***? Friends brass, case shrapnel hit my leg… Should rifle fire with open bolt?

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Out of battery detonation.

Definite failure of internal safeties, so, NO it shouldn't.

What rifle did that? The rimmed case suggests a lever gun, but there are semi-autos out there using rimmed cases.

Perhaps the firing pin was stuck forward due to fouling or rust. I'd have your friend clean inside the bolt and then test fire in a safe place.

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Keep your powder dry.

Hello, thanks for naming the situation, now I see many threads on "Out of battery detonation"... Vinny

Of course it was a SW 15-22, fairly new, both his and mine are about a year old.



With mine I have had two or three other instances of this BUT never a blown apart casing so I figured nothing drastic was happening / possible. Mine is a right-handed gun but I shoot lefty. When this happens with my gun there is a larger than normal explosion, more smoke and I felt some very small burning particles hit me (not brass in my failures). After failure, when I look there are two spent casings in the gun (one in the barrel). Only yesterday did my friends casing explode and a piece of it found my leg, luckily just my calf



Vinny

SHOULD a rifle fire with an open bolt? No, it should not.

WILL it fire with an open bolt? Based on the minimal information I can only guess - and my guess would be that this was either a hang-fire where your friend opened the bolt by hand and the round cooked off as it was ejected from the chamber or a very hotly loaded round that blew apart upon normal firing and the pieces were ejected (or blew out of) the chamber as the bolt cycled.

Since a 15-22 uses 22LR rimfire ammo, there is also a possibility that the round either failed to ignite normally or he didn't fire the round, cycled the bolt by hand, and the ejector caused it to ignite as it cycled the still-good round out of the chamber.

My last guess would be there was an obstruction in the barrel just past the chamber and when the round was fired the overpressure from the blocked round blew the casing apart and out the ejection port as the bolt cycled.

Again - just my guess.

My friend said it was a normal trigger pull... The exploded case remained in the barrel BUT he had to push it out (nothing but the exploded case came out). This was Federal ammo, just one hot round in the box? Any "guesses" on my other reports (today 6:42 am)?


thanks


Vinny

Vinny - So the sequence of events was:
1. Normal trigger pull,
2. Possibly stronger than normal impulse,
3. The bolt cycles open but does not eject the entire case, and
4. As the bolt cycles a small piece of the casing is ejected and hits your leg.

If this is correct then I'm thinking either barrel obstruction or overly hot load - either would over-pressurize the chamber and may damage the case causing a blow-out. My only other thought would be a very thin (way out of spec) or damaged/split case that couldn't hold standard pressure and burst.

The S&W M&P 15-22 has a well known history for "Out of Battery" firing. It is also very common for the extractor to be blown out of the bolt when the unsupported base of the case blows out (hence the case being left in the chamber). I lost count of the number of the M&P 15-22's we sold that had to be sent back for repair under the warranty. While S&W has continually claimed that "it can't happen", they have always repaired the M&P 15-22's sent back for examination and repair.
Just do a Google search for S&W M&P 15-22's banned from Appleseed Shoots and you'll see the issue is not a isolated incident.

I emailed S&W with the details (including brass being blown out of their gun) AND heard nothing back. It seems they (and folks here) are OK with it... I will call them... unbelievable!

Thanks for the update on the rifle type and ammo.

It is certainly an interesting, but unwelcome situation. I have never seen that happen, even when my rimfire semi-autos have been fired extensively.

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Keep your powder dry.

I've had it happen with Remington Golden Bullets. I don't use it anymore. It's very inconsistent and I've had it detonate outside of the chamber on multiple guns.

I actually had this happen to me several years ago. The extractor was blown out of the rifle when mine happened. My arm was peppered with brass, but no serious damage to my person. S&W is slow to answer emails. You need to call them. They'll email you a shipping label to return the gun to them. They will repair any damage and return it in a couple of weeks or so. This may have been caused by an overcharged round or it could just be one of those things that shouldn't happen but some how did. I was shooting CCI Stingers (hotter than normal 22LR ammo) at the time mine blew out.

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Or something like that . . .

