How do i get a new, shorter barrel?
Do i need to have the original cut?
Can I have it shortened and the add a permanent suppressor?
Any recommendations on gunsmiths?

Suggestions, ideas, caveats?? all appreciated, thanks

File a $200 ATF form 1, get approval in about 6 - 8 months and send the barrel to a machinist for cutting and threading. If you want to add a suppressor then you need a $200 ATF form 4 approval. Now, consider getting a "real" AR 15 and made it a SBR with a dedicated 22LR short barrel upper and you can also use the same lower for all the caliber uppers you can put on an AR and you spend no more $$$ other than caliber options. 5.56, 300 Blackout etc.

You want an sbr and a fixed suppressor?

Sounds like you want an integral supressor. There is almost no point in getting an sbr and then fixing a suppressor to it (esp on a 22 where you want the suppressor to be serviceable) - adding a 7" suppressor to your barrel (fixing it, ie non removable) means you could have a barrel that is 9" long and still be legal.

And it doesn't take 6-7 months for the paperwork...

If you are serious, get a trust (I used 199trust.com, they now cost $79) first.

If you want an integral suppressor, check out innovative arms. They will take your upper and barrel, cut it to about 10", and then weld a 16" outer tube which their suppressor screws into. The cost is about $600-650, which is roughly what it would cost you to purchase a suppressor and have your barrel cut/threaded.

You will only need 1 NFA tax stamp in this case, for the suppressor. You would not be making an sbr even though the barrel is 10" because the suppressor tube is welded to the barrel and is 16", thus you have a 16" barrel....

NOW, if you want an sbr and a non fixed suppressor, you would file an NFA form 1, submit $200. This form, once approved, allows you to make a short barrel rifle. You can then send the barrel off for cutting and re threading. ADCO is often recommended.

At any point in time, go to your local gun store that sells suppressors. Ask for a user servicable 22 suppressor. Buy said suppressor, and the LGS will submit an NFA form 4 (and you get to pay another $200).

Each form results in a 'stamp', and generally costs $200. By getting a trust, the stamps are owned by the trust, and not YOU. This simplifies the process of obtaining NFA items, and often shortens the wait time.

Note, I have 2 15-22.. One uses a stainless steel sparrow suppressor. The other is an innovative arms integral. Both are great, but I give the slight nod to the integral since it keeps the rifle short and gives good balance (great for the wife and kids). The sparrow, however, can be used on other threaded rifles/pistols.

I hope this helps

Another Happy Member Of The SBR Family

Observations in shooting my 15-22 as an SBR

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FIRST find out if your city/state allows SBR. If not then there's no point in going further.

If it's legal you need to file the right paperwork with the NFA which takes between 6 months to a year to get approval. Cost is $200. You must follow the instructions to the letter. It can and will be denied for not following the instructions. For instance if you're name is Robert but you go by Bob you must still write Robert and NOT Bob or even Rob. So read all the instructions carefully. Don't forget to get fingerprints and correct size photo. A photocopy of your DL will not do.

After you get the approval you can then send it out to have the barrel cut down. If you want a suppressor you will need to file again with the NFA with another $200. You can file both at the same time but each paperwork is for an individual thing and you cannot combine the two.

There is no point in adding a permanent suppressor. They are not forever and wear out after certain amount of ammo is shot. You also have to clean them. So if it's on permanently you don't have the option of shooting without one on. There may also be legal issues if you cut the barrel and then permanently add a suppressor.

Not anymore. My last form 4 was approved in less than 3 months. Looking at nfatracker, that seems to be the new norm for corporations or trusts. My Sparrow that I bought last year took around 6 months, I think. They have gotten much faster. I have another Sparrow in jail & will be coming up on 3 months in about 3 weeks.

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From what I've been told it seems the fast turnaround time is only on trusts and corps. Filing under yourself is still up to a year. The last one I did was in 2010 and that took 5 months I believe

I can't think of any reason to file as an individual. Corporations & trusts are just so much simpler & quicker. Yes, there is a bit of extra cost is setting one up but as you collect more & more stamps, that cost gets spread out.

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I don't know. I only did it the one time for an SBR. I've been debating on a suppressor but then I'd need to change sights on my guns. There are some suppressors that don't require tall sights but they cost a lot. I'm just not sure it's worth it financially

I just use a Sparrow on my 15-22s & there is no need to change sights. The Sparrow, and I though most rimfire suppressors, fit inside the handguard.

As far as financially, only you can determine that. Only thing I will state is NOTHING is better than shooting suppressed. Not even close. Take away every other accessory I have & no huge deal. There will be a HUGE fight if you want to take my suppressors. Don't even watch videos of a 300 Blackout shooting suppressed. I made the mistake of doing so & that set me back some serious bucks for a new upper for my AR and a Saker 762 suppressor.

