I'm waffling.. 15-22 or dedicated .22LR upper?

Tram said:

The 15-22 could be said to be a higher dollar airsoft model when compared to a real steel AR upper chambered in .22lr, couldn't it?

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No I don't believe that can be said at all. The 15-22 is not "cobbled together" it was a purpose designed, AR chambered in 22 Long Rifle. It was not some existing air soft parts that were re-fitted to fire real bullets. The 15-22 was designed in house, from scratch by S&W and it's the only AR platform that uses AR Fire Control Group components and has all of the same Functions as a .223 or 5.56 AR, with exception to the dust cover and forward assist (not including conversion kits).

Brett248Vista said:

No I don't believe that can be said at all. The 15-22 is not "cobbled together" it was a purpose designed, AR chambered in 22 Long Rifle. It was not some existing air soft parts that were re-fitted to fire real bullets. The 15-22 was designed in house, from scratch by S&W and it's the only AR platform that uses AR Fire Control Group components and has all of the same Functions as a .223 or 5.56 AR, with exception to the dust cover and forward assist (not including conversion kits).

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These are legitimate questions, I'm not trying to argue with you here, as I still consider myself a pretty big newb to the AR platform..

I don't think the 15-22 is cobbled together, if I said something that made it appear that way, I apologize. I have wanted a 15-22 for quite some time - it is actually what spurred me into the AR realm. I was an AK guy and in the time the 15-22 has been out, I've acquired several AR lowers..

How is the 15-22 the "ONLY AR platform that uses AR Fire Control Group components and has all of the same Functions as a .223 or 5.56 AR, with exception to the dust cover and forward assist (not including conversion kits)." Wouldn't an AR upper that is designed from the ground up to run on a 5.56 lower also use the AR FCG, have both a dust cover and FA, be just as realistic, if not more realistic than the 15-22?

If I'm running a 5.56x45 or a 7.62x39 upper on a Spikes ST-15 lower and I pop that off and throw on a CMMG or a Spikes .22 upper - the only thing that has changed is the upper. I'm still using my "actual" AR lower..

Sounds like your getting the upper then.

Jav said:

Sounds like your getting the upper then.

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I'm real close.. The upper is cheaper at this point..

I could still go either way, but it's looking like the upper makes more sense..

Now CMMG has the "Bolt Hold Open on last round", I feel they have finally reached "full function" (BHO has been missing in all the conversions and .22 AR uppers till CMMG recently) .22 uppers. Their prices are also much more attractive than many of the higher priced uppers which lack such function. I'll be considering a CMMG upper next year (we already have 15-22, and a 5.56 AR). I applaud S&W for bringing full function to the .22 AR world, and now CMMG for getting there with the conversions. IMHO these are the 2 best .22 AR choices to consider.

15-22
+ light. A plus in my book, but I can see others might prefer it weighed the same as their center fire AR.
+ If you want a quad rail, it comes with one. If you don't then this is a minus, as it will take custom parts (available from forum members here) to get to a std hand guard.
+ I like the S&W mags, YMMV.
+ S&W customer service. I've always gotten great service from them. YMMV.

CMMG
+ If you don't want a quad rail, this is a standard upper, with delta ring, ... so all AR "front furniture" fits, you just to buy it.
+ Uses almost standard "Black Dog" style mags. I say almost as there is a mod needed for the BHO. Some people seem to really like these mags (same mag on our Sig 522, but they are not my favorite).
+ Made (mostly) from std AR parts. So all small details are truly AR. Such as trigger guard. The 15-22 has molded in trigger guard that can not be replaced. CMMG/AR lower has replaceable (flip down on std) trigger guard. Big deal? No, but there are a few tiny details like this that some people care about.
+ Except for the small number of CMMG specific parts (collar, ..) all parts are AR parts, so you can buy them "everywhere".

I think if you get the 15-22, you will really like it. I don't have a CMMG upper (yet), but they are getting pretty good reviews also. Either will be fun. An afternoon shooting 200 rounds .223 cost about $60, the same 200 rds in .22 cost less than $6. But it's a rare day the 15-22 goes to the range and eats less than 300 rds.

