I spent so much time researching what tactical .22 rifle to get, I thought maybe someone might benefit from it (even if your needs are different).

I narrowed it down to the SW 15-22 and the Sig 522 for numerous reasons. (Yes the 10/22 was an option, but some had to be eliminated).

Reasons to buy a .22 rifle(not just a tactical rifle).

A. There are many reasons and that can be different for everyone. In order of importance for me.

1. Wanted to get the wife shooting without the recoil and fear of handguns.
2. I wanted one for trigger time. I will probably never own a .223/.556, so platform was not a factor here. (My center fire rifle will be a 9mm Carbine, Ok I guess that could end up being an AR Platform, but probably won't).
3. Looks. Good, bad or indifferent as a reason, I just like the look of the 15-22.
4. Survival Gun.

Variables for buying a tactical .22:

B. Reliability.
The Sig, from my research is probably a tad bit more reliable because its receiver is aluminum. The 15-22 POI (flexing) changing is well documented.

1. The firearm had to function for my wife. Both to learn on and for home protection (Yes I know, but if it's the only firearm she is not afraid of then so be it. Better than a rock).
2. I hate wasting money. No one wants to invest their money in anything that isn't going to work. There are plenty of reliable 22 rifles, but the list of 'tactical' reliable rifles seem to be short.

C. Weight: The 15-22 is about a pound lighter. Wow. And its extremely noticeable. I was really debating this variable as it has pros and cons.

1. Lighter is better for my wife to hold. Win 15-22
3. Heavier has less recoil and might make it easier to shoot for my wife. Win 522
4. Lighter is better for a survival/hiking/camping gun. Win 15-22
5. Heavier might mean more durable, certainly the receiver being made out of aluminum has the appearance of being more durable. Win 522.
6. Heavier = more accurate? There is plenty of information on the 15-22 flexing (some of it is tied to a loose barrel nut), but from what I am seeing the 522 is more accurate, especially at distance. Win 522

D. Survival gun: I feel the BOB thing is a bit over played, but they mean the same thing. It seems like most of the BOB community is realizing that if they had to leave, carrying ammo is heavy and the only true option here (without a humvee) is a .22. The 15-22 is lighter for sure. Actually for a true BOB gun I would look to another option that didn't have such a tactical look.

E. Tactical look. This has both pro's and con's.

1. I like the AR look.
2. The Sig is definitely not as "scary" looking.
2. Yes in a pinch it might be enough to scare someone off. The average person will never notice the .22 magazine. They will most likely see a big bad scary black gun.
3. The con is its a big bad scary black looking gun. Taking it hiking or camping might freak some out. I like to be as low profile as possible and the 15-22 and 522 are going to stand out more than a some other options

F. Magazine:
S&W has a proprietary magazine and the Sig uses a black dog. The S&W seem reliable from all intensive purposes(as long as you load them per the manuals directions), but there are pros and cons for both systems.

1. Sig mags are notoriously reliable.
2. Sig mags are closed to keep out dirt. S&W mags are open.
3. S&W mags easier to load because of load assist buttons (important for my wife)


F. Price. The Sig is cheaper. For what I paid for my MOE. I could have gotten a double barrel Sig 522. I was about to buy a Commando Sig as it was $100 cheaper ( I paid almost full MSRP to get an MOE here in CA).

G. Accessories. Hands down the 15-22 wins. Being an AR platform. Most accessories will fit (hand guards being the acceptation and no you can not interchange uppers and lowers).

H. Accuracy:
This was a non issue for me, but its important to many. While there are some on here grouping very nicely, the fact is the 15-22 is not a tack driver. From my research the 522 is a much more accurate rifle. And if you really want to do long distance shooting for accuracy there are better options than the tactical .22 rifles out there.

I. Last round Lock open and bolt release.

1. Both have a last round lock back. The 15-22 is a true lock back, where the 522 locks back on the magazine.
2. Both have a bolt release button that works. The 522 can be manually locked back and then the bolt release will work.

