Hello and hopefully this is the best place to post this. I just shot my first Bullseye competition (1800 aggregate 60 each, odd but glad it was a bit shorter, my arm was killing me!) and am using a Ruger Mark III, a 686 6" and a 625JM 4". I'm considering going to the 617 for the .22 portion, though my ruger is REALLY, REALLY accurate. Do any of you shoot 100% revolver in these competitions? Do you have any advice? I know some guys recommended the K-38 and K-22 (I think those are the numbers) over the newer guns, but I already own the newer guns. Do any of you feel the older ones would be more accurate? I actually already bought the 617 as well, just waiting for it to arrive. I know I might be at a slight disadvantage with all revolvers, but I feel like there have been guys pretty successful in the past with revolvers, so why can't I be as well if I can get enough practice in? Also, I just enjoy shooting the revolvers much more than any of my semi-autos.

I'm shooting all stock iron sights. I don't plan on using a red dot until I feel that I have done a good job on my iron sights and that is most likely many years away. I am thinking of switching my 686 red ramp sight to a gold bead site like my 625 because I seem to acquire the target a little quicker with the gold bead or just flat black target site than with the ramp.

Do any of you guys have any advice on shooting the entire bullseye with revolvers? Do you feel any reason why the new revolvers would be any less accurate than the older ones? Also, I know I could post this part in the reloading section, but for my equipment, do any of you have reloading info that you have used successfully for shooting bullseye. Once my 617 comes in, I'll be getting the dillon 650 and reload for my 38 and 45acp. I'm hoping to have the reloader by late August at the very latest. Thank you for any advice or help you can give. I've been shooting off and on for most of my life (more off than on) but in the past year I have gotten much more serious. Feel free to offer any advice that might seem like common sense. Pretend I'm totally ignorant because I don't want to miss any simple stuff I "should" know but may have failed to learn somehow.


Curtis

Hey Curis, I shoot Bullseye with a revolver for center fire and 22, I use a 617 and a 32. If you use a 617 you will have just as much fun and in a 38 I would use the 686 PP. Need to learn to shoot double action on everything, even the slow fire. Scores will go up in a month or two, just stay with it and enjoy.

My first question would be about your arm hurting. What do you think is aggravating your arm? Would it still hurt if you were shooting a 45 auto with soft loads? Is cocking the hammer during timed and rapid making it hurt or are you shooting sorta hot "factory" loads.

Thanks man. Yes, everything is in double action right now. I've been shooting my 686 for about 7 months now and 99% of that has been DA. I enjoyed shooting it and hopefully can improve a little on the next one. I made a few major errors on this one that I hope will not make on the next. Thanks for the help.

Curtis

PS-by the way, what are you shooting for your .22 portion if you don't mind me asking. That was the only portion I was decent at. I shot a 535 12x out of 600. My centerfires were a little worse. I was happy with my .22 portion though. I know they'll all get better as long as I can consistently get to the range and put the time in.

I should have phrased what I did better. I just meant my arm was sore from holding the gun up unsupported. I have done most of my shooting offhand, but supported AND I usually take my time and sometimes I'm lucky to get off 100 rounds in a few hours. Luckily, the only thing that bothered me in the least was my .45 ammo. It was 230 grain factory. I'm pretty sure when I go to reloading, i can go a little smaller on the bullet and lighter in the powder and get a nicer kicking gun, but even shooting that factory ammo, I was fine. Also, I just received my .45 less than a week ago. I had shot about 30 rounds through it on Friday. Then on Sunday, I actually went out to watch bullseye and they talked me into shooting it since I brought all my guns.

My son is on the local Junior Pistol Team.
They are shooting a load with a 200 grain LSWC and enough Bullseye to drive it at around 750 fps in their Springfield target pistols.
Works fine even at 50 yards.
So, I think you can easily go lighter with your .45 reloads.

My son is talking about shooting the revolver match at Perry one of these years but hasn't had enough practice with a wheelgun yet.

I compete in Bullseye using all-revolvers. Left to right:

.45: S&W 625-6, 5" barrel, 1" 4MOA UltraDot, Ahrends "Tactical" grips (Goncalo Alves wood), forged Combat .312" trigger
Centerfire: S&W 686-5+, 6" barrel, 4MOA UltraDot, Ahrends "Tactical" grips (Goncalo Alves wood), forged Combat .312" trigger
.22: S&W 617-4, 6" barrel, 4MOA UltraDot, Ahrends "Tactical" grips (Goncalo Alves wood), forged Combat .312" trigger
Distinguished Revolver: S&W 19-3, 6" barrel, Patridge sights, Ahrends "Tactical" grips (Cocobolo wood), stock Service .265" trigger

I compete in the full 2700 matches, plus the Distinguished Revolver matches (the National Match Course, shot with factory/commercially reloaded 158gr LRN/LSWC .38SPL ammo) when I can, as well as a .22-only 600-point weekly Bullseye league. I'm still improving, though I usually shoot solid "Expert" scores in the 2700 and DR matches, and currently barely tick-over the "Master" scores for my Bullseye League, with .22 being my best scores and .45 being my worst.

