The wife and I are really Itching to get 15-22 pistols. Since they have been discontinued, they are impossible to find. Been checking the usual gun auction sites, but Nothing. Anybody know where they are available?

I don't know if you heard but there was apparently a open invitation to all the owners of the M&P pistol to attend a 3 day cruise and shoot a few months back. Apparently everyone who owned one showed up. As a result the ship listed to one side from the weight of all the ammo and pistols that had to secured in their vault. They have all been lost to the sea.

I am also looking to buy one. I would pay a good price too.

I have one im actually trying to sell, you dont want to pay my price though...


$1,500....

Can't you make one by cutting the barrel and quad rail then removing the fake buffer tube. Isn't that the only difference? Once the tube is removed it's no longer a rifle so the barrel can be made shorter. Are there any laws to prevent this?

Nope! You were fine until you got to the part about cutting the barrel. It started life as a rifle, so if you cut the barrel it then becomes a Short Barrel Rifle. It must be then registered as such through the BATFE and you must pay a $200 transfer tax. There are other details in between those two steps, but you see where this is going. With the way "things" are going right now, TheLandonMac's $1500 price tag may not be too far out of line!

I've actually turned DOWN $1500......way too much FUN!!!!

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I'd never pay $1500 for any .22 LR unless it were an olympic gold medal winning rifle.

I would have guessed that once the stock was "permenently" removed it would not longer be classified as a rifle. If the total rifle length is too short from cutting the tube it's a illegal rifle too. Couldn't the rifle be de-butted and reclassified somehow? I don't know gunsmithing law. How do you know for sure it cannot be removed legally?

There is an ATF letter around somewhere that somewhat clarifies the rifle and pistol conversion process...although I can't find it right off hand.

What I'm going to give examples of is with an AR style platform since it's easy to change because of the upper/lower receiver. It would work the same with rebarreling and action of a firearm where the upper doesn't quickly detach and reattach.

If a firearm starts it's life as an pistol, it can then have a longer barrel attached to it and it's still a pistol. If the barrel is long enough and then you add a shoulder stock to it and meets the barrel and overall length requirements, it becomes a rifle. After this, the stock can be removed and it's a pistol again. After this step the barrel could be changed to be shorter than required for a rifle, as it is again a pistol. If the barrel and overall length are too short before the shoulder stock comes off, it's a short barreled rifle and subject to NFA regulations ($200 making/transfer tax, etc. - stiff fines/penalties for illegal posession)

If a firearm starts it's life as a rifle it can't be converted to a pistol. It can be converted to a short barreled rifle (NFA, $200, etc.)

If a firearm starts it's life as an "other" (not an NFA item Any Other Weapon or AOW), it can be built into either a rifle or pistol. This is usually the stripped lower. If it's built into pistol first it can be converted back and forth per the example above. If it is built into a rifle first it is a rifle unless you go through the NFA process to make it a short barreled rifle. Because an "other" can be built into a pistol, an FFL cannot transfer it to a person under 21 years of age.

As far as I know S&W have not sold stripped lowers. The lower receiver for the pistol also doesn't have the "buffer tube" and stock, so it would be difficult to attach a stock to it to make a pistol into a rifle with that model. Because of the way the stock is defined, in a standard AR the buffer tube alone without a stock doesn't count as a stock, which is why you can have an AR pistol (the buffer tube is integral in the function of a standard AR). Since the "buffer tube" of the 15-22 isn't required for use of the firearm, I'm not sure if having a "buffer tube" would count as a stock or not on a pistol as it isn't integral to the function.

So it would be very difficult to make a 15-22 pistol into a rifle if you wanted it to be dual duty since it doesn't have the "buffer tube." And it would be difficult to make a 15-22 rifle into a pistol as you would have to make it an NFA item. It would also have to retain the "buffer tube" making it not an exact clone of the 15-22 pistol.

If S&W happened to sell the stripped lowers in pistol form (without "buffer tube"), it would pretty much only be useful as a pistol -- unless someone were to figure out a way to attach a buffer tube and stock with the proper integrity. If they happened to sell stripped lowers in rifle form (with "buffer tube") it would mimic a standard AR pistol/rifle conversion process, so long as you built it as a pistol first.