This was the Deciding factor for me. I just couldn't get past the Sig locking open on the magazine. It really just bothered me and in the end it was a deal breaker. I had the Sig in my hand and almost told them to wrap it up.

Wrap up:

In the end it was a hodge podge of reasons that were in my wife's best interests and my own "wants and needs".

To me the S&W 15-22 wins on: Light weight and looks. Accessories while not important to me, is a hands down winner.

The S&W 15-22 loses with on the flex issue and it also loses on price(at least in my area, SF Bay Area)

The Sig 522 wins on "quality" and it being more accurate at distance. Some will see the magazine choice a big win too.

The Sig loses on the faux lock back (I won't say it loses on weight because some might want a heavier gun). Which as stated was the deal killer for me.

Hope someone finds this useful. It got way longer than I thought it would. Its amazing how much thought can go into a purchase.

The best part is, mine is still in jail. I can pick it up Thursday after 4:15PM PST.

And thanks to everyone who contributes to this forum.

I hate to say this, but I disagree with the accuracy you noted about the 15-22. I don't know where you found that info, but about 90% of the people on this forum and that I've talked to say this gun is right on the money. Even mine is pretty darn accurate. I'm actually surprised at its accuracy. These guns aren't meant for accuracy.

Welcome aboard! Congrats on the new rifle. Wow. This was a long post. You did put a lot of thought into it.

Never say never. The 15-22 was my gateway to a 15-Sport. Don't knock it until you've tried it.


Agreed.

What flex issue? I've seen flex issues on polymer framed big boy 5.56/.223 AR's, but not so much on the 15-22.

I've shot a 15-22 & a Sig 522. They're both fine rifles. If I do my job right, they both are equally accurate. Accuracy is subjective to the skills and ability of the shooter.

Now the one affordable .22lr who's design construction provides more potential for long distance accuracy is a Marlin 795. That micro grooved barrel is outstanding. Pop a scope on it, and squirrels beware!

While a 15-22 wouldn't be my first choice for home defense, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to use it. Shot placement is key. With almost non existent recoil, shot placement & follow up shots are quick and easy.

"BOB"? Bug Out Bag?

If you want a true Bug Out Bag .22lr, check out the Henry Survival Rifle. It gets the job done.

Ahhh... the image of the EBR (evil black rifle) lives!


Again, you might want to check out a Henry Survival Rifle for hiking & camping. Small package that will fit in your pack.

Hand guards are not the exception. It just takes a bit of elbow grease, a tool, and a few parts to put on a delta ring & A2 front sight. Then you can put on any non-railed handguard you want.

Again. Debatable. The 15-22's ability to be a tack driver is dependent on the skill and ability of the shooter.

Put any rifle in the hands of a poor shooter, and you'll get poor results.


I'm sure of it. This was a thoughtful post. Very engaging.

Ouch! My condolences on the long wait period.

x2... I didn't think I would own a 5.56 either! It only took 3 months after the purchase of the 15-22 to change that.

Yeah, the "flex" threw me for a loop also. Id like to see where that came from.

Long but a very good read. It did not take me long to decide; S&W or Sig= S&W. It sure is easy to break down the AR style to clean it up and we all know how dirty .22 ammo is.

Bought it to be a fun gun; already have a bolt action that makes one small ragged hole.

Bill

Good reviews. As one who owns both rifles I found little to quibble about.

I chose the 15-22 simply because a couple of friends of mine brought them out to my house and I shot one. Never really put much thought in to it, but while at a gun show, found a 811033 for 395.00. It was my first new gun purchase in a few years. Next day, same gun show, bought the 22a also.

Another friend already had the Sig 522, and to this day he hasn't shot it yet, but always tells me how good it is (lives in the city, never gets out).

From him going on about the Sig, I ended up with one for my oldest boy, the OD green when they were available for less then 350.00 new. Having shot both, I'd still take my 15-22.

The magazine is super easy to load (had to by the Black Dog loader for the 522), true last shot hold open. I like the light weight, cuz after I put my 3-12 scope on it, it weighs enough.