Re: Fatigue:
Yes, the guns I use are very heavy, even heavier with the mounts and red-dot sights. I practice a lot, however--5 or 6 days a week (not on Tuesdays when my local range is closed)--so my arm and body have grown accustomed to the weight.

Re: Reloading:
I'd say to get a single-stage press and go slow until you really figure out what you're doing. I use an RCBS Rock Chucker single-stage, carefully loading up 100 rounds at a time (which is plenty for practice the next day). One day I will have a progressive press to churn out the ammo, but that day will probably be when the current shortage on primers lifts and I'll always be able to have 10,000 primers on-hand...

My loads for centerfire (.38) are 2.8gr of AA#2 Improved behind a 148gr hollow-base wadcutter, and 3.1gr of W231 behind the same bullet. Both loads seem to have the same ballistics. The AA#2 Improved seems to burn a little more thoroughly than W231, however, and seems to behave a bit like the classic Bullseye powder (i.e. it's a faster powder than W231). With either load, I only need to adjust my red-dot downward by four or five clicks when going from the long- to short-line.

I'm currently experimenting with .45 loads, but my current favorite is 6.8gr AA#5 behind a 185gr jacketted semi-wadcutter. It has a good, light-ish recoil (not nearly as heavy as 230-grain loads), but seems to fly pretty flat only requiring four or five clicks of downward elevation adjustment in my red-dots going from the long- to short-line. Another load I used with good success is 3.7gr of W231 behind a 185gr lead semi-wadcutter, but that load was very light, requiring a very consistent follow-through from me, and needing 8 or 9 clicks of adjustment.

Re: Technique:
I shoot single-action the whole way, even through the timed- and rapid-fire stages. I've spent a lot of time integrating cocking the hammer into the shot-recovery process: as soon as the muzzle flips up in recoil, let my trigger finger loose, let my thumb loose, reach up with the thumb, start cocking the hammer while bringing the sights back down, finish cocking (sights are now pointed low), put the thumb back in place while bringing the sights back up, re-settle the trigger finger on the trigger while aligning the sights for the next shot. It all happens in a fraction of a second, and all that's really going through my mind during the whole string is "....1....2....3....4....5".

I also change my grip between the long-line and the short-line: at 50 yards my grip is as high as I can get, which helps in controlling follow-through, while at 25 yards my grip is 1/4" to 3/8" lower to allow my thumb to more easily cock the hammer without having to shift my whole grip. This slightly changes how the gun recoils, yes, but the point-of-impact changes between 50 and 25 yards anyways.

We shoot on a Tuesday eveing and it is only 300 points for the 22 and 300 for the center fire. In the 22 I will run from 255 to 285, shot a 298 a number of times but no clean. The 32 Long that I shoot I run from 260 to 290 and I have clean a few time. Having this leg fixed it is hard to get those scores right now, but working on it. Here is my 10/32 that I built.

Congradulations, Bullseye is by far my favorite revolver competition. Lots of fun and a huge challenge. I personally switch back and forth from a K-22, K-32 and K-38 to a Model 52 for centerfire and model 41 for rimfire over the years. I do about the same with both, so you can surely do it with your 686.
You can blacken the sights on that 686 to get a better sight picture with that front sight. Outers makes a sight black spray that will make it dull black and can be wiped right off after.

I don't think the older revolvers are anymore accurate than the new ones. You have to do al ot of practice with either to get good but both should work fine. I prefer the older revolvers but wouldn't hessitate to use one of the modern target guns to shoot with.
You'll also find that you can do a lot better with single action than double action. The secret is to get the timing for timed fire and rapid fire down. The best way to do this is to make a recording of the range commands with actual times and practice dry firing to this.

Also, lifting weights, working the biceps, triceps and shoulders or whole upper body is a huge help. If you don't have any weights availible, you can do pull ups and pushups which are great upper body exercises.

The standard load for Bullseye with 38 Special is 2.7 grs of Bullseye under a 148 gr wadcutter.
Regards. Moosedog

Everyone, thank you so much or the great info! I'll check out some of you guys reloading advice when I get one and I'll keep working hard on the revolvers. I'll have to really work on the SA and cocking the gun as that seems to be a thing to practice until it becomes more like muscle memory. I really appreciate all the help and positive comments! Thanks guys!