A suppressed 22 is a game changer when shot with subsonic ammo. No longer any need for hearing protection & it can greatly increase the number of locations one can shoot. I have a home range but will only shoot suppressed there otherwise it bothers my horses & dogs. With a suppressor, the horses will graze right next to me while shooting. Also, IMO there is no better trainer for inexperienced shooters than a suppressed 15-22. No kick & very quiet makes for big smiles when training the inexperienced. Quite a few really good suppressors out there. I suggest getting a stainless one that is easily broken down for cleaning. They are all plenty quiet; some are just easier to clean than others.

Only thing that enhances shooting suppressed is going with a SBR. That really helps the weight, balance & looks. I initially tried a real short barrel but settled on an 11" one. With Sparrow attached, that brings the gun back to carbine length again.

Also, regarding permanently attaching a suppressor to bypass the SBR stamp, I just recently found a new reason not to do so. A few nights ago the coyotes were just going crazy real close to our house, causing my dogs to bark unceasingly. So I walked down to the bottom pasture in the dark with my suppressed SBR 15-22. I took it because I keep a light attached to it. Well I couldn't sneak up on the coyotes to take out any but as a last resort I unscrewed the Sparrow & let loose with a full magazine. After that, the coyotes found somewhere else to howl & I slept just fine.

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Up here in Canada there is no paperwork for sbr.
Only factor is a barrel must be factory made and not cut down past 18.5" iirc.
Thats for centerfire.
For rimfire, barel has to be longer than 4.5", factory made and an overall legth of 26" to be non restricted. The 15-22 is restricted anyway because its deemed a AR verient. So there is no overall length.
So I wanted a shorter 10" barrel. Had to buy one from the UK.
Thus my rifle collapsed is 22" Worth every penny!

Not to disillusion you, but... NFA Tracker is currently showing individual submissions taking between 90-120 days. That's 3-4 months, not 6-12. See the attached thumbnail.... Still, the number of submissions as individuals is much less than that of trusts or corporations. In this case, there is a reason for the onslaught of trust submissions for NFA items. Doing it as an individual offers exactly 0 benefits. You might say that it will cost less - perhaps.. To get my fingerprints and LEO signoff would cost ~$50. So, after your second one, a trust costs less.

Also, most suppressors do not 'wear out' unless you have a baffle strike. Consider it like a muffler that DOESN"T sit out in the rain, snow, etc, isn't (generally) subjected to salt, rocks, etc. Cared for properly, suppressors can be handed down to the next generation.

Also, something that hasn't been stated WRT SBRs... Annual permission is required to cross state lines with one. And that's permission for each and every state that you want to shoot in. That may or may not be an issue for some folks (RedNeck Jim- who shoots in his backyard)... It's an annoyance more than anything, but a requirement, nonetheless. Note, you do not need to request permission to transport a suppressor across state lines.

Cheers!

Attached Images

nfatracker.jpg (50.7 KB, 50 views)

So what are the advantages of a trust?

1) You don't need to get LEO signoff or fingerprinted. There is a pending executive order '41P' which seems to be in permanent hold. This EO attempts to 'close' the loophole of trusts not requiring LEO signoff. However, until and unless this goes into effect, trusts do not require LEO signoff. There are MANY known cases where LEO will NOT sign off on obtaining an NFA item. Some states have recently passed 'shall sign' legislation requiring LEO signoff, but it's not mandatory otherwise.

2) Multiple holders. Since my wife and I are trustees, either one of us can take/use any of the NFA items. If I, as an individual, owned the SBR/Suppressor, then she could only use them IN MY PRESENCE. Likewise, the trust can be amended at any time to add/remove trustees or grantees (people that are allowed to use, but NOT allowed to modify the trust, ie, add or remove items/people).

3) Beneficiaries: The trust can name beneficiaries. That means that you can easily pass on your NFA items to the next generation without transferring the item.

4) Cannot be 'seized'. Trust assets cannot be seized or have a lien put on them from a financial perspective. Obviously, if it's used in a crime, it can be seized as evidence.

5) Submission of new Form 1/Form 4 items can be done ELECTRONICALLY via eForms (currently Form 4s are disabled due to system overload...)

6) Trust submissions take less time (generally) to be approved

I'm sure that there are others. These are simply off the top of my head.

Just to be perfectly clear for folks not currently possessing NFA items, such as a suppressor or SBR. It is a federal crime to not properly control access of these items and there may be laws governing the transportation between states. These items are really cool and helpful however the laws are not to be trifled with. As stated, the item has to stay in the possession & control of the individual, shareholders of the corporation or trustees/grantees of the trust. It has to be in his/their control 100% of the time. It is not like a gun that can be loaned out or borrowed.