Both fine rifles.

__________________
Rod
M&P 22A, 40c, 15A, 15-22

I think that's an awesome post - thanks for sharing all of that info!

I hear the 15-22 is a piece of cake to clean, too - unlike the Colt M4-22.

Own both and got the SIG first after much back and forth debate between the two. I love my SIG with 2 barrels and the longer barrel is freakin accurate as hell, the short barrel with a fake suppressor is really cool.
Then I added a 15-22 and can throw it around real fast for tatical drills and has become my favorite of the two. I found a 15-22 MOE FDE I had to have and gave a neighbor kid my original 15-22 but keep it in my safe for him.
Its really fun for him, my daughter and me to take all 3 to the range and shoot side by side.
The range officer always tells us to slow it down...get the SIG if you can.

__________________
I see you. Now it's to late.

***** My choice was made without firing either gun. I handled multiple options from many manufactures (including the Colt). I am only sharing a small synapsis of my research and why my decision was made. My variables most likely aren't the same as yours.*******

I could have wrote so much more, but the post was getting long. I didn't delve into the "accuracy/flex" too much as it was not an important variable to me.

I am going to add to this post as some have added some good information.

Why I buy firearms:
While I enjoy shooting it is not truly a hobby of mine(I have been to Front Sight a few times and plan on going back and/or to other training facilities). My main reason for my purchase of firearms is for self protection/home defense. If I can share some fun with others while shooting that is a big bonus to me. I shoot maybe once a month. Most of the time I end up talking to some nice person next to me. I always offer to let people shoot what I have with me and they genuinely appreciate it. I think many are stunned that I do this.

Budget:
I have a plan of what I want/need to acquire. I most likely (unless I end up owning plenty of land I can shoot on) will never buy a gun just to have it. I have very specific reason why I wanted a .22lr rifle and for all firearms I buy(lets not get into knives thats whole other issue. Hi my name is hey15-22 and I have a knife problem).I can buy more guns, but I rather use disposable income for other hobbies.

As mentioned by JaPes, there are better options for hiking/camping/surval and accuracy. However, those don't fit some of my other requirements. And I really only need one .22lr at this moment. So I purchased the one firearm that filled the most needs at this time.

Trigger:
From almost all reports, the trigger on the 15-22 is ****(many good options available which is why the 15-22 is great). Yes a battle trigger is the main reason for this, but still not the best. Lots of creep and not a clean break.
From my understanding the Sig 522 trigger has zero creep and has a nice clean break. Win Sig

Speed: As someone mentioned, the 15-22 is amazingly light and it should be very quick at moving from target to target. It is really noticeable just handling it at the LGS. This would be a great for run and guns and speed drills.

Accuracy: I don't want to get into this too much as there is so much already on this site and many others.

Let's be honest here the 15-22 was built as a trainer/plinker. And S&W did an amazing job with that.
It was not built for accuracy(We are not talking about the PC version). Manufactures do not build bench rest guns with 16" barrels with battle triggers.

There are some great shooters on this board and many of them have had great success with the 15-22.

With that said:



The Sig felt great in my hands and I was really leaning towards it for many reasons already mentioned. The fit and finish was great. The reviews about its trigger, Black Dog magazines and it was way cheaper than the 15-22( I was only going to buy the MOE version)

I got the lighter gun for my wife, although I am sure she would have been fine with the Sig.

Actually that brings me to another part of my research. There is a woman that works at the LGS that I bought it from. She is about the same size of my wife. I asked her to handle both guns and give me her impression. She shoots a lot, but had not shot either gun. Instantly looking at her I realized the 15-22 had a much larger length of pull adjustment, especially towards the shorter side. That was a big decision maker for me. Plus the employee said hands down the 15-22.

Lastly: Flex/POI issues:
As noted earlier some of this is do to a lose barrel nut. However, there are many people reporting flex issues. They range from the use of bipods, to holding the mag well (causes malfunctions) and even temperature changing the POI. There is a big thread on this forum about it as well as many videos talking about these situations.

