because of the high stress.

I'm not sure what the "fix" is except to design a better shroud key system that gives a more positive alignment and a more uniform torquing process.

In some cases a canted barrel is deliberate.
The Ruger SP-101 as example often has a slightly canted barrel, but shoots to center. It appears they shift the barrel slightly to put the fixed sights on target.

In the end canted barrels and constricted bores are a human labor issue, or an equipment setup issue.
If you have a rushed, lesser experienced worker he may over tighten a barrel or get it off top-dead-center.
If the tooling isn't properly set up and thoroughly tested to insure what it's doing is correct, you get the same problems.

A canted barrel will not shoot straight, and looks stupid. You're mistaking clocked for canted, which looks stupid too. Neither clocked or canted is acceptable, especially at what manufacturers ask for their firearms.

I am sure there are a number of reasons why, but at the end of the day the one ultimately responsible for ANY defect on a gun being shipped is the FINAL INSPECTOR. Obviously, the FINAL INSPECTORS who work at the Factory presently are not very good at what they should be doing!

It seems that the user is the final inspector. If it's wrong they'll fix it. If an irate customer doesn't call back, then it's a good gun.

Over and under clocking of the barrel causes the sights to be off. The have like a +/- 5 degree tolerance on the front sight, which I think is very generous. They have a guy with a padded wrench doing the final torque of the barrel, BY EYE. No index marks on the barrel or frame.

The other problem is not drilling and tapping the hole for the barrel straight. Combine a crooked barrel with an overclocked one and you have a real mess.

Yes, we are all concerned about these attitudes but S&W seems satisfied with their present model of doing business. I believe that if you inspect that ACTUAL gun that you are purchasing and refuse to accept 'rejects' you stand a good chance of getting a good gun.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Thank you! I was using 'canted' when I should have been saying 'clocked'.
So if you had a 'clocked' & 'canted' you would have a 'Smith' & 'Wesson'...............sorry bad joke I really love my S&W's, though I am hesitant on the newer revolvers. My 686 is a dash-3 and my 625 is a dash-4. My Shield 45 has truly amazed me!

Once again, thanks for the terminology lesson, I learned something again...........and that is appreciated!
Karl

...trigger, cylinder, hammer and grips....OK, ship it!"

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

What really bothers me is that one of the premier gun manufacturers for well over a hundred and fifty years can't screw a barrel on straight. We don't have that level of craftsmanship in the US any more.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

rwsmith you hit the nail on the head. Trump wants to bring manufacturing back to the U.S.. Now here will be the American workers opportunity to shine. I hope we step up to the challenge, auto, clothing, electronic and the firearm industry.

But I fear that will bode ill for a $2000 Model 10.

Larry

I bought a new M60 a few years ago.

Didn't notice until I got home that the barrel was overclocked a few drgrees.

Sent it to smith and got it back a week later with the barrel "adjusted".

My only experience has been with a new 686 6" bought by a friends as his 1st wheel gun. With the rear sight cranked all the way to the right it would group 8 to 10" from the bulls eye at 25 yards! With more than one experienced hand gunner shooting it. To there credit S&W did replace the gun, but how did it make it out the door in the first place? The new owner almost swore off revolvers over the poor quality control issues.

I've seen a M67 that had the barrel pointing off to the left. With the rear sight all the way left it still shot far left of that. Turns out the frame was threaded crooked. If you looked at it from the top down you could see that the barrel was at an angle to the frame.

Well then I would probably opt for the Korth LOL

Karl

Several comments here, with the caution that I'm speaking of the one piece barrels.

1. If the front sight is 'clocked' close enough for the rear sights to bring POA/POI to the same place, that's really all you need.

2. The adjustable sight guns did have alignment marks: the ribs on barrel & frame.

3. If you haven't tried to do so, hitting that mark isn't as easy as you might think, even with a good dab of moly grease on threads, frame & barrel shoulder. It's all too easy to go from a tad short to a tad over. You're not supposed to perform do overs.

4. Those who are agrieved by minor appearance flaws should take a look at the price difference between production guns and custom guns. Please recall that S&W gets about 33% of MSRP when they sell the product to a distributor.

5. You did do a detailed receipt inspection prior to purchase, right? If not, this is a learning experience. It's why we take new cars for test drives.

Regarding #5, I did not experience a canted or clocked barrel, just wishing to learn more about it. I am sure there are many folks that purchase their guns online and likely don't do an inspection at delivery nor do they expect that they should have to do it nor are they informed on how to do it.
Regarding cars, if there is an immediate defect on a new car, you have an immediate dealer there to correct the problem, it's not like you have to send your car back to the factory that built it and wait 6 weeks to get it back.................whole different scenario...........

