I've been looking at getting a .22 AR style rifle, and I'm having a hard time deciding between a 15-22 or a dedicated .22 AR. I live in the UK so this is the closest thing I can get to a real AR; Americans please note our laws are very different and prices much higher, I don't want this to be a thread about UK gun laws and prices.

Price isn't much of a problem, but like most people I don't want to get something expensive that can be done just as well by something cheap.
On that note, the 15-22 is far cheaper, around £600 ($900). It also has the same controls and looks as an AR, and fits most of the same parts (trigger assembly, pistol grip, buttstock etc). However, the lower and upper do not fit with real AR uppers and lowers, and it's polymer meaning it can feel cheaper and potentially break more easily.

A dedicated .22 AR is almost double the price at £1100 ($1700), and fits with all AR parts as opposed to 'most'. Notably it has a real , metal buffer tube, meaning it would be far less likely for the buttstock to break if dropped. The main advantages are that it's metal and therefore much more durable, and also fits with real AR uppers and lowers meaning when I get a .223 straight pull AR it would save me about £500 since I'd only need the upper.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks.

If you want the "real deal", you will be happier with a dedicated upper. There are many guys happy with the plastic look alike guns but I'm not one of them. Have you considered a 22 conversion kit for a 233 upper while you decide on or save for a dedicated upper?

Thanks for your input.

That's a good plan, I'll see if I can find one. Am I right in thinking that with a .22 conversion kit if I wanted to change to a .223 it would be as simple as changing the bolt and carrier?

Dont be a plastic hater. Try before you buy if you can. I think youll be surprized!
The 15-22 is the best semi auto AR style rimfire on the market.

I have tried it and I'm by no means a plastic hater, but I do much prefer metal. I think saying it's the 'best' is a little subjective, as it certainly has its downfalls compared to a proper .22 AR.

It is simple to swap to 22lr with the conversion kit. It's just the bolt and different magazines.

The .223 is a heavier bullet, so the twist rate of the barrel is going to 1 in 9 or so and to stabilize the lighter 22lr round, it would need to be 1 in 16.

So, it's not the same. It will shot and throw the lead downrange, but your grouping won't be as tight as it could be 1 in 16 twist. I would not get the kit, but instead get the dedicated 22 upper or the 15-22.

Mission drives the gear. What are you going to DO with the gun?

For fast paced matches like IPSC minirifle, 3GN .22 division and Steel there is not real drawback to the lighter, faster pointing plastic guns.

Which metal .22 AR are you going for? Not all are created equal.

And I seriously doubt a 15-22 will break if you drop it. Mine gets launched into the stowing barrels for IDPA DMG on the run and it hasn't broken yet.

KBK

I'm going to be using it as a multi purpose rifle; vermin/small game, casual target shooting/plinking and practical rifle.
I'm not getting a specific gun, I'm getting one custom made for me; the only premade ones my local store has are Aero Precision ones, and I don't want keymod. They have offered to test the rifle for me, specifically to make sure it cycles with subsonic hollow points when I'm shooting game.

I'm sure the 15-22 is a really durable gun but surely a metal AR would be even more durable? This is a fairly large investment and I want this gun to last me a good 6 or 7 years of abuse.

There's also the fact that if they for same reason take a large impact and were damaged, the dedicated .22 would maybe have a dent in it and depending on where it is it might still function, whereas the 15-22 would break and allow dirt in. I know S&W has a lifetime warranty but you have to send your gun to them, and the price of sending a gun out of the UK is slightly more than the 15-22 itself.

Sounds like you've already decided.

I think I would prefer a dedicated .22 AR but I want to try and get as much information, opinions and anecdotal evidence as possible so I don't end up regretting spending a lot of money.

For your use I don't think durability comes into play. A 15-22 isn't a toy and I don't think I've heard of anyone every breaking the buffer tube or any other part from dropping it. These rifle can handle a lifetime of use and still be passed down to a younger generation. The upside is that you have a lifetime warranty and an outstanding company backing this rifle.