Tram said:

How is the 15-22 the "AR platform that uses AR Fire Control Group components and has all of the same Functions as a .223 or 5.56 AR, with exception to the dust cover and forward assist (not including conversion kits)." Wouldn't an AR upper that is designed from the ground up to run on a 5.56 lower also use the AR FCG and be just as realistic, if not more realistic than the 15-22?

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I didn't insinuate that you were saying the 15-22 was cobbled, I was saying the Umarex clones are cobbled IMHO.

The S&W is a dedicated platform that mimics the AR even down to the parts inside it. It's the only one of it's kind that does. An upper is just that, an upper. The 15-22 is a complete out of the box rifle that functions the same as it's larger caliber counterparts. If you put a CMMG upper on any AR lower it does function the same as it did with the larger caliber upper. That's why I said "not including conversion kits".

Conversions are fine as long as you run a complete conversion upper (including a barrel). I personally would not just throw in a conversion bolt and charging handle into a .223 / 5.56 upper like many do. If you have a spare assembled lower, you could pick up a full assembled .22LR upper and have a complete rifle for training purposes in the smaller caliber.

I think what I'm getting at is why switch back and forth? 2 Guns are better than 1.

Brett248Vista said:

I didn't insinuate that you were saying the 15-22 was cobbled, I was saying the Umarex clones are cobbled IMHO.

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Yeh, the Umarex is a joke.. I can't believe Colt let them put their name on it.. Oh well..

The S&W is a dedicated platform that mimics the AR even down to the parts inside it. It's the only one of it's kind that does.

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I don't know about it being the only one of it's kind anymore.. It used to be but take a look at this.. CMMG is making complete .22LR rifles.. 1:16 twist barrels, etc, etc..

If you put a CMMG upper on any AR lower it does function the same as it did with the larger caliber upper. That's why I said "not including conversion kits".

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True, I guess I just think of a conversion as more of the kits - trying to throw a .22 bolt into a 5.56 chambered weapon, but I see what you're saying.. I think we're both on the same page..

Conversions are fine as long as you run a complete conversion upper (including a barrel). I personally would not just throw in a conversion bolt and charging handle into a .223 / 5.56 upper like many do. If you have a spare assembled lower, you could pick up a full assembled .22LR upper and have a complete rifle for training purposes in the smaller caliber.

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Yeh, I don't like the idea of running just a conversion bolt..

I think what I'm getting at is why switch back and forth? 2 Guns are better than 1.

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You're right, 2 are better than one.. I'll probably keep this lower I have and it will wind up as a dedicated lower to the CMMG upper..

Jeff,

What's the deal with the "Complete" M4's from CMMG? Is the lower an "off the shelf" AR15 lower or is it like the 15-22 in that it's "Close" in dimensions but "slightly different" so that you can't buy one of these and then later drop a .223 / 5.56 upper on it?

The 15-22 was the only clean sheet approach, but it looks like with the CMMG complete rifles that has changed. And were I in a position to buy a complete .22LR AR platform today, the CMMG would probably be my first choice. It is a little more money but the functioning forward assist and dust cover (while not needed on a .22LR) are nice because it then makes it a 100% functional clone of it's bigger brothers.

CMMG "Gas deflector"?

Brett248Vista said:

Jeff,

What's the deal with the "Complete" M4's from CMMG? Is the lower an "off the shelf" AR15 lower or is it like the 15-22 in that it's "Close" in dimensions but "slightly different" so that you can't buy one of these and then later drop a .223 / 5.56 upper on it?

The 15-22 was the only clean sheet approach, but it looks like with the CMMG complete rifles that has changed. And were I in a position to buy a complete .22LR AR platform today, the CMMG would probably be my first choice. It is a little more money but the functioning forward assist and dust cover (while not needed on a .22LR) are nice because it then makes it a 100% functional clone of it's bigger brothers.

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CMMG's .22 lower is a "mil spec" .223/5.56 lower. They have had attractive upper prices for a while, but have recently (last few months) added actual BHO. They also have optional working forward assist. We're keeping our 15-22, but may add a CMMG upper next year.
CMMG is not a clean sheet approach, but rather a modification/improvement to the conversions most do with dedicated uppers.

