Take a look at how the .22 performs compared to others in this study.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

The data after this line is critically important for those who would consider choosing the 15-22 as a defensive weapon over more capable calibers:
Some people will look at this data and say "He's telling us all to carry .22s". That's not true.

Also, please note I said "over other more capable calibers". Obviously, if a .22 is all you have, use it.

I would not want to get shot with a .22( especially out of a rifle barrel), they kill people, its a slug of lead....... Having said that, I would much rather have a .357/.45 or 12 loaded with 00 Buck if I could choose........

Speaking of .22's, a friend has a Class 3 registered American Arms 180 with 275 rd drums. Most impressive .22 I have ever seen and the cyclic rate is around 1200 rds per minute I think.....

agreed...if my 15-22 or my Remington .22 bolt are all thats available beats throwing rocks...but if i have my choice i will take my USP .40 with Hornady Critical Defense rounds OR the good old Savage Model 24 .410 with #6 birdshot

the point everyone has made...will a .22 be better than nothing>? yes obviously....is it a "go to" caliber>? nope

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Overkill is Underrated

actually what makes me smile is the similarity these numbers provide for the .40S&W and the .45ACP. don't get me wrong i love the .45 and shoot it out of my 1911 on occasion, but i really like .40S&W. when they first marketed it the tag line was "the power of a .45 with the magazine capacity of a 9"...heh don't know if that's entirely true but i've been hooked on the .40 ever since. it's a great round.

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M&P 15-22 Fanboy

Makes a lot of sense.

my dad and I have had several discussions regarding the .40 SW cartridge...he is a tried and true 9mm man and i have only recently bought a pistol after owning several rifles in various calibers

I admit .40 wasnt initially my first choice--I stumbled upon 'smoking hot deal' on a Glock 22 ( former Detroit PD patrol pistol even) for $275--and initially intended to keep it until i could afford a Kimber .45 1911

several hundred rounds later in various bullet configurations and weights I honestly do not know what the hype about .45 is all about! I bought my 'carry' pistol in .40 ( HK USP Compact) and have no intention of looking back...

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Overkill is Underrated

Don't asked the assasin's if a .22 is not a good caliber. During my training in Stockton Cal. back in 1996, A swat trainer, that started the SWAT unit in LA, told me, and I will always remember it, "It's not about caliber, it's placement, placement, placement, don't forget that". I haven't. Again depending on the duty at hand, a 22 cal. is deadly make no mistake. Now would you take one out on patrol as a primary, NO, backup maybe. The 22lr has it's place in shooting, plinking, covert and training. It is to me a very multi purpose caliber that I respect the hell out of. If I had my M&P with 10 rds in my bed room at night and someone came in, I would feel just fine using it knowing that I would put all 10 rounds in a 1" hole without worries.. So don't knock it off your list of calibers.. Good Shooting..

In my opinion as a home defense weapon, use what you're comfortable with. A 15-22 is enough to ruin an attacker's day. It's about staying alive or protecting someone you love. It is NOT about killing.

I can tell you this....in my time with the FD, the .22 round was one of the most used in murders....we went to more shooting calls involving a .22 round than most any other...don't know if it was the "cheap and available" thing or what, but many a person has fallen to it.

Just suppose for a moment that the economy totally tanks, world wide.

Really, REALLY bad times set in, currency no longer has anyvalue, the Government is no longer sending out any entitlement/benfit checks, fuel is unobtainable and there is no more food showing up at the local super market.

You can buy a brick (500+) rounds for abouyt $20.00 right now.

Getring shot in a post societal collapse wil have a whole new meaning when there is no available medical care. An easily healed wound would probably be fatal in that situation.

I have an M&P 15-22 and I just got an M&P 22 and I got them because in that situation, they would be pretty valuable and effective.

I have other larger caliber and much more appropiate defense guns but none of them shoot 5,000 rounds of ammo for under $200.00

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Bud
Lots of S&Ws

I hope that scenario never happens, but I do see your point. For me the 22lr and the M&P is a great "training" aid for my AR platform. Keeps me in the ready zone without breaking my bank account. I've stocked up on 5.56, 40 cal., 9mm & 45 cal. Just purchased 4 bricks of CCI mag, 1 brick of Winchester 550, and I have a brick of the Remington (haven't used this yet, they say it is ****). Anything that keeps my edge and saves me dollars works fine for me..

Empty the 10 rounds into the per, and then beat him to death with the rifle.

