Getting ready to buy myself a duty class 9mm automatic. Looking for the most accurate one and find myself leaning toward a Sig P226 since I tend to see these the most. What is the general consensus on this-looking for some opinions.

Hard to beat the accuracy of the P226 in 9mm. I have shot one, and it was everything I heard; however, I wanted something that was a little smaller for concealed carry, and chose a P239 in .40 cal for my EDC. The P226 is a fine choice in a full size semi-auto. If you haven't done so, I would suggest that you go to a range that rents handguns, and shoot it for comparison with other popular full size nines. Have fun choosing!

The "most accurate gun", any style, any caliber, is the one that you have put several thousand rounds through.

Every gun is capable of more accuracy than you are.

If someone else is a "better shot" than you are, they are a better shot with their gun, your gun, any gun, than you are.

For any instance of the word "gun" above, substitute "Guitar", "Bowling Ball", "paintbrush" or any other tool and the concepts are still true.


Sgt Lumpy

Thanks for the replies so far. I don't think I totally agree with the fact that most guns are capable of more accuracy than I am capable of. I am a master class in PPC but admittedly not near the top by any means so don't get me wrong. I can put 5-6 rounds into an inch in the sitting position at 25 yards(my favourite position to do sight in checks and new load evaluation's) with my open class revolver but could never do that with a Glock as that they are not capable of it. Basically I guess my question is what are the DM's and GM's using for the most part in this class.

ALL guns are capable of more accuracy than you are.

Clamp ANY gun into a bench rest and fire a group. Now take it out of the rest and you fire it. The bench rest wins every time, every gun.

ALL guns are capable of more accuracy than you are.


Sgt Lumpy

Are you looking for a duty gun or a target/competition gun? Pinpoint accuracy is not a requirement in a duty gun, and according to the experts given the stress and biological changes involved in a life or death gun fight, some fine motor skills decrease along with your accuracy. For a duty gun I would put reliability ahead of pinpoint accuracy.

I assume you are looking for accuracy first, not "what is an accurate carry gun"... If you are able to shoot 1 inch groups at 25 yards from the sitting position with your revolvers, then you will be disappointed with the accuracy of almost any service grade semi-auto pistol. Most will do between about 2 and 4 inches, from a rest.

The most accurate factory stock 9mm I have shot is an older forged frame Browning HP - Maybe an inch at 25 yards, from the bench, sometimes..

I would look at a 1911 gun from someone like Baer or Wilson, in 9mm. Expensive, but hand fit, and about as accurate as you will find in a duty type holster gun. Both makers offer 1 1/2 at 50 yard gaurentes on certain models.

If the 226 is really your desire, I am sure there are gunsmiths out there who can perform similar magic on them as well. 1 inch at 25 yards is a lot to expect from any out of the box service grade auto...

Larry

Check out what the AMU at Ft. Benning has done with Beretta M9s.
They are shooting as well as the top 1911 comp guns in service pistol.
There are civilian 'smiths now building them, too:
Sams Custom Gunworks.

__________________
-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

Check out the PC DPA 5906s........ w/ the PC bushing these are a cut above the average

On the Beretta's there is a guy (WAL) over on the Beretta Forum that makes the bushings..... no personal experience ....... but always good feed back there.

Yes but some guns in the hand can out shoot others in the clamp. Some designs and the tolerances on some guns make them inherently more accurate.

Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.

I had the same "shooter shock" that you are likely to get when you compare the accuracy of, say a K38 to a Model 5906 with adjustable sights.

While 1 inch at 25 yards is much more common from a stable position with the K38 (or almost any S&W revolver), the same rested position will give you, at best, 3 to 4 inch groups at 25 yards with almost any "duty auto."

Glocks have such thick sights that it is nearly impossible to get "target grade accuracy" out of them unless you either use a paper target with a bigger bull to suit that fat front sight, or you replace the sights with sights that are are not as unfriendly to classic target shooting, which is not the purpose of that class of firearm. When so modified, it is actually surprising what a Glock is really capable of doing.

That said, all of the current crop of "combat pistols" are shoddy in the accuracy department (when compared to target grade firearms), whether you are talking about the Beretta M9, the Glock 17, the Ruger SR9, the S&W M&P, the Springfield XDM or whatever.

HKs are quite accurate and the HK USP and the HK45 are both surprisingly good with the issue sights.

That said, if accuracy is the most important consideration, get a 1911 or 952 from the S&W Performance Center, a 1911 from the Springfield Custom Shop (not a standard one sent back, but an actual one built and machined in the Springfield Custom Shop) or a Les Baer 1911. The Baer is so tightly fitted that administrative handling in the usual manner is nearly impossible, so be prepared to change the way you check the chamber for loaded condition, etc., else you will find yourself ejecting the round clear across the room when the action finally breaks open, if your hand hasn't slipped already causing either an abrasion or, worse yet, drawn blood.