I read so many forums about so many topics and I rarely contribute. I am always amazed by the incredible step by step instructions with tons of detailed pictures on how to change your brakes, how to build a solar panel or how to make a barrel nut tool. I spend a lot of time researching any firearms purchase and just thought some might get something out of this. I tried to describe my reasons from a logical, well thought out process. I do not buy guns because my buddy has it or others online are hyping it.

With that said. I have to run. My ammo just got dropped off by UPS. Magazines got here yesterday. Tomorrow I can finally pick it up. 10 day wait period is ridiculous, especially when you already own other firearms.




Edit. P51 made a good point. The 15-22 is easy to break down and clean. I won't say its easier than the Sig, but I don't think it can get any better.

How can you comment on the accuracy of a firearm you've never even shot? You can't believe EVERYTHING that you read or someone tells you. This 15-22 has out performed itself to me. The accuracy issues you have mentioned are common issues that some shooters fail to realize at first. [Creative Spelling Not Allowed - phil ] like that happens. Put a scope on and tighten it finger tight. Without blue lock-tite, it will loosen itself. It's common maintenance to check these things. Reports of loose end caps have stated a drop in accuracy, but tightening it back up will improve accuracy 100%. Take care of the gun and it'll take care of you.

JaPes.
Thanks for your long reply. I hope the length of my posts don't scare people off. I know I skip long posts sometimes.

Yes, this is true. I knew this would be pointed out, but I was trying not to delve too deep.

For those who don't know. You can change the hand guard. You need to buy a special adapter and if I remember correctly you will only be able to use a free float hand guard with that adapter.

You will not be able to use any other type.

Mud,

I hope everyone takes care of their guns. Good point.

You are right, please don't believe everything you read/see online. The information I post here is just my perspective of the firearm. I feel that by what I have read and researched (I have talked to many who fired these firearms) and come to understand of the design warrants what I have posted.

If I have made glaring error about something, I am happy to fix it. However at this point I feel there is plenty of data out there that backs me up.

I declared I never fired the gun, but that does not mean what I have posted does not have merit. I have spent 3 months and hour and hours of reading/watching/talking before making this purchase. I just don't go buy something that someone says is amazing.

I never said you can't hit the side of a barn with the 15-22. I just stated that out of the box the Sig would most likely be more accurate, especially at distance.

Happy shooting.

I only have experience with the PC model myself. And while it was the most costly model in my case I needed it quick and a 10 rd mag had no waiting period in my state. Is it as accurate as my hi-$$$ Remington 597? No. But it is not bad either. It will do groups at 50 where all the holes touch at least so I was pleasently surprised. Installed a Nordic 1.62" modular alloy handguard and it seems to shoot tighter than when the polymer factory one was on. This sounds reasonable as now the barrel is tied into and securely bolted to a long metal assembly even if the polymer reciever is still in the mix. And the heavier handguard did not slow it down in speed steel competition either because grabbing it even farther down towards the end of the barrel seems to lock it in place much better. And a Geissele Super 3-Gun trigger (best action AR trigger) finished the job. Now I have started on my low cost 3-Gun AR with similar parts, Stag Arms 3-gun upper assembly, Aero Precision forged lower w/S3G trigger, Ergo F93 stock and pistol grip and 3 30 rd. PMAGs.
I also debated the 15-22 vs 522 issue but went in favor of the 15-22 because of the easy ability to upgrade many parts. Both are decent guns