.22 are killers, in the right hands, with a perfect shot placement. But they have no frontal stopping power. A golf club is a better defensive weapon. (Tiger's wife almost finished him off with one!)

Without a lot of validation of the article, the conclusion seen very valid. All my grandkids can or will learn (two under a year old) to shot a .22 rifle and pistol!

Practice for defensive shooting...double tap to the chest and one to the head or two to the head and one to the chest. Osama bin Laden fight or lack of fight is confirmation!

A point of interest. My son inl-aw's father was a coroner for 25 + years in in a large western Colorado county. As he tells it, he has recovered more bodies with .22 caliber fatal shots then any other caliber. And he says, that little wad of lead does some funky damage when it hits a body, e.g. shot though the eye, then just bounces around the inside of the skull scrambling the brain until it runs out of energy or hit a femur then follows the bone and end near the opposite shoulder. All the while Larger calibers leave big straight holes that can be bandaged.

I agree with Budman5 about a .22. I carry .380 ACP, .38/.357/9mm, .44 Mag. and my favorite, the 1911 - 45ACP.

I like the idea of a large gapping hole. unless I'm punching holes in paper or shooting steel. ALL my carry/defense rounds have hollow points or controlled expansion bullets.

To paraphrase Lt Col Jeff Cooper, use a handgun to fight to get to your long gun. That just maybe your 15-22.

Interesting about the rifle and shotgun stats. I would be interested in break down of the rifle cablers too.

The shotgun stats confirmed, what the German's whined about in WWI, when the US solders and marines hit the trenches with their shotguns! Es tut mir leid. Nein! OBTW... the Germans were the first to use chemical weapons in WWI too. ( both my grandfathers were in France during WWI.

So my conclusion is, have plenty of .22 ammunition and load up on #2, BB, and #4 buckshot, OO, and slugs Shot shells, and even some .40 S&W ammo.... for your friends who don't reload!

Aim small,

tat

I could screw a bad guy's day up with 25 rounds of .22lr!! haha
Also, .22lr is not that loud compared to other rounds. I can't imagine firing 00buck or my 10.5" SBR inside the house? Everyone would be deaf!

But alas, my night stand guns all run .45 JHP. =P

I'd have no issues using a quality firearm chambered in .22lr for self defense.

Granted this video illustrates .22lr CCI Stingers, the cavitation caused by .22lr isn't somthing to discount.

CCI Stinger .22 LR 32 gr Hollowpoint in SIM-TEST* Ballistic Test Media - YouTube

Agreed. .22lr's low recoil makes it very easy for me to place shots quickly and accurately on target.



^ 15-22, Federal Bulk, 50ft. Rapid fire.



^Ruger 10/22, 3-9X40 scope, Federal Bulk, indoor range 25yds.



^ Ruger MKIII, Federal Bulk, 21ft, fast pace fire.



In this hypothetical situation, a .22lr makes sense. Stockpiling ammo doesn't break the bank. If I had to venture out on foot, the weight & space ammo takes up in a hiking backpack becomes a big issue. I can carry more rounds of .22lr given a set weight constraint.

Now I want to go and get a Henry Survival Rifle...

I have the same guns for the same reasons...
I could not agree more !!!

I have been told more than once that I am an idiot, but I trust the .22lr with my life. But I do not trust all .22lr rounds. My Stingers and Velociters are the apple of my eye.

If I could only have 2 weapons in my house out of all that I have. I would keep both my 22 rifles. My bolt action is a tack driver, and my semi auto with the red dot is deadly enough for consistent head shots out to 50yds shooting pretty fast. I don't care what weapon you use, if you are not placing your shots in the intended spot, it doesn't matter, yes with a smaller caliber anything, shot placement is more critical. I am completely confident in my shooting skills will all of my weapons, but follow ups are much quicker with less recoil.

My son and his bb gun are capable of taking out eyes at 20yds. He has done so good handling his bb gun safely and shooting it excellent that he is getting himself an M&P 15-22 for christmas. He is getting his before I will be getting myself an M&P 15. Any weapon in the right hands is deadly.

Systema (still learning), I'd probably use their own firearm to shoot them in the groin if they were close enough.

other than that it's the nagant (with bayonet) or the 15-22 (most likely as it's always loaded within reach of my desk/bed)... I'm proficient enough with either to take someone down at distance or point blank, and i would generally aim to kill as opposed to injure (I'm not getting sued).

I don't care what caliber the weapon is - not many people are going to take shots to the head, neck and chest and not drop.