I feel like you just wasted a lot of time...are you unaware of what this thread is about??

smith&wesson makes the 15-22 pistols...nobody was talking about making one of their own..or converting anything at all..

I feel like you didn't read the entire thread...try again. Also, quoting my entire post wasted a lot of space.

The pistol is discontinued and at a premium price from what I read (you said $1500, right).

You apparently didn't read ESW's posts. He did inquire about converting a rifle to pistol to save money from having to buy the discontinued pistol at a premium price. It's possible if you make an SBR, but that comes with restrictions and hassle. Cheaper than buying the pistol version though.

Because what he was insinuating was potentially illegal, I was hoping to explain why it would be and the alternatives, as well as their potential advantages and disadvantages.

Another classic case of posting before reading...

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-Dik

Weird thing is I recently inquired with the Smith&Wesson company Historian regarding Serial #'s and total number of units made for that one year period.
He said the Company is not releasing that info.
Is that unusual??

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Good info above.

For the record S&W, from what I learned makes a converter. You can remove the rear plug that holds the sling mount on the pistol and insert a metal component that accepts a standard, threaded AR buffer tube, which allows you to add a stock. It's pretty slick and make the M&P 15-22 look more like a real ar-15.

I am pretty sure that isn't legal.
That would make it an SBR (or AOW depending on config.), paperwork and ATF approval needed.
There is no workaround on these laws.
10 years in Fed Pen is just not worth it.

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I don't think SW made that converter. There was someone here who made them, or made one, specifically for an SBR project.

KBK

The only way that converter would be useful for something other than an SBR would be if you did have an extra upper with a long barrel that could be swapped out. Or if you at least had an extra full lenth barrel that you swapped into the upper before attaching the stock. It is possible, just a hassle.

I give up..................

Sir, I strongly suggest you read up on the National Firearms Act, what it covers and the penalties for violating it. Your lack of knowledge is dangerous to your freedom.

No matter what you turn a rifle into, it was originally a rifle and will STILL be a rifle as far as the NFA is concerned.

Not saying you are incorrect, I'm actually asking the question, but isn't the lower registered, meaning you can't really change anything without a stamp? Or does the stock matter as long as the barrel is over 18.5" or whatever? Maybe I just didn't understand you fully, if so, my apologies.

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-Dik

I honestly believe, contrary to what Smith and Wesson claims, that poor sales were not the problem with the pistol, rather all the headaches it caused them because of this very NFA issue associated with it.

ADMIN...Can we lock or delete this thread??????

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Certified Infidel

I'm not sure I understand your question completely. Once you create an SBR by registering it as an NFA item and paying the tax, it doesn't matter if you have a stock attached or not, or how long the barrel is...actually, you may not be able to go shorter than the length you registered it as when you created it, or you may at least have to keep a barrel around that is that length.

The whole thing is fairly convoluted and tough to follow because of the ATF. If you live in a place that an SBR is allowed and can follow all the rules that come with that, it is the most effective way to switch back and forth.

There are a bunch of other little details that could come up as well, like transporting across state lines and moving it in a non NFA configuration. I can go through some of the details if you're interested.

As far as whether it was poor sales or NFA issues that caused S&W to stop making them, I'm not sure. Because they had no easy way to attach a stock with the "buffer tube" removed, it would have been a lot of trouble make it into an SBR...at least until this adapter that was mentioned was created.

One big potential issue I could see on the S&W pistol from the factory is that it comes with a quad rail. That would make it extremely easy for someone to attach a vertical foregrip and become an accidental felon.

Yes. Absolutely.

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The lower IS the firearm; it's the part with the serial number. If the lower was originally a rifle, it will remain so until hades freezes over, no matter what you do to the stock or attach as an upper.

Right, I understand that part, I just took what was said before as trying to add the buffer tube adapter to a registered pistol lower. If you add a stock to a pistol, doesn't it require it to be AOW? Like the adapters you can put your railed pistol into, you can buy two of the models with no paperwork, but the other has a folding stock so it has to get AOW approval. Again, I could be wrong (as usual), just trying to understand.