Yes, a "real" AR will have a more heft to it, but in reality, so what? This is a 22, and for most 22 users, these rifles are about fun, and fun comes from putting rounds on target, which I'd argue a 15-22 will do better than an AR conversion simply due to the barrel twist in the 15-22 being built for the 22LR round.

I'm with "TheMaineEvent" IIRC I've only heard of one broken 15-22 broken buffer tube. Now I might not want to use it in a fight to butt hit a bunch of zombies. Think of it this way. If you get a .22 upper for a AR15 you now have two firearms in one. You also have a metal lower unless you decide to go with one of the polymer lowers they make. I've read that the .22 bolt conversion kits have a tendency to lead the barrel of a .223/5.56. You will suffer accuracy with the bolt conversion as a .22 is was made for a 1 in 16 twist rate.. I have two of the Chippa .22 uppers and over here you can find them for less then $200 and now, I think I paid $159 for my last one, they make a metal upper. Push two pins replace the upper and you have a 1 in 16 twist rate and can switch right back and not have to worry about a fouled barrel. Do a internet search about the bolt conversion. Here's one read for you.

Question Of The Day: .22 Upper or Drop-In Kit? - The Truth About Guns

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Psalm 23:4

FWIW...coming from somebody with a dozen or so ARs of various calibers (22LR, 5.7x28, 9mm, 5.56, 6.8, 300BLK and 50 Beowulf), over half of which are SBRs. And I'm counting my 15-22 as an AR. I don't swap uppers, I build dedicated rifles so that there are no compromises made. I build each one exactly as I want it.

That being said, I'd buy another couple dozen 15-22s before I bought a 22 conversion kit, and probably a half-dozen before even a dedicated 22 build...especially based on the prices you're giving.

The 15-22 does exactly what it's supposed to, every time it's supposed to do it. And that's even been true for mine, which has been cut down to a 4.5" barrel. It's not a metal AR...but my plastic handguns have worked just fine for years.

The ability to upgrade your 15-22 to some standard AR parts is a bonus. I started with the MOE version, so I've done nothing but the SBR conversion (had the barrel cut down, then shortened the factory handguard with a band saw). One of the major strong points of the 15-22 is the magazine design and function, and especially the reliability. Most of the same controls minus the FA, but I've never had to use the FA on any of my ARs.

As I said sending it to S&W for them to repair it is so expensive it would be cheaper to buy a new rifle, and they don't sell the parts for it so if it breaks I'm buggered.
The barrel wouldn't matter, the dedicated upper would have a .22 barrel with the right twist, and when I get a complete .223 upper it would have a different barrel.

I think I'll stay away from a bolt conversion then, thanks.

I don't feel being able to swap the uppers to have a different gun means making any compromises.
Why would you go for a 15-22 over a dedicated .22 though? As I said I have no control over prices, and I don't intend to get many guns; for now just a .22, then in the near future a .223 and eventually a .308/.303/7.62x54r.
You can get something called the Better Mag 15-22 which allows you to use 15-22 mags in a .22 AR and I'm going to be getting one of those if I go for a dedicated .22 because 15-22 mags really are the best .22 AR mags available. Forward assist doesn't matter to me either, I don't think I'd want to hit the back of a rimfire cartridge anyway.

What if you like a different trigger for 22 vs 5.56? Compromise has to be made.

What if I want a compact stock on my 5.56 short upper, something heavy for my 6.8 to hunt with, and something lightweight for 22? Yes, a simple swap, but still compromising over dedicated builds.

At least you don't have to worry about sights/optics, as they'd move with the upper.

If I was in your situation, it would all boil down to price. You said a dedicated 22 is roughly twice the price as a 15-22. I just don't think it's any better than a 15-22, much less twice as good.

Yep, well aware of that. If I was going that route, that's the way I'd do it as well.


Again...that's my opinion. You're not asking me to buy the rifle(s), so my thoughts are worth exactly what you paid for them.

In my particular situation I want a fairly light trigger and standard length stock for both. Given this fact it would be fine to not have a different lower, right?