Been shot with a 22 round, and i can tell ya..i dont wanna go thru it again.
enterrance hole was in the front deltoid of my shoulder and it passed completly thru and out my back..after seeing this YES i would use a 22 for self defense. And yes i am stocking up on cci velocitors....nice little round.

Both my rifles are 22's... My 15-22 and my AR... as for gun its a Springfield XD40... that's about all I could carry in a SHTF situation.

I have eight .22s and any of them would be the last thing I would reach for in a home HD situation. The FIRST will be one of my 12-gauge shotguns. As for personal SD, again, the last would be one of my .22 pistols; my daily carry pistol is a .40 S&W with a 9mm as a second choice.

I have no intention of it taking a dozen shots for someone to slowly bleed to death while they are capable of shooting back.

Your life; your choice.

keep in mind most of us probably don't personally own 8 weapons.
you've definitely got a few years collecting on me...

I might also add the large s&w box leaning against my trash can diffused a potentially violent situation at my last apartment... most people don't want to get into a firefight.

Totally agree with my brother in blue.

everyone keeps talking like the bad guy is going to be standing square 5 yds in front of them with their hands at their side just like a range target. the only benefit i can see a .22 having is more rounds and thats only if you have the time to get off more than 1 round. i want more damage and penetration when and IF i hit them. do some reading about the percent of misses in a SD scenario. your adrenaline is pumping so i am less worried about recoil or noise or flash. by training with my 9mm i am going to depend on muscle memory to get the rounds on target as fast as possible. .22s kill more people because they're cheap and accessible. mob hits are done in the soft parts of the head because sometimes .22s dont penetrate. ive never seen them issued to any police or military departments either.

again i love my 15-22 but there are better options if you have them available. use whatever you're comfortable with, im not trying to show anyone up, just providing info to think about.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

And in a well lit area so they can take aim.

I bet some of the ".22 is fine for SD" guys have magnified optics that don't work for **** at close range.

I can hear it now, " but I have a red dot" or "I have night sights"

I doubt anyone here thinks the 15-22, or ANY .22, is /preferable/ to a larger caliber gun. But if that's what you happen to have, either because it's ALL you have, or happens to be the closest, in most cases, I agree that it will do a pretty good job.

So, I don't think the question was so much "I have a .22, as well as a 9mm and .44 mag, and wonder if the .22 is best for home self defense?" but rather "All I have is a .22; can I use it for home defense?"

Oh, I have far more than eight firearms (I don't own any weapons; weapons are for offensive use and everything I own will only be used for defense.) and they range over 14 different cartridges.

There is no such thing as one cartridge or one firearm for all purposes. My problem is the abundance of first-time gun owners here (with their first gun being a .22 LR) who have learned just enough to be a danger to themselves and others, when it comes to the concept of defending one's home or person. A little knowledge is a dangerous and a little incorrect knowledge can get one killed. Especially dangerous, IMO, is the advice from retired and ex LEOs that .22s are an OK defensive round because of all the people they have seen killed with them - or the BS that they are OK because professional hit men use them. For the LEOs - if the .22 is an adequate self-defense round, why doesn't your department issue them instead of 9mm, .357 SIG, .40S&W or .45 ACP, and why isn't one your personal primary carry piece?

True, but don't bet your life on that assumption.

If that's ALL one has, one better spend a lot of time and ammo getting proficient at shooting full body targets and keeping all the rounds in the CNS and cranial zones.

I can just hear a prosecutor now asking, "Mr. Jones, why was it necessary to shoot Mr. Dead Guy with all 25 rounds from your assault weapon?"

The original post has a stat where over 31% of people hit by the .22 didn't stop.

That's almost a third of the people shot with it were still able to press their attack. This is not a good thing.

It is not about "killing", it is about stopping the illegal attack on your or another's person.

BUT

You don't get to say when the fight is over, that is up to the guy you are shooting. There are only a couple of ways to stop an attack and most of those involve doing enough damage to actually stop them. Physical damage which means they are incapable of attacking. It isn't like paintball where a well placed shot means they call themselves out, you may need to remove their ability to perform tasks. This involves damage to their Central Nervous system or causing lack of oxygen to the brain, either by exsanguination or by interrupting the blood flow by destroying their heart.

It isn't nice, but then fighting for you life isn't about nice, it is about survival. You better be prepared to KILL the attacker in order to stop his illegal attack, otherwise why are you using Lethal Force? If the situation does not warrant the badguy dead, you'd better not be shooting him with ANY gun.