None of those really accurate choices are exactly what anyone wants for duty, however. You will simply have to get over the shock of ****** groups with a service auto. Remember, group size is not what you want in a combat scenario. At Gunsite, if your groups are too small, you get called out for not going fast enough - target shooting instead of combat shooting. That said, accurate guns are better, all other things being equal.

P7M8 is one of the most accurate carry weapon ever made. The fixed barrel and gas system is absolutely amazing.

Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.

If accuracy is your first concern, the next question is how much do you want to spend. There are some good 9mm 1911s out there, including from S&W. But my first choice would be a Hi Power, which I'd send off to Cylinder & Slide for as much work as my pocketbook could afford.

The most accurate "Service Pistol" I have ever fired is the Walther P88



The 4 different examples I have had the pleasure of taking to the firing line were all exceptional performers and out grouped every other production 9MM I have ever handled. (I added Nills to mine)

Even as we extend our look into the various Master Shops. Performance Centers and Custom Shops of he various manufacturers, the P88 is still quite impressive.

Now I know that on it's price alone many folks rule it out as a "Service Pistol" but that is what it was designed to be.

The CZ 75 B is a very accurate, duty size 9mm.

"Best gun" opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has one, and they're all different. For me, I've recently come to love the simplicity, accuracy, and ease-of-carry of my M&P 9. I've also owned a Beretta and a Beretta-clone Taurus - both were good guns, but I like my M&P best of all (no thumb safety to remember to flip!!!). I've never owned/fired a Sig; but friends who have one think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

I would welcome your demonstration of that.


Sgt Lumpy

SS, when you say duty class what do you mean , for PPC, stock auto, the S/W IDPA 5906 were long time winners, when 5" plus guns were allowed most went to some make of 1911 in 9mm, tightened up to shoot less than one inch at 25 yards.Mostly because of the added sight radius and easier to shoot trigger.
The P/C Smiths shot 1" or less out of the box, and if you trained with the D/A-S/A type gun it was no problem.
Both types of guns have shot many clean scores.
If you could find one of the P/C IDPA model guns at a decent price I would get it... Good luck Bob

Mr Lumpy ...
You can put your favorite Hi Point in a clamp and I'll bring my 41.
I have a feeling not all guns in a rest are more accurate than a gun in the hand.

I gotta agree with this from my own experience. In MY HANDS (not a clamp or anything else), my P7 PSP is the most accurate nine I've owned.

Actually I take that back, my S&W model 547 is more accurate but I assume we aren't talking revolvers.

As always...YMMV

The link to your video demonstration didn't seem to work for me.


Sgt Lumpy

Go ahead and post a picture of your hi point group and I'll put up one from my 41
It will be my pleasure to shut your yapper.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.

If you want a very accurate duty type pistol for competition, the one that has been proven to have winning bulls eye match grade accuracy in actual matches would be the Beretta M9, or it's civilian equivalent. It is also a pistol that is actually a duty pistol for various police departments.

I don't know what the top competitors are shooting.

Training goes a long way; always has. But platform is also important; always has been.

It seems that every major brand has a gunsmith who can make it accurate.

Off my grumpy soapbox.

__________________
July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

Top accuracy costs, and it can be had in a reliable pistol. I still like Hi Powers and my MKIII 9mm does better in my hands than the P series Sigs I've shot. FWIW

__________________
July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

I was hoping that an adult discussion of the topic could take place. You appear to be discounting that concept. Apparently "My yapper" is a little too much of a challenge for you.

Simply - You can't outshoot any gun. Period. You apparently want to believe you can but you aren't willing to prove it to yourself or anyone else. Asking me to post a "picture of my hi point group" is not relevant in the least to your wild claim of being better than bench rest accuracy.

If you're the "Human Ransom Rest" then geez, let's see some videos of this miracle. You could make a fortune and be in the GuinBook of world records.

Or not.


Sgt Lumpy

Private Lumpy,
Just to be clear you are saying that any guns shot from a ransom rest will group better than even the finest target pistol shot by hand?

I'm sorry that you blame you inherent misunderstanding of pistols on me.

If all guns could shoot sub 1" groups at 25 yards why would anyone spend big money on custom guns?

The only plus side is you have made your lack of real world knowledge abundantly clear.

Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.

Sureshot66, here's my .02...
I've owned and shot a lot of pistols & revolvers over the years, and have friends who have competed longer than I've been an adult.
I've found the Sig 9mms are the most accurate in MY hands...your results may vary. As I'm sure you're aware, handgun ergonomics is a very personal experience. The Sig SA trigger combined with grip angle, etc works for me. 1911s, HPs, 92s are all fine guns, but but for me.
Grab your friends and their semi autos & shoot em all. Then you'll have the answer!

Sent from somewhere between the Ohio territory & the neutral zone.

