Is it possible that S&W forgot to crown my CS45 barrel?

[Sod]

I posted this in the Auto pistol section of the forum, but this may be a better spot for this discussion.

Sorry for the double post.

I recently purchased a NIB CS45 and CS9 after reading so many good things about them.
I took them both to the range for the first time yesterday. I could not have been more disappointed
in the CS45. It is the most inaccurate pistol I have ever fired. The CS9 is fine very accurate but even
at 10 yards I could not hit an 8" Shoot N see target in the black with the 45 and the shots were
randomly bad, no identifiable pattern at all, some high, low, left right, WOW.
I shot 50 rounds of Blazer brass and 100 rounds WWB. When I got home and started inspecting the
pistols I noticed a burr on the muzzle of the 45 and minus the burr the muzzle was flat not concave like
the 9mm barrel. So I have two questions
#1 is this normal and
#2 could this have such a dramatic effect on a pistols accuracy.
I am not the worlds best shot but I am a lot better than this pistol allowed.
I took some pictures to try to show the burr, they aren't great but I think you will get the idea.
Thanks for your help, Mike

[Gutpile Charlie]

I've never shot one, yet even held one, but if that barrel has been crowned....then I'll eat it.

I think that is a MAJOR manufacturing blunder!

No wonder it won't hit the broad side of a barn.

[Sod]

I sent S&W customer service a copy of the pictures via email and asked what they thought. I will let you know how they respond.
Mike

[Alk8944]

Just for clarity, the "Crown" is defined as the muzzle face of the barrel, so, no, it isn't possible they didn't crown it.

What obviously is the case is they did not finish the crown.

Instead of E-mail, which may never be answered, call Customer Service at 800-331-0852 and describe the situation to them. Since the new generations guns barrels are virtual drop-in parts they may simply send you a new barrel saving you a lot of time and aggravation.

With most major manufacturers, especially shooting related ones, do the easy thing first, call them if you have a problem and it will probably be handled in a much more efficient manner than you could ever imagine.

And, FWIW, this probably isn't the reason the gun shoots as poorly as you describe since the burr does not appear to extend into the bore but rather forward from it.

[bountyhunter]

Originally Posted by Gutpile Charlie

I've never shot one, yet even held one, but if that barrel has been crowned....then I'll eat it.

I think that is a MAJOR manufacturing blunder!

No wonder it won't hit the broad side of a barn.

+1. That's the first one I have ever seen, but they did forget to crown the bore of the barrel. That will REALLY screw up the accuracy.

[bountyhunter]

Originally Posted by Alk8944

Just for clarity, the "Crown" is defined as the muzzle face of the barrel, so, no, it isn't possible they didn't crown it.

What obviously is the case is they did not finish the crown.

In gunsmithing, "crowning" usually is understood to mean finishing the muzzle end of the barrel which includes putting an internal taper in the end of the bore, and there is a specific tapered cutter to do it. So, that barrel was never crowned. It looks like they just ran the cutter through the rifling and sent it out.

[Alk8944]

Originally Posted by bountyhunter

In gunsmithing, "crowning" usually is understood to mean finishing the muzzle end of the barrel which includes putting an internal taper in the end of the bore, and there is a specific tapered cutter to do it. So, that barrel was never crowned. It looks like they just ran the cutter through the rifling and sent it out.

bountyhunter,

Just for the record, and as a school trained and for years practicing gunsmith, I am perfectly well aware of what the "common interpretation" of "Crowning" is, it just happens to be teccnically incorrect.

For example, look at almost any antique Winchesterlever action, any model. The muzzles were cut flat with just enough additional work being done to both the periphery and end of the bore so there wasn't a sharp edge or burr. Other makers finished their muzzles in similar fashion. What people now refer to as a "crown" did not come into nearly universal use until after WWII or so. Since then several general types of finishing have been applied to firearms muzzles and are referred to by such terms as "sporter crown", "target crown", "recessed crown", and some others. The old method then came to be referred to as a "flat crown". Notice all have modifiers which describe the type of crown.

Be sure of your subject before trying to correct someone else.

[Zilmo]

As a retired aerospace machinist, I've gotta say that the muzzle looks like ****.

[Sod]

S&W is sending me a shipping label so they can clean up the barrel and test it for accuracy. I will let you know when I get it back.
Thanks, Mike

[samIam]

My .02 cents. Muzzle end was Unfinished.Yes the burr looks like it was sticking out,rather than in.But if the burr was in towards center of bore to start with,what do you think firing a 150 rounds through it would do?

[Sod]

Originally Posted by samIam

My .02 cents. Muzzle end was Unfinished.Yes the burr looks like it was sticking out,rather than in.But if the burr was in towards center of bore to start with,what do you think firing a 150 rounds through it would do?

That is an excellent point, that I had not even considered. I never noticed the burr until after firing the pistol. It could have started out in side the muzzle and I may have shot it into it's current position?

[Aussie44]

Originally Posted by Alk8944

bountyhunter,Be sure of your subject before trying to correct someone else.

Whether it's a flat crown or a 99 deg crown..It's a crown.If you read your statement you agree that even the antique Winchester lever actions were finished so there was no burr left.By the way that barrel is not crowned.

Ken

[Muley Gil]

Sod,

When I was in Afghanistan training their police, one of the Afghan police officer instructors was having trouble hitting the target, with the hits being keyholes. Upon examining his S&W 9mm Sigma, it was obvious that the factory made a boo-boo, as there was only one faint land in the barrel.

Sooo, anything is possible.

[500 Magnum Nut]

No wonder it's not accurate. That barrel is a reject. There is no type of "crown" on that one.

[500 Magnum Nut]

Originally Posted by Alk8944

And, FWIW, this probably isn't the reason the gun shoots as poorly as you describe since the burr does not appear to extend into the bore but rather forward from it.

What? This is the reason it shoots like it does. The gases leaving the barrel are not uniform around the base of the bullet.

There isn't a bench rest shooter in this country that would agree with you!

[oldRoger]

I just put a new S&W barrel in a 1076, that is certainly not typical of a S&W barrel, what ever you want to call it.
I have a new Barsto barrel in a P220, also finished. Schuemann would be deeply insulted if you said it came from his shop.
There is strong agreement that the crown (to use the vernacular) is very important to the accuracy of the barrel, and that one ain't good..

[Sod]

Looks like I will have to call S&W again today. It has been two weeks since they told me that they would send me out a shipping label.
Nothing yet!

Seems, I was caught on the wrong side of their two week shutdown. The label supposedly is on it's way.

Label received.
Ship date Aug 21, 2009

[Sod]

I got a letter in the mail from S&W today 1 week from shipping my pistol back to them.

It just states that they received it and that most repairs take two to three weeks and to give them a call if I have any questions.

I will report back when it arrives.
Mike