A best case scenario is everyone goes home alive, but if things have gotten to the point of pulling the trigger, you'd better be meaning to kill your attacker. Forget about the whitewash - I was defending myself, not trying to kill him saga. You are using Lethal Force in many cases when you just BRANDISH the gun, actually dropping the hammer on someone means you are trying to kill them because it is the only way in which you can stop the attack.

If the gunfire does result in the attack stopping, without anyone dying, bonus. But you'd better be correct in employing lethal force in the first place and you will be accountable for it.

Saying something can bite you both ways. You don't want someone to use a previous statement for evidence of pre-meditation, but you also don't want someone using a statement about not wanting to kill someone as evidence of the situation not warranting lethal force.

As for the .22, whenever I take new shooters to the range the first thing I do is shoot something with the .22 to show "all guns can damage". I cheat by using Stingers and a sealed, full 500ml plastic bottle, but one second there is a plastic bottle, the next there is a light rain. It has always been very useful for demonstrating the damage even a .22 can do.

A little off topic here but, just remember that in the unlikely event anyone is involved in a self defense shooting and the perp doesn't die....
A good civil lawyer would look at anything posted here, or any other board as something to use against said person.

I was on another board when someone asked does anyone have any documented proof that that actually happens or is it an internet rumour?

Take a look at the number of hits measured against the number of people shot. For the .22 (including 22 shorts) it's a mere 213 hits measured on 154 people. For most all the other calibers, 9mm on up, the number of hits per person shot is much greater. It makes sense that people who are hit with more bullets are likely to be incapacitated at a greater rate.

For example: The .22 shows a 31% failure to incapacitate with with an avg of 1.38 hits per person shot. The 9mm is showing a 13% failure to incapacitate with an avg of 2.45 hits per person. It's difficult to compare caliber "stopping power" while measuring two 9mm hits versus one .22.

Interestingly, when measured one to one, such as percentage incapacitated by one shot to the head or torso, the .22 performs quite well compared to other calibers.

What all this means... I don't pretend to know. But I tend to think that caliber between the ears means a lot more than caliber in hand.

True true. There are simply too many variables to say which one works "best".

That article also spoke about intermediate barriers, even something simple like clothing. A heavy winter jacket, while not bullet proof, can be strong enough to stop the rounds acheiving critical organs. This is less likely with larger calibers.

I'd like to do my own study, but there are simply too many variables, and I don't have access to the right information.

I'd still, from personal experience, only use the .22 if my other option was a rock. Many people claim the low recoil aids the ability to punch one hole groups. That is a crutch to back up lack of training or practice.

You can do the same thing with a 5.56mm. Or a 9x19mm. Or a .45ACP. I've got a pic on Photobucket (down at the moment) which is a one group hole from my 1911, through two mags.

KBK

Prior to starting my LE career I scoffed at the idea of a 22 being adequate for anything other than target shooting and plinking. On my very first trip to the Cook County Morgue I had lunch with the coroner. Being a firearms enthusiast I queried him as to what calibre was most prevalent in cases his office handled. Without hesitation or having to think about it he stated 22s, I was astounded thinking the answer would have been at least something larger. This was a statement of fact, supported by thousands of death investigations.
Would a 22 be my first choice for defense, no ofcourse not. Off duty and now once again a civilian I usually carry a 38 or 9mm, and believe it or not there are people who think anything under 40 calibre is inadequate. Like everyone else on this forum we all have opinions, mine is based on a 31 year long police career. My postings in several threads on the subject are just my opinion. I recently bought a Model 43c for my wife because she is very recoil sensitive. Everytime we go to the range she shoots it and shoots it well. She also likes my Model 632 with 32 long wadcutters but prefers the 22. When it comes to rifles she absolutely loves our M&P15-22 so we keep that loaded in a case in our bedroom in case she ever has to repel boarders. I still maintain that M&P is an excellent home defense tool. To those who disagree I respect your opinion, use an maintain what you feel comfortable with.
An old retired Chicago cop.

I couldn't agree more.

That's exactly why my home defense shotgun looks pretty plain (compared to many others).

Shooting someone several times with a "tricked out" .22lr that you post pictures of on the internet isn't going to help your case.

Another real world example off the .22lr not being able to do the job the way a SD/HD firearm should...