Curtis

This site has lots of bullseye info:

The Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol

Here is a bullseye forum site:

http://www.lava.net/~perrone/bullseye/

Looking at the scores you've posted in Bullseye, I assume your a member or close to being a member of the elitest 2700 club? Very good scores.
Steve

__________________
NRA Life Member

I haven't been shooting those scores right now, had a replacement of a replacement hip done almost a year ago and it has been a rough row to hoe. Hard to get standing still without some movement which kicks my butt.

Your guns look great and I think I've seen you on another site or two online. How do you like your grips compared to stock and why did you switch and choose those. I'm currently using the Hogue stock grip on all the guns right now. The wood on my 625JM doesn't seem to bother me as my hands don't really get sweaty when shooting and they would if they were going to (I'm in Texas and it's easily over 100 and was about 98 when I shot that bullseye), but I have changed that one over to the Hogue grip as well, just to have the same basic feel for all three. I know each hand is different but would like to hear your take on why you chose what you did. From a cosmetic point, the grips look great. Thanks for all the other info. I'll get to other questions, like about reloading, when I come across them.

TL; DR (short version): the Ahrends work better for my hands, and I like the colors.

Long version:

My hands didn't work with the Hogue grips that came on any of my revolvers--the palm-swell always felt oddly placed, or maybe just oddly shaped; the finger-groove for the middle finger was just a tad too big, meaning that it felt like I was curling my middle finger in too much to get a good grip, like I was trying to hold a 2-liter soda bottle; and the finger-groove for the pinky always felt strange (namely because the whole grip tapers into a tear-drop shape around the pinky, which my right hand does not do when curling around a handgun grip). Also, the whole grip felt upside down to me--wider at the top than at the bottom.

So I got it in my head that I didn't like the Hogue revolver grips, and I went looking for something 'better', but I didn't want to spend a lot of money, so I found...another set of Hogue revolver grips, but the round-butt type. These fit a little better, but aesthetically, I just couldn't see a target revolver having anything but a square-butt, especially not a 6", full-underlug S&W 617-6 (which was the only S&W I had the time).

Eventually I bought a set of Eagle "Heritage" round-to-square conversion grips, which emulate the classic target grips: hand-checkering, slight coke-bottle shape, diamonds around the screw holes, no finger-grooves. Here was a good set of grips, I thought. No finger-grooves to force my fingers into weird angles, a good palm-filling shape without needing to resort to a palm-swell, and the good feel of wood (as opposed to the synthetic feel of rubber). For a while, these were the bee's knees.

But then I started shooting Bullseye (Spring 2008), and thus started to really use these grips. And then I found out that the cramped front-strap profile makes my fingers sore, especially my middle-finger which bears the whole weight of the gun. The lack of a speedloader cut-out makes using the DS-10-SPEED loader difficult (the grips only have a 'football' relief). I was growing dissatisfied with the grips for use in competition as I continued to shoot in my league's weekly matches.

Fast-forward a bit to mid-Summer 2008, to a gun show. One of the vendors there was a dealer for Ahrends grips. I had already heard of Ahrends grips online, and saw a lot of pictures and read a lot of positive stuff; here was a chance to get my hands on the grips themselves. Before, I blindly bought grips without trying them to really see if they fit me first, this time was different. I brought one of my x17s to the show (by this time I had two 617s and a 17-8, all K-frame round-butts) and got to try on many different styles of the Ahrends grips--no finger-grooves, finger-grooves, round-butt, square butt, the "retro" grips (they didn't have the "retro combat" grips yet).

I decided that I liked the square butt style since it touched a little lower on the heel of my palm, and I liked the finger grooves since they were evenly-shaped and would allow my ring finger to also squeeze the gun without squeezing my middle finger. Finally, they were very narrow up top.

A few years ago, I owned both a Taurus 905 snub-nose 9mm revolver and a Ruger SP101 in .357 Magnum. The recoil from both were rather stout. I discovered early on that my hands seem to like a narrow grip for heavier-recoiling guns when I went to a smaller, skinnier grip for the 905 and the pain of shooting it magically went away. The SP101 was absolutely punishing with full-house loads, and was made worse with a set of wood Hogues that I bought for it--the Hogues increased the girth of the grip up top and directed the recoil into the hard bones of my hands, rather than the soft webbing between the thumb and index finger. The bruises and soreness would take a few days to go away each time I worked up the courage to light off a few magnums. Even a S&W Model 10 purchased later--even shooting lighter 125gr standard .38SPL loads--would beat up my hands with grips that were too wide, so I took some sandpaper to them to make them narrower up top, and the pain went away.