I guess I should clarify a bit more of what I am looking for here and sorry for any confusion. Duty class(not Distinguished) in PPC has to be a department issue automatic which would exclude the PPC 9's or any other custom gun or work being done to one. So we are looking at Sig's, Beretta's, Glock, S+W and also some CZ's etc. I am looking for the one with the most accuracy stock and the rest has to be up to me. As for Sgt Lumpy, I understand your point of view-I believe all he is saying is that for any gun that is mounted in a Ransom rest, that would be the best accuracy attainable from that particular gun and shooting it free hand would not be able to do as well-I misunderstood his reply in the beginning.. I think I am leaning more towards a Sig since I believe the overall quality is there-thought's??

P7M8s have been issue guns to several US departments. I believe NJ SP and I know the Port of Seattle PD were issued P7s

Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.

You won't be disappointed with a Sig, but I'd still take Ohsheepdog's advice and shoot a few different pistols to see which YOU prefer!

If you like the 226 then I suggest you look at a Mk25. It's a SIG 226 brought up to Navy issue standards and has among other things a chrome lined barrel which will obviate a lot of wear. Add a SRT (short reset trigger kit) and you will get as good a single and double action trigger with 1911 type reset making it faster shot to shot on the line and is allowed in duty competition as many SIG's have that issued or can be ordered with the upgrade. It's fairly accurate and mine will do 2" at 25 yards on demand with a couple of different types of ammo, though not all. The HK's are a bit more accurate but they lack the trigger of the Sig's and it's hard to bring them up to speed. I've got 5 Sig's in 3 different calibers and 4 HK's in 3 calibers. Overall I prefer the Sigs. I have always had a dislike for Glocks and Beretta's and have owned 2 CZ75's which I liked but found to be very fragile. I had to import the CZ's myself on personal permits since at the time no one was bringing them into the country...so they were early ones.

Sureshot, Sig also makes several SAO 226 & 220 models. They are very accurate with great factory triggers. It sounds like they might qualify for your purposes. I currently use DA/SA 226 9mm for 3-gun & it practically shoots itself. My next handgun will be a SAO 226...

some of the dumb azz mistakes I made in my life involve this gun. (meaning I sold it)

this image was sometime between 2003-2005 when I carried this gun on duty for a short while while my CQB went back to the PC for repair.

this was a police qual course (50 rounds) from up close out to 25 yds. me and another guy dared each other to keep all rounds behind a 8X12 sheet of paper. Even though 3 were just out of the 10 ring, the qual scoring ring was the outline of the coke bottle. This did include some timed stages.

I did not have much trigger time behind this gun however it was one of the smoothest PC I ever owned. Sights were blocky Meprolight night sights which do not lend themselves to best accuracy at 25 yds.

Best DA first shot duty Nina IMHO…if this is what you mean by duty class.

__________________
if you're gonna be a bear...

Glock Model 17L 9mm

sureshot66
FROM: POST 4 YOU NOW HAVE MY ATTENTION. THE S&W PC AUTOS ARE REALLY GOOD. I'VE SHOT THOSE AND GOTTEN SOME GOOD SCORES.

MY BEST IN THE DUTY (PPC) MATCH WAS A 480-41X FOR 3RD OVERALL AT THE N.P.S.C.IN 2007. MY PARTNER AND I WON THE 2 MAN SERVICE AUTO TEAM THAT YEAR ALSO. BUT I SHOT THOSE SCORES WITH A ROCK RIVER ARMS 9MM , 1911.

SW CQB 45 HAS SOME MORE PROOF THAT THEY DO WORK.

JP

+ 1 for this! The P-88 has a huge grip, but the accuracy is freakin' amazing. I bought mine for $1K with the box and 8 factory mags.

IMHO, nothing can beat a 100% German-made Walther P99 in 9MM for sheer accuracy. Nothing.

Thanks for all the input guys. I know one auto that I had tried and really liked was a Smith 5946(DAO). It was a issue gun to my RCMP buddy-really liked that trigger but these guns in Canada are very rare in Civilian circles. Probably going end up with a Sig 226 of some sort I am thinking.

You are missing the point. Put your 41 in a clamp and shoot a group. Remove your 41 and try to fire the same group - not happening. Ditto for the Hi Point - it will shoot a better group from a clamp than from a human hand. The clamp takes the human element out of the equation.

What part of this is confusing? Human vs bench rest with the same gun - rest wins every time.

Hey Mark,
I think the two biggest factors to consider are how well does the gun fit you, and how much trigger time can you afford!

I have shot several Duty Match scores north of 1490-100X with my Sig 220 but have still not bested my 1495-125x shot with a
Glock 21.

Hope this helps. See you at the Firing Line!

Although I've never used the E2 grip, some folks really think highly of the improved ergonomics available with some of the popular Sig models. You might want to see if you can try one out before you make your final decision.

P226 E2

It's a good thing feelings don't influence a bullet other then through the movements of a hand. And clamps have no feelings.

The Walther look interesting... have you shot a Sig 210? I shot one years ago and was very impressed.

Not quite. I'm not a devotee of the Ransom Rest, but I've been advised that the poly framed guns can "present issues" when fired fired in a rest. It seems they squirm about. I'll conceed the difference may be slight and Ransom or others may have solved the problem