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Correct. I as an individual cannot lend an NFA item to my friend. If he wants to use it I have to be with him and the paperwork has to accompany me (the NFA item) as well

There is discussion regarding this. Some state the forms should be in your possession. Others state you just have to be able to show them when prompted by the proper authorities.

I prefer not to spend any time in jail while the forms are being procured, so I always have mine available... digitally. I have a separate folder on my iPhone for the pdf or jpg of each & every form. Besides that, assuming I lost my phone or it was damaged, i keep the same images on a mostly private blog where anyone with internet access can view the forms. I used to keep physical copies of the forms, some greatly reduced in size, but no longer do so.

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I know the discussion well and also don't want to spend time in jail.....because being promted by the authorities can be at the range or on fhe way to....so I just bring the paperwork along with me.

This is not a legal requirement, as far as I know - I don't believe there is anything in the law that states you must keep the document on your person at all times.

It may be a requirement for the range to ensure that you have a legally owned item (for insurance purposes, for example). But, in general, these are TAX STAMPS, indicating that you have paid the TAX.

As it is a TAX, technically, I believe only the BATFE is authorized to request to see your stamp. Kinda like only the IRS can ask to see your federate income tax returns...

I do not travel with my stamps or my Form 20 (permission to cross state lines with an SBR). I keep electronic COPIES on my phone/iPad, but the originals are kept safe.

I have never been asked to show my stamps. I've shot next to CBP agents, LE, Military, etc. The only ones to bat an eye at the items are the ones who have never seen/shot an SBR or a suppressor.

In fact, I brought my SBR+Suppressor into my LGS one day; two local LE happened to be in there at the time. I told the officer it was legal, etc, and he said 'I don't really care', followed by pure, unadulterated fawning over the rifle.....

State and Local law enforcement are under no requirement to enforce FEDERAL LAW.

There in lay the problems. INTERPRETATION!

The range doesn't ask for the paperwork I just bring it with me. The way I understand it is that the paperwork (for those who dont know - it's just one piece of paper with your info and photo and an actual stamp) is what allows me to have it. Otherwise anyone can just cut the barrel and have at it since BATFE doesn't ever go around checking randomly at ranges. (I don't count home cause that's where everything is to begin with).

But aside from that I just don't want to take the chances. You and I know what happens when you argue with cops. If say one were to ask me about the paperwork and I tell him that he is not required to check do you think he'll just leave? More likely he'll leave with the firearm and me in the back seat to sort this out at the police station while I wait in lockup

eFile your Form 1 on a trust and get your approved Form 1 back in 30-45 days...

DO NOT BUILD YOUR SBR UNTIL YOU RECEIVED YOUR APPROVED AND STAMPED FORM 1.

Here's a recent pic of mine along with my 22c...both are suppressed...my barrel was cut down to 5" and threaded. I had mine done locally. Any competent machinist who knows what they're doing can get it done:



Do NOT add a permanent suppressor or anything else...you'll want to use your suppressor on more than one gun.

I didn't read all the replies so I may have echoed other comments...

Once you go suppressed SBR you won't wanna go back...

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M&P's and K Frames Pleeze!

Just for the record...those days are no longer.

Electronic F1s and paper F4s have almost met at the 90-day mark when looking at applications by an entity. I've seen the F1s take ~80 days recently and F4s come back in just under 90.

Still beats 6-8 months for an individual filing, though...

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M&P's and K Frames Pleeze!

How did you manage to get that short barrel on your 15-22

legally, as Neil at Suffolk Rifle only cuts down standard 15-22

barrels, so the barrel you have is not a short factory made

one ?

Keith

See my earlier post. Even individual submissions are returning in 90-120 days, only slightly longer than trust submissions. Still better to get a trust in both the short and long term, again, for reasons previously posted.

If you call NFA branch today, the recording says if it has been over 6 months, they will do a more thorough investigation as to the status.

Consider a barrel length under 5 inches if you'd like to shoot standard bulk ammo subsonic. Great fun.

Yes, but keep in mind shooting HV ammo is considerably louder than subsonic... no matter the barrel length. I tried a 4.5" barrel and ended up trading it. I found out with a such a short barrel, I couldn't run subsonic ammo because it caused numerous failures.

So yes, the short barrel will keep HV ammo subsonic and allow you to use cheaper bulk ammo, however you will be disappointed if you are like me & want as quiet a shooting experience possible. But if the bit louder report doesn't concern you then this is a great way to go.

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All good points Jim.

I haven't been tracking times since my last F4 got approved in March, but it's cool if the forms are coming back faster - means they're plowing through their backlog to the point where maybe one day it will be dang near instantaneous...wishful thinking I know.