That's a good point, but using the same lower for both would save me about £500 on a .223. A 15-22 is about £600 and a dedicated .223 is about £1600 for a total of £2200, whereas a dedicated .22 AR is £1100 and a .223 upper is £1200 for a total of £2300. Do you think the extra £100 is worth having a real full metal AR?

If having the lower configured identically for both, it would seem to be a logical conclusion that swapping uppers works for you.

I think you're putting too much weight to the polymer/metal part of the equation. If you'd rather spend the extra £100 and have "real" full metal AR, go for it.

I look at it as I could have two complete rifles for less money, and I don't feel like I'm losing out on anything as far as performance, reliability, or anything else. Even if it was reversed so that it was £100 more to have two rifles, that's the route I'd take. There's obviously a breaking point in that math at some point, but it's not £100 for me.

Is there anything in the lower that needs to be customised other than the trigger assembly and buttstock?
I don't think I am putting too much weight into metal over polymer, since if a polymer part breaks I can't buy another one from S&W, and as I've already said shipping costs mean it would be cheaper to buy a new rifle; but with metal if it breaks I can order another from any number of companies and get it delivered quickly and cheaply.

Why would you want 2 separate rifles assuming you had the lower configured the same way for both? Surely you get better quality parts by putting the same amount of money into 2 uppers and a lower as opposed to 2 uppers and 2 lowers?

Needs? Dunno. Wants? Sure. Stock, trigger, grip, trigger guard, ambi-safety, ambi-bolt release, magwell grips, etc.

To make it even worse, I've actually built all of mine the same. Everything from a 4.5" 22 to a 16.5" .50 has the same grip, stock, sights and optic. (The trigger in the 15-22 is the factory one, but I have standard triggers in the rest as well). That way, no matter what I pick up, they all feel/function the same. That setup leans towards your plan, but I prefer multiple rifles.

Two is one and one is none. Maybe I want to shoot a 5.56 and have my 8-year-old shooting 22LR? All kinds of scenarios of why I'd rather have two. Zombies?!?

But, it also seems as you've made up your mind (or at least real close to it)...and just want me to agree with you, which I'm not going to do.

Hi OP and welcome from a fellow Brit shooter,

I have to add to this whole thread just this,

I have a Smith and use it for plinking, target, some comps and also FUN shooting with friends on private land.

It works well enough for what it is built for and robust enough to take the chucking around and wear that it get from me and my friends and our kids.

It shoots plenty good enough with sub-sonics both with and without a sound mod, IF you are going rabbit bashing something to keep in mind, 1 shot is ALL you will get

Once you pull the trigger every other rabbit around WILL be gone including the one you aimed at if your trying to shoot too far out...NOT because of the sound of the round but because of the BOLT SLAP as the action cycles the next round in.

If you want to "Hunt" or as it is better known for FAC apps "Pest Control" then go for a dedicated and more accurate rifle "CZ or Similar" 1 shot, 1 click = 1 dead bunny and others still looking round all confused, which is what I use, CZ first, as the Pest Control and Range shooting was my reason to buy, then came the Smith for the more fun side with a Mil type look and feel.

As for AR swap outs, or Conversion Kits or Dedicated Upper, something to consider. A .223/5.56 will cost min of £1100 for straight pull then the conversion kit is another "200 - 300 "EMRR " prices for a BASIC rig with no frills, and you will need to be able to have slots for both calibres on the variation otherwise you cant buy both. Plus sights Mags etc etc

If you want a dedicated "Metal" .22 AR type rifle, then go for a Spikes or a Bradley Arms, both are "Metal" look good and "just like the real thing" however having seen both in "action" on a range they function no better than these little "Plastic" rifles and cost almost twice as much!!!

If you want to buy a Smith £750 for MOE approx, Plus optics mags sound mod......

CZ with SAK Sound MOD and Hawke Mid Range Mil Dot approx £500-550 if you buy new, there are also tons of used rigs out there for accurate pest control at a fraction of the cost.