So the Ahrends grips, narrower up top, seemed to be just the ticket. This was confirmed when I picked up a S&W 686-1 and put some Ahrends grips on it and shot it with full-house .357 Magnum 158gr loads without any problems. And again when I bought my Model 19-3, even without the heavier frame to eat up some of the recoil.

The Ahrends grips, being so narrow, also allowed my right trigger finger to operate the trigger in double-action without having to rotate my hand around the grip to get leverage (the fingers on my left hand are either longer or skinnier or both, and have no problems with the longer reach).

Thus, I have Ahrends "Tactical" round-to-square finger-groove grips on all of my target S&Ws. When I picked up my 625, I didn't even bother to try shooting it with the stock Hogues; I swapped them out right away for some Ahrends. Same for my 686-5.

---

As to the choice of wood, well, first and foremost I like the 'dirty blond' look of the yellow/brown Goncalo Alves wood on stainless steel, and I like the dark red of the Cocobolo wood on blued steel.

Secondly, the texture of the Goncalo Alves grips is a bit tackier than the Cocobolo grips. I guess this is because Cocobolo is a denser wood, and eventually my original set of Cocobolo grips were worn smooth (basically polished) from my practicing so often. With the smooth backstrap of my stainless guns, this meant that my grip was a little slippery sometimes. Less dense woods, like Goncalo Alves, don't seem to wear smooth as readily as the Cocobolo and retain their 'tackiness' a bit longer. Thus, even practicing as often as I do (5-6 times a week at the range, plus a lot of dryfire at home), my grip has not (yet) felt slippery.

I'm sure these grips will eventually wear smooth, too, which is why I'd like to get the backstraps of all my target guns serrated, just like my old-school 686-1 and the above-pictured 19-3. Just that little bit more grip.

I hope this little story answered your questions =)

Thanks for the nice long reply! I'm looking into the tactical ones like yours but maybe the blonde maple. I need to see if I can find someone around here that has them to try out and see how they fit my hand. If they fit well and I feel they will improve my shooting, I'll definitely get them for all the revolvers!

The key point to take away from it all is that the gear you get and think will really work for you at one point will probably evolve and you'll look at other options. Subtle changes, like using forged triggers instead of the MIM triggers, new-style cylinder latches rather than old-style latches, the different grips... Every time I read a "new to Bullseye; what equipment should I use?" thread I try to chime in, amidst the recommendations for Ruger Mk. IIIs and Browning Buckmarks topped with Tasco red-dots, that the newbie should just go with what they have, even if it's a Walther P22, shoot a league match or three with it, and then reassess after they've figured some things out.

The Ahrends grips I have are squared on the front and back-straps which took a slight getting-used-to (since I was accustomed to having a smooth transition all the way around the grip). I find now, however, that they help me to figure out whether I've overgripped or undergripped the gun. I think I read somewhere that Ahrends had the option of having the front of the grips rounded (rather than squared), but I don't think I've ever seen any rounded examples (except for their "Retro Combat" grips, which I don't care for).

Hey SS686,

Where are you located? Where is your home club/range?

Chris

Chris,

I'm in San Antonio, TX and shoot at Blackhawk Range. The club I shoot with was called San Antonio Rifle and Pistol Club and it has recently merged with another group and I forget the new name. I'm not an official member of that particular club right now, but I'm shooting with them and will join if I stick with it.


Curtis

I was just wondering. I am somewhat of a beginning Bullseye shooter my self. I shoot at the Terrell Rifle and Pistol Club. We have one guy, who is quite an accomplished shooter, that reacently went all revolver. Let me know if you are ever in my neck of the woods and we will go shoot a little

Chris

Sounds good and let me know if you are ever down here. The one other revolver guy down here that does bullseye was shooting great the day I saw him. I should have asked for his score, but I will next time.

You mentioned your arm hurting from holding up the gun. You may want to try a Mod 17 instead of the 617 as it has no under-lug and less weight. The 617 is considerably heavier.

I enjoy shooting revolvers in bullseye, but do use a semi-auto in competition. Join a bullseye league where you shoot every week. You will enjoy it.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Thanks for the tip. I think the arm was mainly tired since A) It was my first bullseye competition and B) I had only really practiced supported and not really unsupported so I didn't feel it was a concern, but if it bothers me in 6 months, you can bet I'll be following your advice and probably switching over from the full lugs, but I will say the weight is nice for followup shots.

Curtis

On the subject of revolvers: Has anyone compared the precision of .45AR vs. .45 Long Colt? I am particularly interested in the choice of a Model 25 in one or the other.

I have a Model 25-2 that I use .45AR -- 4.3gr AA#2 behind a 200gr Zero LSWC. It's proven very accurate when I do my part.

I've never shot a .45 Colt out of anything, so I don't know how the two compare.