I would go the trust route anyway because:

1) The cost of a trust (lawyer drafted or internet bought) is nothing compared to what you'll spend buying an NFA item on a Form 4 or building an NFA item on a form 1 plus the tax;

2) Anyone named on the trust can legally possess the item without you being present as that person is over 18 and not a prohibited possessor;

3) No CLEO signature or fingerprints required of anyone on the trust (ATF 41P has been postponed again);

4) Once the NFA bug bites, nobody buys just one silencer or SBR, and nobody builds just one silencer or SBR! All those items go into the trust for future disposal on a trustees' passing.

The biggest reason I see people foregoing trusts is the argument "I'm just gonna get one can/rifle"...see #4 above.

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M&P's and K Frames Pleeze!

Jim has been down this road so he knows what he's talking about.

I would also like to point out that standard velocity/match .22LR ammo (which is subsonic) is extremely quiet on my 4.5" 15-22 SBR. HV is subsonic out of a 4.5" barrel but suffers from chamber bark.

Standard velocity is quieter than factory labeled subsonic from this length. Standard Velocity/Match ammo is more reliable than factory labeled subsonic. CCI Standard Velocity is my gun's favorite quiet brand.

Several have stated they only have their paperwork on their phone but I thought I read from the ATF site you had to have your paperwork with the taxed item at all times??
The only reason I remember this is because I was wondering if you COULD just keep your "paperwork" on your phone( I want to do this) as electronic files for ATF review but I couldn't find anything saying you could or could not do this??
I already have a trust set up and will be buying a few NFA items soon so I want to know what you know.

Good read: Do I Need to Carry Proof of Registration for my NFA Firearm in Texas? | Experienced Texas NFA Gun Trust Attorney - Dealer Recommended

Basically, NFA law states that you have to have proof of registration on you, and provide it if asked by ATF agent, to include your trust. A copy of the form is proof. Since stamps are now provided electronically, electronic copies would have to be considered proof. The SPECIFIC clause is from 26 U.S.C. § 5841:

(e) Proof of registration
A person possessing a firearm registered as required by this section shall retain proof of registration which shall be made available to the Secretary upon request.


Second, the article goes on to point out that it is a felony to be in possession of an illegal weapon. However, since we are innocent until proven guilty, even if you showed up at your hearing with the NFA documents, you could not be found guilty of possession of an illegal weapon. Of course, just going to court to prove innocents is injustice enough....

In the case of a paper stamp, I've always been given two by the ffl - original and copy. I laminate the original and keep it safe...

Cheers... Remember, you are not a felon for having a properly registered NFA item.......

With the introduction of electronic filing, paperwork no longer is sent as stated by sithlord. It is just an electronic document just like what I keep on my phone & in the cloud on my website. So in both locations, I can bring up all my stamps plus my corporate annual report showing me as president. All I then would have to do is show my drivers license to prove I am that person so listed.

So when my actual paper stamps come in, those that right now can't be done online, first thing I do is scan them & save as pdfs or jpgs. The actual stamp goes in my lock box & the electronic versions go in a special folder on my iPhone & stored on my website.

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Similar to the discussion above...

The Form 1 says: Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrant’s proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request.

The Form 4 says: Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrant’s proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request.

Neither of those say immediately, on the spot, etc. Simply that they must be provided upon request. That's why a lot of people don't carry them on their person. They're tax forms, and aren't anybody else's business other than an ATF agent. There's also no statute that says the trust has to be with you.

The laws at a state level are a whole different situation. As is playing the "game" at a private/public range that you want to shoot at. You either follow their rules, or shoot elsewhere.

Carrying, and showing it, may make things easier...but not doing so is not illegal in most instances.

BigWalon is absolutely correct with the understanding that some states may require some sort of permit that will go along with your NFA form. Since I am in VA, I must have my state issued MG permit with me when the toys are out of the safe. Now, the easiest remedy is to have a copy of every form in the vehicle you transport in and I also keep copies in the cases I carry the guns in. Have had NFA items for over 30 years and never been asked to see a form.

Same as Ken. Copies in the truck and range bags.

I carry shrunken, laminated copies of all my F1's and F4's in a small folder that fits perfectly in the bottom of my range bag. I have never been asked to produce them, but would do so if requested by range staff, an LEO or ATF agent. I do this because I'd rather pony up the forms then get into a big urinating contest with pertinent people, especially those who could make life real inconvenient for me for a spell...

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M&P's and K Frames Pleeze!

Thanks for all your reply's. Sounds like keeping a copy of my paperwork with nfa items may save me a trip to the pokey if I run into that one rooky cop that doesn't know what a class 3 weapon is.

That storage compartment in the non functional buffer tube is the perfect place to store a copy of the forms for the SBR & suppressor. That way there's always a set of forms for the trustee when they have the gun on the range. Still keep copies of the trust & forms on the kindle app in my phone and a thumb drive in the usual range bags but really love the on board storage of the 15/22.