#1 I agree, I am addressing ones that are 'out of acceptance specs'.
#2 my guns are smooth on frame and ribbed ahead on barrel only.
#3 No I have not tried to do so, I would like to learn to do so However if it were my full time job I would certainly expect it to be done properly and if I messed up I would expect the QC guy to catch it and have it properly fixed before I sent it to a customer!
#4 Accepting minor flaws is all in the eye of the beholder, we each have different levels of acceptance, some can acceptance cosmetic flaws and not mechanical and others perhaps vice versa. I understand nothing is perfect in production run items and custom guns are a luxury for most of us.

Thank you for your comments
Karl

....manufacturers here have jobs, but not people with the technical skills to fill them.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

....when you could buy a 686 for $700 and we thought that was a lot of money.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Why should anyone accept a new item that is not 100%?

On a recent trip I stopped by a Cabelas store in that city.

I bought some Sig Sauer 357 Rem Magnum cases @ $16/100 and looked for S&B SPP on sale but they were full price.I load/shoot magnum cases in my 44mag and 357mag revolvers.

I also bought 1lb of 2400,1lb of Unique and 1lb of BE although I really didn't need them.

I asked to see a 2.75" Model 69 if they had one.There was 1 in stock in the back.The clerk cut open a seal on the blue plastic box,checked if it was empty and handed it to me.
Easily visible were some marks in the bead finish and a slightly canted barrel.When I refused the purchase of the revolver the clerk stated Smith would fix it for free!

I'm not a fan of IL and MIM but I do like the L frame and the 44mag caliber.If it was IMO 100% it would have left with me with a grabagun price match.

__________________
NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN

Karl, the issue is that you're torquing the frame with a wrench and slowly applying pressure to achieve alignment. The barrel may come to a halt slightly short of proper alignment. When you every so slowly add more pressure, it may not move in a smooth increment, but jump ahead, past proper alignment. This is where a lot of the problems stems from.

Even with a generous application of grease and skill, sometimes things just don't work out how you'd like. 'Tis the nature of the process. When I built custom guns, I was using specialized tools I made myself to stabilize the frame boss and barrel. I spent a whole lot more time on fitting than the guys at any production factory get allotted. In some cases, I fit the barrel to the frame and then did the finish machining on the barrel (made rib, fit locking bolt etc.). That's not feasible for mass production.

No, things weren't always better in ye dayes of olde. I saw lots of handguns of various makes that shouldn't have made it past any inspector.

I could not understand how they could take a threaded barrel that already had the barrel cut for the front sight get the barrel to tighten up at the correct point that the front sight was aligned with the frame.
It's like putting a 90 on a pipe and then threading the pipe into another pipe and still having the 90 pointing straight down. Quite often it is hard to get the thread to lock tight with the 90 positioned correctly.

Now with a gun you are talking possibly way less than 1/64 to play with and still have a tight fitted barrel or its very visible canted or the sight is noticeably off . A gun smith or machinist I am not. Because of all the reports of canted barrels on new guns that is the first thing I check for on a new revolver.

I purchased a new no lock 340PD last month and VERY carefully checked not only the barrel alignment, but everything else. Thankfully it was in surperb condition but it is a shame that things have slipped to this degree.

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

...there are plus or minus tolerances in machined parts and torque specs...if all those tolerances happen by chance to fall all in one direction...you get a canted barrel...

__________________
A Country Boy Can Survive

Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen a two piece barrel that was misaligned?

Excellent explanation and expansion on the subject, thank you. I guess the Dan Wesson concept for barrel fit is one of the best then to eliminate those variables?
I can visualize what you are speaking of when tightening/torqueing a threaded bolt/pipe/barrel etc. Seems there would be a way to have shims to adjust tolerances for final fit, again though it would take more time and a higher skilled person to do this.
Thanks for your info and sharing of past expertise and attention to detail when you did your barrel fitting.
Karl

It doesn't take me but just a couple of minutes to align the flash suppressor on my AR-15 using shims. And that's on a match grade AR-15, as I am a service rifle competitor. Why the heck Smith & Wesson can't do something similar is beyond me.

They don't need shims. It's already a (too) tight "crush" fit. They just need to turn it to the right spot. I have jaws for the mill vise that hold the barrel vertical, then turn it so the grip frame is square to the mill table with a machinist square. It's right on every time. I don't see why S&W can't do the same thing. It takes about 30 - 45 seconds to get it perfect.

That's probably 29 to 45 seconds too long, judging from the last video I saw of their work in their Performance Center. Those folks were in quite a hurry!

I've never seen how it's done at the factory. Things apparently aren't quite as rushed in my personal Performance Center.

Watch this video about the building of the Pro Series revolvers:

I don't think Jerry actually works on the floor. Most likely management who might have worked on the floor at one time. Just look at his clothing vs the workers in the background. One of the not so neatly dressed guys wearing an apron and making 1/4 ofr Jerry's salary is probably the best smith of the lot.

I have had QC experts, engineers and supervision come around when I am working. Sometimes it is kinda funny.

None of mine have been. Can't say that for my one-piece barrels though.

With their indexing notches on the shroud & frame, I don't see how there could be enough play for it to be off significantly.

.

__________________
Waiting for the break of day