It would have been helpful to mention the rifle was a .22 in the original post. In several responses it was obvious this was not understood from the photo.


Could have been an out-of-battery event, slam-fire, a stuck firing pin, or simply a case failure. All are possible and do happen with .22s.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

I am sorry BUT I found this exact forum "Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 Dedicated to the Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22" to start the conversation... next time I will... Vinny

Welcome to the Forum from S-C Pennsylvania.
I hope the issue is adequately addressed by S&W.
Please let us know how your friend makes out with his dealings with S&W. They take care of the vast majority of issues given a bit of time to do so.

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NRA Endowment Member

Was the rifle in question a Performance Center edition? I’m have observed more OOB discharges on the PC guns, due the the tighter chamber I guess. PC rifles and Remington ammo seem to be a recipe for disaster.

While size does account some for the fact that .22LR ammo is relatively inexpensive, lower quality is also a factor...

A year or two ago S&W put out a safety alert on M&P 15-22 bolts that were out of spec. On request, they would send a gauge for owners to check the bolt face. I think you can go to the Smith & Wesson web site you can find the info in the Safety Alert/Recall notices.

The recall was specifically for a shallow recess on the bolt face, possibly causing a slam fire. The OP indicated that this problem occurred when the trigger was pulled, not a slam fire. Good idea to gauge the bolt anyway, S&W will send the gauge so you can do it yourself.

The two rifles are not Performance Center edition... I am not aware of the difference, can you please tell me?



I have one of the 1400 round Remington Golden Bullet 22lr buckets sitting in my safe thanks Vinny

Just to give you another opinion. I have shot several thousand rounds of Golden Bullets through my two with no issues at all. They are a bit inconsistent, but they all function.

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Or something like that . . .

Before COVID I shot weekly club style Gallery Bullseye. Because these weren't Official NRA matches I shot up a lot of "Promo" ammo. (The cheap stuff, saving the good stuff for NRA matches)

About once a year I experienced a "blow out" that looked a lot like what I'm seeing in your pics. These were obvious over pressure "kabooms" since they were lauder and felt like a 9mm in my M41.

I just chalked it up to poor quality control. This Winchester promo ammo was so bad that rarely did anyone shooting it go through 100 rounds without a dud, squib or failure to go into battery!

Smiles,

Sorry to be tardy with my response. The Performance Center rifles had a longer, fluted barrel with a “match” chamber. The tighter chamber can cause the round to not chamber fully especially when the rifle gets a little dirty. The PC rifles seem to be less prone to OOB failures as they get broken in.

This is from S&W maybe related.

IMPORTANT! M&P15-22 CONSUMER SAFETY ALERT AND INSPECTION PROCEDURE

DESCRIPTION - Please Read This If You Have A M&P15-22 Rimfire Firearm.

PRODUCT AFFECTED:
ALL models of M&P15-22 rifles and pistols manufactured before February 1, 2019.

STOP USING YOUR M&P15-22 UNTIL IT HAS BEEN INSPECTED AND YOUR BOLT REPLACED (IF NECESSARY).
Smith & Wesson has identified two M&P15-22 firearms from recent production on which the breech face counter bore depth was not within manufacturing specification. In those firearms, the lack of depth may allow the bolt, upon closing, to crush the rim of the case, causing the round to fire, cycling the bolt, and potentially resulting in multiple discharges without depressing the trigger. This issue can occur in the following two scenarios:

1) With a loaded magazine in the firearm and the bolt locked to the rear, depressing the bolt release to allow the bolt to drop freely may ignite the round as the bolt closes without engaging the trigger and with the safety selector in either the safe or the fire position, and may also result in multiple discharges.

2) With a loaded magazine in the firearm, bolt in the closed position and a round in the chamber and the safety selector in the fire position, depressing the trigger will cause the round to fire normally, however as the bolt cycles, the next round may be ignited by the bolt crushing the rim of the case as it closes, causing multiple discharges.

We believe that these are isolated incidents, however, any unintended discharge of a firearm has the potential to cause injury. Therefore, we have developed this inspection procedure to ensure that all products in the field are safe to use. We are asking customers to perform the following procedure and to refrain from using their M&P15-22 until the bolt has been inspected and replaced as necessary.