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-Dik

I believe adding a shoulder stock to a pistol makes it a short barreled rifle, if you haven't already added a long barrel. What doesn't work is removing a shoulder stock from a rifle and then shortening the barrel -- that would still be a rifle with a short barrel and regulated as such.

As far as an any other weapon (AOW), a short barreled shotgun with a pistol grip is an AOW, as long as it was manufactured without a stock to begin with. Also, a pistol with a forward vertical grip is an AOW, which would be extremely easy to make with the original 15-22 pistol, but very illegal without submitting the paperwork to the ATF and paying the tax; $200 to make an AOW, but only $5 to transfer. An SBR and other Title II items are $200 to make or transfer.

Sorry if this has taken a turn and been a bit derailed from the original question of where to find an 15-22 pistol. But when the subject of making one came up I think it really needed to be addressed so someone doesn't accidentally do something very illegal. Short of paying the high price of a factory version of the pistol, the easiest and possibly slightly less expensive way would be to make an SBR out of a full size 15-22 rifle. There is still an expense, wait time, and set of conditions that doing that would entail, but for some people it might be worth it.

This is why I will NOT sell mine for $1500.....
No headaches.
Since S&W won't release the info, does anybody have a "guesstimate" on the total #'s produced?

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no clue but I sure have wanted one for a long time. Who makes the one on plinker tacticals website or is that one of the GRAIL guns also?

Plinkers looks like a factory one... with maybe Knight rail covers?

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I was not suggesting you run a short barrel. You can buy a longer barrel. I was just an observation. They make a converter, to make it a rifle.

But you still cannot create a rifle from a pistol, without gobs of paperwork.
BTW, S&W does not make a converter, some guy on YouTube did/does.

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Wise guy. You always have the most definative opinion. I see your name on every thread and guess who is always wrong, everyone but you. Notice my quesion marks. They look like this > ? I have been asking questions. Have you ever been in a conversation or are you always too busy teaching others?

In my last post I was referring to turning a pistol into a rifle, by adding a stock with a buffer tube and a longer barrel (of course, I assume everone made that leap), not vice versa.

My "lack of knowledge" is not dangerous to me, I'm asking questions, I am not cutting down my rifle. I have zero interest in converting my rifle into a pistol. I did however find the converter cups and I was told they were made by S&W, but who knows there are plenty of liars on the internet.

I have beaten my breast, prostrated myself on the floor and all that other nonsense. As for anything else, tough.

Can someone please guess how many were made?

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This was my understanding, you just said it a lot simpler.

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-Dik

Beyond the arguing........ If your looking for one check out
GUNBROKER 15-22 Pistol

Now that I own one I will tell you there are 4 more after I
bought mine tonight.

Yep, 4 of the lovelies are up there.
Good luck!
You guys would HATE me if you knew what I got mine for!

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ser# on the one I picked up was over 4000

Thats ok just to get one is awesome. And I still got a smokin
deal on my XDs Bi-tone so I cant bitch about paying 2005
Harley Davidson prices

I don't think this is correct. You can make a rifle from a pistol, but cannot make a pistol from a rifle without the paperwork and stamp. And technically, you're not making a pistol from a rifle, but rather a short barreled rifle or "weapon made from a rifle."

Think of it like this: You have a pistol, it has no shoulder stock and a barrel that is 6" long (for this exmple). If you add a shoulder stock to the pistol it is a rifle with a 6" barrel, and that would be regulated as a short barreled rifle. But what if you change the barrel on the pistol to a 16" barrel, still without a stock -- it's still a pistol, it's quite unwieldy though. Now if you add a stock to that pistol with the 16" barrel and the overall length of the firearm is long enough (over 26" total), it's really just a rifle because it meets that definition.

Now for a rifle that starts with a barrel over 16" and an overall length of over 26", if you change either of those features, it doesn't become a pistol, it becomes a "weapon made from a rifle" and those are regulated by the NFA. In the eyes of the law and the ATF, if it started as a rifle, it will always be a rifle (this is what MajorLK pointed out), it will either be a regular rifle, or a "short barreled rifle" or "weapon made from a rifle" (same thing, different wording).