I have a diffrent view point on the home defense option of any tatical .22 lr weapon. (especally with a 25 or so round mag) at the typical distance of a fire fight in a home location or on property you will be shooting under 50 feet many times 10 feet and under. so you wont need a sniper rifle. ammo capsity due to low light, high heart rate and over all pace of the encounter will help with misses. weight keeps you slightly more mobile pound per pound the less you carry the faster you can move and even the faster your reaction time will be. now as for the actual round of a .22 lr ask a local game warden what gun kills more of them every year? its not that 30-06, or that 9mm that guy had on his hip incase of a wild dog. no its .22 cal long rifle rounds. another aspect vs an ar shooting .223/5.56 or an ak family of weapon, with a .22 you dont have to worry about it penitrateing through yoru target and going through a wall and killing your friends kids for the most part where as those other rounds will go through some one and keep going. i work with a lot of military men and women in my job as a detention officer. they hated the idea of me buying a .22 cal ar style rifle. it wasnt a 5.56 or even a .223 why would any one want anything other then those for an ar. then they talked to me and found that i wasnt parden the term "releaveing myself into the wind" now many of them want to shoot it.

The ONLY way I would pick a .22-anything for a home defensive weapon is if that was all I could get my hands on!!! My house gun is a 16.5" barreled 12-gauge pump. The backup to that is a .40 S&W pistol.

Same deal with a .223 - lousy house gun due to massive overpenetration and way too wieldy.

Shooters need to take some self-defense courses from PROFESSIONALS, before picking defensive firearms, either house or carry.

There is an excellent forum, defensivecarry.com , that has some really good advice on there if you can pick thru the politics and opinions regarding all sorts of firearms and useage.

There are lots of threads on home defense, and pros and cons of shotguns vs. ARs vs. handguns.

What I have learned for home defense is that a)shotguns still have to be aimed. At a short distance, there is very little spread. b)5.56 rounds are frangible, and actually will break up more in going thru drywall than say your 9mm or .40, so less chance of hitting secondary targets. c)rifles are good if you are going to stay in your room but not to clear the house as it is easy for a bad to take your long weapon. a handgun is what you want walk around the house with. d)one of the most knowledgeable posters there really believes that an AR is the best for home defense, but he trains regularly, and e)if you are really serious, you need professional training.

Back on topic, the only issue I have with 22 rimfire for SD is that rimfire is not as reliable as centerfire. Too many times with my 22s (handguns and rifles), I have heard 'click' not 'boom'.

sorry to go off topic a bit. BTW, I think a great post by OP. Also, just adding to the mods, out of all the firearms forums, this is easily the best run on keeping to the topic and keeping personal stuff out. Great job.

I'm a member of DC and have been for some time.

not taking away from the mp15-22 which i love but a ruger charger would have more suited your needs--small to fit in a pack or bob ,25rd mags (same ones the 10/22 uses) comes with bipod ,scope rail--10 inch barrel --sort of a pistol -rifle hybrid good from up close out to 100yds

What flex??? Time to call in mythbusters?

Guy22

Some have stated from a loose end cap their accuracy drops. That is expected. Tighten it up, the accuracy comes back. Now for "flexing," that comes from the barrel being tied into the upper by a polymer handguard. I have personally never experienced this, nor do I believe it's true. Many people I have seen, heard, or talked to haven't had a problem with it.

I had the pleasure of shooting a Sig 522, great rifle, accurate and feeds well. The S&W M&P is also a great rifle, I'm a little partial to the M&P since training with it all these years. I guess what I really love is the adaptbility aspect of the AR design platform, one rifle can be made to over 100 different types based on shooting needs and requirements. Tactical sniper mode, high volume squad support mode to compact mode, you name it, the AR can be made to it. You won't find that in many other rifle design, way to go Mr. Stoner.

The M&P 15/22 just opened up the AR to a new level of fun with still the adaptbility of the full size brother. S&W did their homework, landed right on the money if you ask me. Also maintainance, is a breeze on the M&P 15/22, a function you won't find in other tactical 22. Kudos to Smith and Wesson. I would love to see the M&P go 17HMR or 22 WMR, can you imagine the flexibility of this platform.. Enjoy...

Nice thread, hey15-22! I enjoyed reading through your decision process because I go through the same laborious decision-making too. I guess by now you've picked up your 15-22 and I hope it's working well, though I'm sure it is. I would have picked it over the Sig as well.