DESCRIPTION OF THE PRODUCT INVOLVED:
The out of specification condition has been found only in bolts that were recently manufactured. While our investigation suggests that the incidents are isolated, we have established this inspection procedure as a precautionary matter to ensure that all M&P15-22 firearms in service meet our design specifications. We are asking consumers of all M&P15-22 firearms manufactured before February 1, 2019 to inspect their bolt for this condition.

REMEDY/ACTION TO BE TAKEN:
The bolt from your M&P15-22 must be inspected to determine whether it exhibits the condition identified in this notice. To determine whether your firearm is affected by this condition, please inspect your firearm by following the inspection instructions provided here.
DOWNLOAD INSTRUCTION MANUAL | VIEW INSPECTION VIDEO

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Goal Life Member
Traveling Man

Crazy! lol!

Glad you were not injured. It can happen, and not just with the S&W MP 15-22. Always wear that eye protection.

What ammo were you using?
I see it a lot in 22 autos with dirty or tight chambers firing out of battery.

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213th FBINA

Brittle brass will blow out at the rim on firing. Had this happen a few times over the years. Ammo maker will typically test then replace if this is the case. Brass may pass QC on shipping but fail 3 or so years later.

Any .22LR can blow out rims on firing with bad casings.

Recently have seen a few .22LR "hot" charged. Also some way underloaded. The other day saw one jam the bullet in the barrel. All were US made ammo, produced in last couple years. Not the best times at the ammo plants these days.

Not just recently, although not so bad as to blow case heads or stick bullets.
My Smallbore Prone friend is generally happy with SK Standard Plus, leaving Tenex and other High Priced Spread to the hotshots.
He can hold the ten ring with it but says if it goes BANG, he knows he will be likely to have a high nine, if it goes Ptooey, he knows he will have a low nine at best, maybe worse.

I had it happen to me with my Colt/Walther rail a couple of times in one brick. It's a good thing I had my shooting glasses on because one of them hit me in the face and glasses.

By the sound of them when they went off, they were hot loads.

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Blowback semi-autos have the capability to fire out of battery. How mush out of battery depends on fitting and tolerances,

It is not common because the vast majority of the time, everything works as it should. However, if something prevents the spring from being able to push the breech totally in battery, problems will occur. This could take the form of debris fouling the mechanism, or, with rimfire, excess wax on the bullet preventing full chambering.

Keeping the gun clean is an important safety consideration.

I am fortunate that one rimfire semi-auto I have does not (so far) fire out of battery. It does stop firing when debris builds up. Much better for it to stop working than fire out of battery, but that cannot be counted on.

I have seen quite a few 15-22 have out of battery failures. Often the extractor is also missing when inspected after. I don't know if the extractor is failing and somehow getting caught in the action impacting the primer. Or, if the out of battery ignition is somehow blowing out the extractor. Either way, it is a common enough occurrance that I was not at all surprised by your post....

I noticed (while working the action, unloaded) that my Rossi lever action will drop the hammer if you pull the trigger when the action is not fully closed. I've only done it with my thumb cushioning the hammer-drop. Never fully dry fired it that way. Kind of scary if you think about it.

Although the OP hasn't said the brand of ammo, I quit using Remington .22 LR ammo many, many years ago. Mostly because it was unreliable and inaccurate. As far as Remington centerfire ammo is concerned, I find the brass weaker than Federal, Winchester, CCI, etc. With reloaded brass, I've had more cracked cases and blowouts with Remington by far.

Both of my 15-22 s will drop the hammer ant time the trigger is pulled. In b
attery or out. Gotta keep it clean guys. Apparently they don't have safeties.

Both of my 15-22 s will drop the hammer any time the trigger is pulled. In
Battery or out. Gotta keep it clean guys. Apparently they don't have safeties.
As far as I know the only 22lr rifles that I own that WONT drop the hammer when out of battery is my Marlins. The Ruger 10-22 , the Remington 597 and the S&W 15-22 will. The Marlin 795 also wont fire without the mag.