This is where it becomes important to know what the firearm started as, because the rifle has to stay a rifle. But the pistol started as a pistol, was changed in form and function to be a rifle, but is still a pistol at heart -- so the stock can be removed and the barrel put back to it's shorter configuration.

I really hope that all makes sense. It takes a lot to wrap your head around it, doesn't make a lot of sense at first, but over time it becomes slightly less muddy.

*I'm not a lawyer. I read a lot of ATF documentation, opinion letters, and other forums and website made by people that are also not lawyers. Although some of them are firearms professionals, such as manufactureres and dealers. Take it with a grain of salt, but the above is my understanding.

Yes, I was mistaken.

But I believe you have to re-stamp with name and new serial #, and I don't believe you can reconfigure backwards (pistol) without re-approval?? (Tax and Stamp)

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Because of the wording of the definition of a pistol, you can turn a rifle back into a pistol after it had been configured as a rifle.

The tax and engraving only has to be done when making the rifle into a short barreled rifle. You don't need a new serial number, you can reuse the factory number, but you do need to engrave your name or corporation or trust name, and location of manufacture.

A short barreled rifle can also be taken out of short barrel configuration and not be considered an nfa item temporarily. If you want to make it permanently a non nfa item it's best to notify the atf to remove it from the registry...but to change it back after that you have to pay again.

Ok so you can make a pistol into a SBR (with gobs of paperwork/stamp) by adding a stock, can leave a pistol as a pistol with any length barrel as long as it doesn't have a VFG, and a rifle lower will stay a rifle lower no matter what. Do I have this right?

So you can only change a SBR into a pistol if it started as a pistol to begin with?

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-Dik

ATF.GOV

Don't take anyone else's word for it.

(BTW you can have a Magpul AFG on a pistol, legally, according to the ATF&E)

KBK

Yes, a pistol can be made into an SBR. Essentially all you'd be doing is adding a stock though. That would take a tax stamp and paperwork.

A pistol is a pistol as long as it doesn't have a stock. With a vertical foregrip it would be an any other weapon and regulated under the NFA.

A rifle is a rifle. If it's a short barrel rifle it's regulated under the NFA.

You wouldn't change a short barreled rifle back into a pistol generally. If you had a pistol, then registered it as an SBR (paid the tax etc.), you could turn it back into a pistol by removing it from the NFA registry. To do that you'd put it back into pistol configuration and notify the ATF. But that would be kind of a waste of $200. After writing that, I'm actually not sure...you can temporarily make an SBR into a full size rifle, but I don't know that you can temporarily make it into a pistol...but it definitely would have had to start as a pistol for that to even be a potential option.

Most people aren't too concerned with being able to have a single lower that can be either a pistol or a rifle. Once you want a short barreled rifle you usually just get a rifle and pay the tax and don't worry about it being a pistol. You can essentially make it pistol size when it's an SBR. The issue once it's an SBR is travel across state lines and illegal transfer to people that aren't allowed to possess it since they aren't a part of the paperwork involved.


This is true, the ATF hasn't classified an angled foregrip as a vertical foregrip.

Here are the two documents that are most useful for this subject from the ATF:
ATF NFA Weapons Guide

Definitions and examples of changing from pistol to rifle and back

I carry the ATF Letter(S) regarding the AFG in my gun case just in case!!!

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One other note about all this rifle to SBR and pistol to rifle and back to pistol business...it's really only feasible when you have extra upper receivers and barrels available, and also unbuilt stripped lower receivers. Until they're provided by S&W or as an aftermarket item, the best bet is to either pay the premium for the pistol, or create an SBR from a full rifle by paying the tax and cutting off the fake buffer tube and shortening the barrel. For the regular AR platform with all kinds of uppers and stripped lowers available, converting back and forth is a more realistic goal.

If you want a 15-22 with a stock and a short barrel, you have to go the SBR route and pay the tax.

There's one on GB right.


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you cannot put a vertical fore grip on a pistol? Why?