I ended up buying the Colt M4 .22lr because I wanted something that looked and weighed about the same as a real M4, even with all its warts. Turned out to be a fine rifle just like the 15-22s I've shot. Just feed it the ammo it likes and you're GTG. Let us know how it works!

Don't worry, I haven't ignored S&W, I have three handguns and a stripped M&P-15 lower receiver I built up with a Daniel Defense upper receiver and other good components. I call it Dan Wesson!

Hear a bit about the weight of the M&P as compaired to the Colt or Sig. This only comes in play with military and some L.E. applications. In military, the AR is your wife/spouse what ever. It stays with you, on you, around you 24/7. You hump with it day in and day out, that is the only time weight is a factor. Civilians can add all the **** they want because it is only carried from the vehicle to a range, and if anyone is complaining about that, oh well, maybe shooting isn't there thang!

In fact weight helps the recoil down, more mass less movement. Our soldiers will find the lightest components to add to keep the weight down and even then they don't complain, because when the [Creative Spelling Of Profanity Not Allowed - phil] hits the fan, Miss Ar must perform her magic, weight and all.. Just my .02 cents....

I have both and use them for different reasons. I find the 522 to be more accurate and has a way better trigger out of the box. It is also constructed of higher quality materials and feels like an actual rifle (both in feel and weight) where as the 15-22 feels like a toy to me.

However, the 15-22 ergonomically speaking, matches my full size caliber AR's, so it's a great training tool. I did have to spend money to get the trigger where it needed to be on the 15-22 as the factory trigger was absolutely horrible. Also, as stated earlier, the mags on the M&P are proprietary and open on the sides vs. the BDM mags that the 522 uses which crosses over for usage in other .22 AR conversions like my spikes tactical dedicated .22 upper. However, the 15-22 mags seem like they would take more of a beating than the BDM mags. Just my opinion.

on a side note, the sig is more compact and transportable because of the folding stock. It fits in a much smaller bag vs. the 15-22. (unless you break it down)

They both have their place. Both have been reliable for me. The 522 has been 100% flawless thru over 10k rounds of bulk ammo. Not one hiccup!! The 15-22 has had the occasional fail to extract once or twice but nothing major.

I would say, get both!

I agree 100% about the use of a .22lr for home defense !!!

Modifying an argument in favor of .22 handguns for self defense:

When I told a buddy I got a 15-22 for self defense, he replied that the only thing that would do is p*ss the intruder off. I then said, "Well, in that case, I'll p*ss him off 25 times."

Another site said of various handgun rounds, that the only people who complain that the (insert caliber here - .22, .25, .32, .380) is not sufficient for self defense, have never been shot by them.

silly argument assuming you have time to fire all 25 rds of .22 while he's shooting at you with a .45. yes bigger is better but modern technology has gotten rounds to be more effective than they used to be so i would recommend at least a 9mm or .38 for self defense. of course, any weapon is better than no weapon but dont get overconfident with a fun gun.

__________________
od: xd9 3"&4", 15-22, 1911 .22

Good choice!!.. i am also not afraid to grab my 15-22 in a time of need.. i have quick but safe access to a 25rnd mag of Winchester He segmenting rounds and a mag loaded with stingers.. my 15-22 goes bang every time with higher quality ammo...
So that means at will i have 50 rounds capable of causing enough force an shock to stop someone quickly. That little 22 will mess some stuff up quickly.. 22lr is.notorious for ricochets chances are that one hipower round is gonna.penitrate hit a vital bounce off a bone hit same vital or another..
It takes 30? Lbs of force to penitrate enough to hit a organ.. is it the best choice? Not always will it work? For sure!! With the ability flr quick properly placed follow up shots

personnally i prefer to use my mossberg 500 for my home defense firearm.
several reasons why i think it works for me. i have no idea how many pellets there are in a shell with 00 buck,( i plan on counting one day), but i know i can not pull the trigger on a 15/22 that many times in such a short amount of time. it is located within arms length of where i sleep and is a rack away from being ready to fire.
i have tried just about every firearm i have to prove to myself my choice was a good one, including the 15/22. i simply can not load a mag, hit the bolt release and be on target as fast as i can with the mossberg. i do not want to take a chance on my being able to hit a target with one small projectile when a bunch of them "seems" to be a better choice.
i know most will not give a rats rearend about my oppinion, as we all know the best oppinion is our own. when it comes to protecting the ones i care deeply about, i want to be as quick as i can. my back up plan is a wife that is deadly accurate with a s/w 357.