My mother and I work on my grandfather's cattle ranch in Montana (seasonal for me). Two years ago (I was at home in Washington) my mom had to put a four month old sick/crippled calf down. She grabbed the old model 62A off the fireplace and headed out to the corral. The thing couldn't move and she was within ten yards of him. She put three rounds right between the eyes. It didn't work. The forth shot finally did him in. This was an ideal situation, which wouldn't be the case in a home invasion where the other end is able to shoot back. I know a cow isn't a human, but it still taught her a lot about the right tool for the job. I was sent out to do the same three days ago (with my .44mag rifle), but he was allready gone. I hate that part of being a rancher.

You need better lawyers if you think something as simple as the look of your firearm is going to get you into trouble. It is easy to call expert witnesess to testify why the suppressed SBR with the H-1 and PEQ is a good defense tool. The easiest thing is to point to what the cops use. Even better what SWAT use.

The right tool for the job does not mean you are out for trouble. It does mean trouble can be most effectively handled though.

KBK

In my state, as long as the shooting itself is ruled legal self-defense, castle law provides an affirmative defense against any civil suit brought by an invader's relatives. This applies whether I used my bone-stock 1911 or my BCM with the evil adjustable stock, insidious flash suppressor, demonic pistol grip, and downright maniacal Aimpoint. And I could use all 30 rounds from my ruthless "high capacity" magazine, if that's what it took to stop the aggressor.

Have you seen SF's 60 rounder?

It's a little big, and a lot expensive.
For the price of a single Surefire 60 round mag, I can get 6 standard P-Mags, or 8 standard GI mags with Magpul followers.
I'm not ragging on anyone who wants/owns a Surefire mag, but it's not for me.
Besides, if you're going to go a little nuts, why not go all the way?

Just want to state it's not ideal to use a firearm in all defense situations, but unless (and even if) you are using beanbags, or rubber bullets in your weapon you are employing potentially lethal force regardless of your intent. If you are legally justified in shooting the person, live or die, it was justified end of story.

Also bear in mind people have been sued for permanently maiming intruders, and although it was justified legally, civilly you can be paying for the persons care and "inability to work" for the rest of their life.

and yes, if you use it for defense it's a weapon, if you use it for hunting it's a weapon (weapons aren't only classified as things that hurt humans)
using it to obliterate a target... you get the point.

your argument would work well with something like a blade which can be used as a tool, but seriously any rifle or handgun really only has one purpose and that is to obliterate/damage/cause harm to whatever you shoot at. unless it's decorative non functional piece.
legally speaking anything other than a bare fist can be considered a weapon.

Well said and you bring up a great point.

It is funny that you should bring that up because I have had two discussions within the past couple weeks about the effectiveness of .22s. The first was with a senior firearms instructor/retired LEO and the second was an owner of the gun club I belong to. They both said the same thing, people underestimate the damage that can be done by a .22. In fact the Gun Club Owner said that they used .22s on the ranch when butchering cattle. I think the mistake your Mom made was shooting the calf between the eyes, gotta be the thickest part of the skull. In fact if you watch any of the gator show that seem to be so popular in TV right now, they use .22s to put the crocks down too. I know it is TV, but....

No one is saying the .22 isn't dangerous, they are saying it might not be the best tool for self defense.

You can use a 1300 Corsa as a race car, but it will be out performed by NASCAR and Formula 1 cars.

[QUOTE=Kayback;136615158]No one is saying the .22 isn't dangerous, they are saying it might not be the best tool for self defense.

I agree, but a lot of people think of them as ineffective. Make no mistake, my .22s are put away and my .45 is my choice for SD.

I have 2 guns my mp 22 rifle and my walther p22 pistol. I hav shot large caliber pistols and in the time it takes me set to take a second shot I can have 3 off with my Walther. For me its what Iam comfortable with. Im thinking about a smith and wesson 9 mm. I think that may be something I could handle. I like the op believe there is going to be a total meltdown of the economy. I hope Im wronng but I would rather be ready than sorry.

Just FYI, I have a S&W M&P 9C and LOVE it. Not quite small enough for concealed carry, though, (I got a Kahr, now, for that), so kinda wish I'd just got the plain "9". But great gun.

I agree 100% !!!
In fact I have the same weapons you do and got them for the same reasons !!!

also check out the springfield xd9 subcompact. the m&p feels better in my hand but i shot the xd better so thats what i went with. 9mm recoil is more manageable to me which is why i dont go to a bigger caliber but .22 is just too little damage. everything is a compromise really so good luck with whatever you choose.

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od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22