As has been mentioned .22 through .223/5.56 barrel the twist rates are all wrong.

Here is the thing, at the end of the day, Due to being in UK you WILL end up paying over the odds for whatever you buy.

I have a 9mm SGC Lever Release, brilliant fun massive over the top prices,

Saving now for an AR (NOT Straight pull) so will be SGC Lever Release or who ever comes up with similar system when I have the coin together, but again it will be massively over priced just because its UK

EVEN knowing that and buying what you want to buy, there will always be the ADD ons that you just HAVE to have, so keep the cash a flowing.

Good trigger £250 plus, KNS Pins, MAGPUL this and that, Sling this, Eotech that and before you know it you have spent a small fortune, so just get what you want, pay what you pay and enjoy what you end up with.

Doesn't matter what it costs as long as it is what you want and does its job, then its down to you to hit what you point at...

Long winded but had to say what I wanted to say.

Rob

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Utrinque Paratus

I think by now I pretty much have, thanks for the help everyone.

Rob all i can say is Bonkers

keith

By hunting, I more mean plinking on private land and also getting a squirrel here and there; I mostly intend to use it on private land for the zero range you can have, since there's no restrictions on how much you can use the zero range.

From the place I'm buying from, a .22 AR is £1100, a straight pull AR is £1600 and a straight pull upper is £1100. As I said I've pretty much made my mind up about going for a real .22 AR and then a .223 upper since it would only cost £100 more than a 15-22 and a full straight pull rifle and I couldn't repair a 15-22 as easily as a real AR.

The £1100 for the rifle I'm looking at includes a full compliment of Magpul AFG and MOE furniture beside the handguard, which I want left plain.

It's not just for pest control though, it's for pretty much anything I want to shoot. I doubt a CZ would hold up too well in a practical rifle competition or speed shooting.

Thanks for your input.

"Price isn't much of a problem"

Hehe then why are you on a 15-22 forum...i'd have already put in a call to LanTac.

I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be wasting my money

I can't recall seeing any LanTac rifles for sale second hand, if you are serious enough about shooting comps and are willing to put in the work to become a better marksman then surely having the best equipment from a highly respected company, is uppermost on your priorities.
I know where my money would go

I agree 100%. After I got my first 15-22 I sold my conversion kit and never looked back. To me it was a no brainer.

OP if your only paying £1100 for a dedicated .22,then i can

see it only being basic entry level rifle.......to get that rifle

up to a decent level with optics etc then its going to be

nearer 3K.......Lantac are ok,Wayne at NWC makes up the

Spikes. but remember Spikes no longer make the ST22

due to poor quality control of their bolts several years ago....

Bradley Arms are good if you dont mind the long months wait

for a .22



Genuine Eotech from Viking at £1300





So OP if money is not a problem,then £600 for the super

reliable 15-22 is neither here or there..........but be warned

carrying around on your "hunt" an all metal AR type rifle fully

loaded with optics is no light weight matter

Keith

No expert at all here and I looked into this as well before i bought my 15-22. I do want and plan to get a "real AR" . the deciding factor for me was the fact that when i did step up to a real ar it would save me some cash BUT, I would lose a rifle (the .22) I know you can swithc back and forth between the two but that wasnt something i would want to be doing. I would rather have the 15-22 and an AR than have an AR i could turn into an 22. and back again. MORE GUNS IS BETTER Durability really is a NON issue in my opinion. Plus if you have friends you can take both guns out. Get the .22 and save a bit more for a real AR. I would give you my two cents but my opinon is only worth 1 Good luck!

I'm just talking about the rifle in this thread, not optics, and I'm getting it with a 2 point sling to mitigate weight issues. When I get a .223 upper and start shooting at longer ranges I might consider investing in a CNC trigger group or other things to improve accuracy, but for now it will be fine.

I'm not going to be using the .22 at the same time as the .223, and changing an upper doesn't exactly take much effort, so the 'upside' of having 2 rifles is a null point in my book. Friends I shoot with have their own rifles and shotguns, and if they wanted a go we would swap guns for a while.