__________________
is it just me?

It's all about shot placement. If you miss with any gun it's better to hit with a .22.

As for home defense, bullet selection is important. I prefer a 5.56 over a 12 guage for home defense, but I live in a brick and mortar house. All firearms over penetrate in a house with drywall. Selecting a frangible or soft tip 5.56mm round is better than using M193 or heaven forbid M855. I'm quite happy using my 7.62x39mm for home defense, but then I'm not running M43 rounds in it either.

Shotguns are too user intensive for home defense IMHO. You're only gonna get one chance at it or it may cost you your life. The manual manipulation between each round is too easy to mess up. The slow reload means if you need more than your 6, you are in trouble. The weight of the gun is too high when compared to an AR. And you do still need to aim the thing. At most indoor ranges the shot will still be in one clump.

The AR user interface is aim and fire for 30 rounds, mag changes are quick. Up close 5.56mm is a good cartridge, practice is easier and will probably done more than the 12 guage.

For the .22 for home defense I'd probably stick with Stingers or a Hyper Velocity load that was reliable in the gun. Long range accuracy isn't an issue at 7m. Just remember the sight offset.

As for light weight .vs heavier guns, Really? While I might not hump my AR through mountains..... oh wait, I do. It's called hiking. Duh. As do hunters.

Also it depends on the type of shooing you are doing. I use my 15/22 for 3 gun matches, and the lighter the gun the faster it moves between targets and the less inertia there is to overcome to stop it on target. The .22 recoils so little that weapon weight will not make a difference to recoil management.

As I said a year ago, my only concern with the 22lr round is that it doesn't always go bang. I wish there was some study that had % misfire, ftf, etc vs. a centerfire round.

I think quickness and accuracy are most important. You read all the time about a shootout at 10 feet where of 20 shots nobody get's hit, or just 1 hit.

Agree with Pirobro post.

I agree 100%.

I trust my 870 over anything for HD. I use 00 buck and #4. The side saddle has 3 slugs and 3 more 00. I don't plan on ever using the slugs, but they're there.

I've put three not so well placed rounds into the same gopher and he still didn't die right away. That can't happen with 9 pellet 00 buck or #4, there's nothing left of it after the first shot.

I hope you mean 18.5 inch.

__________________
CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

I don't use my .22 as a primary defensive weapon, but if it is all I had I would use it.

That being said I wouldn't suggest anyone gets a .22 or any description as a self defense weapon.

I know I'm not going to change anyone's opinion, but whatever weapon you chose to defend your family with, practice practice practice. And get good training with it. Then practice more.

You'll probably never need a firearm to defend yourself, but if you do you'll have the rest of your life to do it correctly.

KBK

I had this debate when the so called tactical 22s started arriving on dealers shelves. I bought all three, the Colt/Umarex M4, the Sig 522 and the S&W M&P15-22. Now of those three if I had to narrow it down to just one it would be an easy choice, the M&P15-22. The Colt IMO is poorly designed junk, it looked cool but try taking one down for cleaning. The Sig 522 is a very good rifle with my only dislike is that the bolt doesn't lock open on the last shot. Otherwise it's an accurate and reliable rifle. The M&P15-22 is everything I want out of this type of rifle. It is extremely well designed and built and I just love the feel of it. It is the only rifle of the three that operates and takes down as it's centerfire big brother and since I love ARs it's the natural choice.
Some people here have touched on using a 22 for home defense and again IMO it would be an excellent choice. In my 31 years in law enforcement I've seen many people done in quite effectively with a 22. Ever wonder why the 22 is the calibre of choice for OC hitmen? Smith & Wesson hit a home run with the M&P15-22 and it has earned a well deserved reputation since it release.