QUEBEC-A .22 Evolution Rifle w/Low Profile FSB, www.cmmginc.comCMMG Inc. AR15 Rifles, Parts and Accessories. .22 LR Dedicated AR-15 Rifles, Dedicated AR 15 9mm Rifles and Uppers, Tactical Bacon

Phil,

Yeah that add on "Gas Deflector" (Brass Deflector would be my guess) needs to go!

Other than that, it looks like a very attractive AR platform to get into.

For someone not vested into a 15-22 or someone who wants another AR in .22LR looks to be a nice piece of kit.

Brett248Vista said:

Jeff,

What's the deal with the "Complete" M4's from CMMG? Is the lower an "off the shelf" AR15 lower or is it like the 15-22 in that it's "Close" in dimensions but "slightly different" so that you can't buy one of these and then later drop a .223 / 5.56 upper on it?

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From what I understand the Quebec model lower cannot be used with a .223/5.56 upper, while the Quebec A lower can..

If you're going to go the dedicated upper or conversion kit route, you should take into consideration the magazines that are available. Prior to buying my 15-22, I decided to get some high cap Black Dog mags to use with my M261 kit and be done with it. I have two M261 kits and haven't shot them in years because I didn't like the 10 round inserts. When I found out that high cap mags were available for the M261, I was pretty stoked, especially since the cost of ammo has risen so much.

I had read quite a few good reviews on the BDM mags so I ordered four BDM charcoal mags. I was so disappointed when I loaded up the BDM mags and tried hand cycling them through my AR. On a full mag, I would get maybe 2 or 3 rounds to chamber. All the other rounds would jam or stovepipe and the bullets were getting nice gouges in them or the cases would get bent. I finally found a post that said the feed ramp on a brand new mag needed to be sanded or Dremeled to get it to feed properly. The tweaking did help and I can get it to cycle Remington ammo OK, but not Winchester. I still have not done any actual shooting with these mags. For some reason I'm just not in any hurry to go out to the range and mess with them.

On the other hand, the 15-22 mags are realy nice and well made -- much nicer than the BDM mags in my opinion. I've only shot my 15-22 once and it was 300+ rounds of fun without a single hiccup. When I do get around to testing the BDM mags, I will make sure I bring along the 15-22 in case I have too many problems with the BDM mags.

I absolutely love my Spikes .22 upper.

I ended up buying a dedicated 5.56 lower for it.
If it were me, considering how well my Spikes works, I’d buy a complete .22 M4 from Spikes.

Emory

BDM mags work great in my Sig522. I like the BDM 15rd short mags.

Brett248Vista said:

Phil,
Yeah that add on "Gas Deflector" (Brass Deflector would be my guess) needs to go!
Other than that, it looks like a very attractive AR platform to get into.
For someone not vested into a 15-22 or someone who wants another AR in .22LR looks to be a nice piece of kit.

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I've still got room in the safe.

Tram said:

From what I understand the Quebec model lower cannot be used with a .223/5.56 upper, while the Quebec A lower can..

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Correct, you can not just drop a 5.56 upper on the Quebec; because on the dedicated .22, they have used a poly buffer tube that does not take a buffer or spring (much like the 15-22). But I think (not sure) you could remove that and put on a standard tube/buffer/spring and be good to go with a 5.56 upper. CMMG does say they are all "mil-spec".
From the CMMG web site on the Quebec:
"•Mil-spec upper and lower with ceramic finish"
both for the Quebec and Quebec-A.

Yep if that was the only difference and the buffer tube is a standard threaded mil spec, it could be swapped out. I would ask the manufacturer before purchasing just to be 100% sure.

The A model is 100% swappable.. I'll be running it on a DSArm's Spartan lower..

I'm on the same fence. I have the following in the "cart" at CMMG: Sierra .22 LR Upper Receiver w/Low Profile Railed GB (Un-notched .22 Stainless Steel Bolt Upgrade, Stainless Steel Collar), .22 Evolution Conversion Bolt Hold Open Actuator, (2x) BHOA 25 Round Magazine for .22 Evolution. That's $492 shipped. There's an M&P 15-22 down the street for about $475. I'm going to shop around for 15-22s and see what's available. I think if I can find the one I want (possibly with the MagPul furniture) for around $500... I have to go with it.