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Yup, typo!

Nice post, picked my for training and ammo cost

If it's such an excellent choice, did your department mandate you carry something in .22 LR? I'm betting not. If you could choose your duty firearm, did you carry a .22? Bet not. There's not a single LE department in this country that issues .22s as a duty firearm.

The 22 LR is a favorite of hit men only on TV. When the so-called hit men do use it, it's because of the relatively low noise level and nothing more. The only worse SD round than a .22 LR is a .25 ACP.

Advice like your's will get some ignorant homeowner killed.

Really, and what's your background? Have you ever investigated a homicide scene? Ofcouse no PD would ever issue a 22 but I know several officers who carried 22s as backups and as off duty firearms. What I recommend to anyone for home defense is to utilize what you shoot well and are comfortable with, if it's a 22 so be it. You go on to say that the 22 LR is a favorite of hit men only on TV, I'd say those TV shows reflect that accurately. I respectfully disagree with you.

We'll agree to disagree, then.

Here's some data to chew on.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

Cops don't always know what is best. Many of them aren't even "gun people".

5.56mm is a marginal round. Think about it, in the hunting world it is used for 30-40lbs animals. Not 200lbs aggressive attackers. The .22LR? It is a mouse gun. Literally. Look how many people use it for squirrels.

Even if hitmen do use .22LR (here in Africa it is 7.65 Tokarev, 9x18mm Makerov, 9x19mm Para or full auto assault rifle fire) a contact shot with a .22 to an unsuspecting victim is very different than shooting an aggressive, motivated attacker.

Look at the DC sniper event. Most were single shot kills with a 5.56mm. Unsuspecting victims. Look at the reports of the 5.56mm being a bad combat round and how many times people need to be shot with it to put them down.

A .22 can kill. So can a glass of water. You are in more danger of drowning in the sea though.

I personally prefer erring on the side of having enough. A .22 is not that. It is better than nothing, but I'd want something like a 9x19mm equivalent, a 5.56mm equivalent or a 12 guage equivalent.

There is a reason that is what is used by most armies.

KBK

I know we have wondered a little of topic in this thread and ofcourse we can agree to disagree. The moderators link to this very interesting article is a good read.

I love his conclusions. Handguns suck, use a rifle.

Never a truer word spoken.

KBK

The thing about .22lr is shot placement. If you are skilled (and accurate) enough shooting it then it has the potential to be a lethal round.

A good sniper has the time and the data available to them that they can use most rounds in a lethal capacity. In 2002 a Canadian Army corporal used a bullet designed to be shot out of a machine gun to kill a Taliban combatant at more than 2,500 yards.

http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-ri...cal-tac-50.php

And Israeli snipers used a suppressed Ruger 10/22 rifle in a limited role.

http://www****ger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm

Is it as lethal as a .500S&W between the eyes? I don't think so... but in the right hands anything is possible!

But are your hands the right hands? Just because some super elite unit can do it does not mean anyone can.

There are also very strict places where the Israeli's use the .22. IIRC it is during protest marches when colatteral damage limitation is the criteria to be met. They specifically use the .22 because of its low lethality.

The Israelis also use bolt action slug shotguns as sniper rifles.
No one is saying .22 can't kill. It just isn't the best round to use.

I think my point was that it CAN be used as a lethal round.

.50bmg may not be the best round to use either... and we know that it's also been used successfully. As a firearms instructor once told me "the goal is to take the BG down and keep him down".

And in that regard I think a .22 has potential to do that. I personally can't imagine trying to wrap myself around a corner with a 16-inch or 18-inch barrel... but if that's what is available to me then so be it.

There are two kinds of people who talk about Self Defense shooting: those who make sure they have the proper tool to do the job right the first time and those who say, "if that's all I have, I'll make do."

The latter often winds up on the losing side of the encounter - dead. Your life; your choice.